Thanks so much for the responses, everyone! :D It has given me a lot to think about it, and I appreciate the feedback. ^_^
I'd consider myself very experienced with SD, and I am one of those people who is very sensitive to it...indeed the first time I tried it (half gram of regular leaf from Oaxaca) realized the full effects.
Euphoric or enjoyable? Not at all, and I consider 5-MeO-DMT both euphoric and enjoyable. That is not to say SD useless...it is an incredible entheogen that can be like DMT in the sense of there being helpers/beings/the salvia lady who tells you stuff.
I did try some over the summer but most of my experiences were a long time ago....and the plant would tell me of the future including things difficult to accept at the time, but subsequently turned out to be how things are. I have no doubt whatsoever that it is a valuable entheogenic ally to those who approach it with the right intentions.
Also mixed with mushrooms, or morning glory seed...there can be a euphoric aspect to it. And mixed with synthetics like 2C-T-7 or DPT, there can be a distinctive psychotic element to it so I don't recommend that.
Let me just start out by saying that I am so jealous! I've wasted so much money on salvia just trying to get my reverse tolerance low enough. If I could get effects from the regular leaves.... @_@
It sounds like you've had some pretty potent experiences with it.... The future stuff is particularly interesting. If you don't mind me asking, were those things communicated to you as abstract concepts or was there a lot of specific detail to them? Either way, it sounds quite incredible! I can't wait to venture further out with this plant....
As far as comparison to tryptamines go, I guess this is what I'd have to say about that.... I think the context of the trip may make quite a difference for me, more so than what's just going on at the basic chemical level. And I don't mean the setting, I mean the actual hallucinations and emotions they create. Like... I find all psychedelics that I've used sexual in some way, but it differs depending on which one I use. For example, if I was to look at my DMT experiences from an outsider's perspective and try to think of it like a story, I would say that there's nothing particularly sexual about it generally... aside from the fact that I find things like hallucination and ego loss in general to be stimulating in that way, regardless of the drug. But in the moment it can be quite sexual, but with the reason being the sheer intensity of the experience combined with the truckload of euphoria it causes. That would be a time when it
does feel mostly at the chemical level for me, like it's stimulating that same part of the brain that sexual excitement does, but not because of what I'm actually experiencing... you know? Kind of like the difference between getting a great high from using a stimulant and getting an equally great feeling from having something significant in your life work out exactly how you've been wanting it to. They both feel the same in a raw way, but I don't know many people who wouldn't choose the latter over the former if they could get it just as easily. Of course, with DMT there's obviously a lot more than just that going on too... but the amount of sexual stimulation I get from a drug is generally a pretty good predictor of how much enjoyment it gives me.
Then there are mushrooms. If I was to look at my trips on them in the same detached way, I
would say there was something sexual about them. However, it's not so much a pure stimulation as much as it is, like... empowerment. Mushrooms connect me directly to my subconscious mind in an extremely vivid way, and I do consider myself to be a highly sexual being.... When I'm on them, reality bends and twists in ways that reveal my inner self and all of the wonderful life concepts that that inner me seeks out. So it's basically like having my pleasure-seeking mind explode all throughout my perception. Because of that, I find mushrooms to be more sexual than DMT, even though the raw euphoria is a little bit less. And that's cool... but then there's LSD. LSD is not the most intense or the most inherently euphoric (not that it doesn't have a lot of euphoria too) of the psychedelics for me, but it does win out as far as context goes. If I try to look at my LSD trips from a detached perspective what I see is a dark, chaotic, ritualistic, high budget porno. DMT is sexual for me because it feels like an intense orgasm; mushrooms are sexual for me because they connect me fully to my sexual desires; LSD is sexual for me because Lucy is a dirty whore who knows how I like it. The context of the trip far outweighs any other factor I've experienced on other psychedelics... and that's the feeling that I got from salvia that I could compare to LSD. It's like the fabric of reality itself becomes highly sexual. I've certainly never found the pure body feeling of salvia to be on the level of serotonergic psychedelics for sure, but the context pushes it all the way up to the level of LSD for me; the similarities are uncanny. The main difference I would have to highlight as far as the emotional aspect of the trip goes would be like... Lucy is like just a crazy sexy chick, whereas Sally is more like a dominatrix.
I would very much like to mix salvia with typical psychedelics as well. The only time I have so far was on the tail end of a 2C-I trip, and it was just an amount barely even enough to hallucinate, but I was happy with what I got out of it. I'm eager to push further, though not really with 2C-I.... I'm kind of losing interest in any psychedelics besides tryptamines, and mescaline. Mixing it with mushrooms or LSD is something that interests me especially.... Thanks for the warning too, but I'm really not too bothered by psychotic trips, as long as they're temporary.... One of my favorite parts of psychedelic use is seeing how far out the human mind can possibly go, and it's always a learning experience.
