"Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False"

[Psyduck]

"Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False"

Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature is Almost Certainly False is a 2012 book by Thomas Nagel, Professor of Philosophy at New York University.

I am not going to review the book. Look here, here, and here. Or the wikipedia page

In the book, Nagel argues that the materialist version of evolutionary biology is unable to account for the existence of mind and consciousness, and is therefore at best incomplete. He writes that mind is a basic aspect of nature, and that any philosophy of nature that cannot account for it is fundamentally misguided.[1] He argues that the standard physico-chemical reductionist account of the emergence of life – that it emerged out of a series of accidents, acted upon by the mechanism of natural selection — flies in the face of common sense.