Though to be honest when it comes to synthetic psychedelics I think I would like to add synthetic kappa-opioid agonists to the mix as well instead of just salvia; I've had a strong interest in the methoxymethyl and ethoxymethyl ethers of salvinorin B for some time, along with some untested ones such as 12-epi-salvinorin A, but particularly the first two. After thing things I've heard about them from the few trip reports that exist, I would love to stack them on top of something like high doses of miprocin.
yes, with respect.
the feeling it gives in general, is part of the experience, and it hurts to say it can't always be the most pleasant.
specifically in comparison with other compounds way of gracefully integrating you into the experience.
it took me an ass kicking or two, before i was able to accept and enjoy being shredded by the mother cheese grater .
nothing like a fat, respectfully timed hit before sleep or falling into another dissociate hole.
Hehehe, I love the way you described that.... I have to ask though, have you tried it by any route other than smoking? It would be a lot more gradual that way, and I've heard of people having pretty gentle experiences from it. That's part of why I'm so interested in it!
No I don't enjoy it. It's kappa opioid activity causes dysphoria consistently for me. I enjoy recreational hallucinogens though.
I would consider it recreational to anyone who did enjoy it, though.
I don't enjoy Salvia itself, but I appreciate the wisdom it has to offer immensely. I've done Salvia perhaps over a hundred times, including buccal and oral (tea) routes. I've broken through maybe once or twice. That's not why I do it.
My best experiences have been the subtlest, where I am able to meet the intelligence halfway, not be overcome by it. My single most beneficial experience was from a half a cup of Salvia tea. This is not supposed to be a chaotic plant. It's supposed to be quiet, subtle, slow-moving.
I'm 100% with you in that people overdo Salvia way too often, and don't give it enough respect, and really LISTEN to what it has to say. Its wisdom equals that of Iboga, mushrooms. People just don't give it a chance.
Can I ask how you made the tea? I've heard that that method can be fairly ineffective due to it being destroyed in the gastrointestinal tract.... How much product are you using, and how exactly are you preparing it?
I'm particularly interested in your experiences because I've been seeing more and more reports of people liking sub-breakthrough doses more. How strong are your experiences with it exactly, generally anyway? Is it mostly a psychological thing or do you get a good amount of visionary qualities to it as well?
I was never able to break through with my previous experiences, so I'm fairly indifferent towards it. I mean, there's that weird feeling of gravity (being pulled backwards or whatever), and my actions seemed to take pace before my body/mind would will them (like, I'd raise arm up, and then my mind would command my arm to raise up, etc. etc.). I'd really like to revisit the plant at some point, and see what it can really do.
To me it's never being pulled backwards, but generally to the left lol. It makes it so that if I'm up and moving about, spinning in circles as I go actually feels easier than moving in a straight line. But it also bugs the shit out of me because I'm kind of OCD about symmetry, and it makes me feel like I NEED to spin right as well to balance myself out, difficult as it may be.
I try not to walk around on it anymore haha.
That's nuts about the mind-body lag.... I've had things happen from other drugs where I move but I don't feel it until a moment later, but not like what you describe. That's very interesting!
I've only had regular leaf and while it was definitely strange and interesting, the line between "I feel something" and feeling like you just got hit by a psychedelic train (but in reverse) is hard to tread. The "entities" that you encounter were definitely interesting Also coming back drenched in a cold sweat is physically unpleasant. Lower doses just felt kind of like being in a funhouse where gravity is off.
I'm glad I tried it but don't think I'll ever touch the ounce I bought many years ago. Been there, done that, and moved on...
I don't actually get that cold sweat feeling anymore, at least not that I can remember.... I don't think I've gotten it since the first few times, like the mad laughter. It's pretty much an entirely mental trip for me now, no physical changes whatsoever.
That psychedelic train feeling is one of my favorite parts of it. X) It's just pushing too far and not really getting much other than intense dissociation that doesn't do much for me.... The visionary doses I found to be quite thrilling.
about as much as whippets which is not very much but it is an interesting herb especially in a mull mix.
I've heard that before, actually.... I had some friends who would love blending it with blue lotus and calea for an enhanced low dose effect. One friend also told me that they bought a synthetic cannabinoid blend with some in it and it caused hallucinations for them much more easily than others, which I thought was neat. It makes me wonder again about the downstream CB1 receptor activation.... What do you normally blend it with though?
Viṣakaṇṭha;11972612 said:
Awesome thread...this is one of my favorite substances! At a certain point in my life I was pretty extreme in my usage....generally several times a day for 3-5 days a week, sometimes all week (and this was done somewhere between a year or two). Strangely, while I consider it one of my personal favorites, I wouldn't say I've had too many euphoric experiences with it. Majority of the trips contained similar motifs....pressing, drowning, burning, a highly uncomfortable level of dissociation, even Lady Salvia herself took on the embodiment of a sort of malevolent Trickster God/Goddess archetype. Although all of these traits were actually what I had expected and were the reason I began my experimentation with the substance in the first place.
Honestly, my initial attraction was sadomasochistic in nature. And this did certainly have an extremely pragmatic benefit. Lol it seems kind of strange, but it often felt almost like a type of psychedelic UFC training of sorts, where I was attempting to push my limits of what I could handle in the entheogenic realm as far as possible. For this purpose, it most definitely worked wonders. I attribute my abilities at being able to work confidently with substances like Atropa Belladonna, Toad Venom, Strychnine, Datura etc to the early work I did with Salvia. It was the first great teacher I've had in communicating the darker aspects of the hallucinogenic realm to me...and for that I am eternally grateful.
After this initial phase of several months, I began to pick up more on the subtlety and nuance of the Salvia landscape itself. This drew me in even further, and really began my obsession with the plant. As MGS mentioned, I do find it can be likened to DMT in many ways...duration, intensity/breakthrough, entity contact, its own unique topography, etc. But everything about smoked Salvia seemed to fit more appropriately with my disposition...moreso than smoked DMT ever has. The aesthetics of DMT come off as too glossy for me, almost showy (eye-candy I would say), and it's very much in the aether realm, oftentimes overtly euphoric as well...whereas Salvia was fitted with earth tones, uncomfortable/vulnerable atmospheres, felt simultaneously otherworldly yet mundane (transcending dualisms), and required more work on the part of the psychonaut than most hallucinogens (which I liked, as it made for a more equal relationship). It seemed to be more of a head first dive into the Jungian Shadow-self....and I've always found there's much more growth to be had in this area. In addition, the entity relationship has been one of infinitely more depth for me (probably due to the way I view relationships). I would almost always prefer highly in-depth relationships with small numbers of people than more surface-level interactions with multiple persons. And this really plays out in the Salvia experience. The DMT world seems to contain multiple entities that often times display independent characteristics, and it can become hard to form lasting or intimate connections. Yet Lady Salvia's presence is always felt, even when in interaction with numerous beings, as it almost seems as if all entities met during the salvia trip are merely aspects of Lady Salvia herself...as they all display similar personalities, engage in similar actions, even seem to have the same sense of humor (again, I go back to the archetypal Trickster God). All these traits allowed me to develop a sincere love for the plant....despite its inherent difficulties, I found that it had more depth, more sophistication, and greater potential for learning than any hallucinogen I had tried up to that point.
But I will say that this was all with smoked extracts, generally 20x or higher. But I have experimented greatly with sublingual administration as well and find it to be an entirely different trip. Much more relaxed, gradual, and indeed euphoric. Its probably the only time where I've been able to say that I've found Salvia pleasant. Although I do notice (especially when doing this with close friends) that the feeling directly after an intense smoked extract trip can be *extremely* euphoric as well. So I guess it is a tough/in-depth question, but I do certainly think that potential is there for a euphoric or pleasant experience...but I also think that Salvia is a substance that rewards others heavily through interaction with the darker aspects of psyche. But its ability to do both really garners a lot of admiration for the plant in my eyes.
Hahaha, I would expect no less from you. XD I have something I have to ask about that.... Did you experience any sort of tolerance to its effects in that time? I know that the general consensus is that it exhibits reverse tolerance, and I've certainly noticed that as well, but I've also seen people who used it chronically say that it stopped being as intense for them over time. It really makes me wonder about what all mechanisms are at work here.... Interesting about the drowning and burning... those are both things I've actually found sexual in the past. I used to have sort of a dying fetish, I would fantasize about being a murder victim, and the moment at which my consciousness was severed from reality would bring orgasm. The murderer would also always be the personification of my subconscious mind/pleasure-seeking self, feeding off of the high emotions and chaotic aspect of the experience. I think about that a lot particularly in relation to things such as salvia, actually.... Was it anything like that? At that time in my life I had such a high level of anxiety that I was definitely just a little psychotic from it, very dissociated, and I really did have that constantly stressed and aversive feeling.... Since then I've also always had a thing where particular things - things that I won't mention here - which make me return to that same stressed frame of mind paradoxically also make me very horny. Sometimes I wonder if I didn't in fact shape some of my libido around dynorphin... so what you said there really intrigues me.
That's pretty cool though how you used it to train yourself for other substances, and definitely makes sense to me. On that note, I'm curious... how would you compare your experiences with salvia to those produces by tropanes? Have you noticed any significant similarities between the two? Even just the way you mention that salvia can be simultaneously otherwordly and mundane makes me think of the overall mindset of a deliriant, and your description of your motives as "sadomasochistic" strikes a chord in me as well, haha. One thing I can definitely say for sure is that, though the design of the entities that salvia generates for me is something I would sooner compare to LSD, the way that they're "rendered" did seem more similar to diphenhydramine for me than anything else I can relate it to.... This was especially obvious to me in a salvia experience when I faced my parents as entities, which has only ever happened for me otherwise on diphenhydramine, and they looked pretty much exactly the same in both experiences, though their actions (and the speed with which they performed them) were quite different. But overall, I simply also felt that salvia was the only thing that could cause such a severe disturbance in my perception of my actual surroundings in a way that still blended with them so seamlessly aside from diphenhydramine, so I'm just curious what your experiences have been.
Thanks for the awesome overview on your experiences with salvia.
Especially in comparison to DMT, that gives me a lot to think about.... It definitely makes me very excited to explore more of the plant, and even just kappa-opioid agonists in general. I'm also very happy that you got euphoric experiences with the sublingual method too, because I'm quite interested in that as well, and it's cool to think that it could make such a big difference, particularly since I already enjoy the smoked experience in ways.... Interestingly, I've never noticed any sort of high after coming down from salvia aside from those couple of experiences where I actually thoroughly enjoyed myself during the peak, and I just sort of think of those more like afterglows. I've heard of people getting that feeling, but all my other experiences - the ones where I was just very dissociated and confused the whole time without much of a real trip - just left me very spaced out and perplexed during my slow reintegration to reality. I wonder what makes for such a big difference?
Thanks again for the very in-depth post!
I have never enjoyed the come up on Salvia. Once I get past the come up it is very interesting, I would not classify it as pleasurable for sure.
A couple of years ago I used it a lot, I figured out how to breakthrough then as I was coming down do another “bump” to put me back in Salvia land without the horrible come up. I could do this about 3 times so I could hang out in Salvia land for a little bit and actually get comfortable.
One thing about Salvia is I almost never came to clear conclusions, I would just be like WTF...?
Other substances like DMT will integrate so nice as I come back and turn into insights and revelations about myself and life. This almost never happened for me with Salvia. It was just like dropping into a bazaar world and then stepping back out.
I find that very interesting, considering that my absolute best session with it was focused around the second and third hits which were much more enjoyable.... Around how high would you normally aim dose-wise for each of this hits?
Salvia has definitely more often than not been mainly weird for me, but I haven't had an incredibly diverse number of experiences with it yet. I've certainly heard of a lot of people getting insights from it though. But for me, even just the crazy visionary stuff I would find insightful.... Any look into the workings of the human mind is always a treat for me, and gives me tons and tons to think about and try to relate to my everyday life. Even the most fucked up, random hallucinogenic experiences teach me something, probably more than almost anything else has ever taught me honestly.
I've got a hard time figuring out what a proper dose is for SD. Not even sure if there is an appropriate dose (for me). I've tried it ~10 times in 7 years. Every time has been unpleasant.
No, I don't enjoy it. Sweating like a shower, rolling around on the floor while my dogs think it's ok to jump all over me....no thanks
Tom
As I mentioned before, I don't get the sweating thing anymore... though I barely ever did before either. It might disappear with more experience too, I guess. I'm also lucky to not get the crazy movement, rolling around on the floor and stuff... at least not that I've noticed. Supposedly even when I'm at the fully dissociated delirium point I just kind of lie there... though that tends to be the case with me for most hallucinogens. I was fortunate in the neurochemistry lottery in that way I suppose. Though, I suppose a particularly strong experience could still one day prove me wrong. >.>
What doses have you been trying? Have you used plain leaves or only extracts?
Yes. Of course. I don't know why people get so scared or get unpleasant reactions on Salvia. It's just hard to figure out what's happening on Salvia, because it has its own way to play and I respect that. When you do Salvia, everything is clear as water. Salvia is a show in all genres. Drama, horror, comedy, adventure, fantasy or even nonsense! If you want to press the "play" button, just enjoy the show and learn something that you can't learn in no book!
I love this description. X) It's good to see that there are people here who enjoy salvia! You seem like you've had a good amount of experience with it. How often do you use it?
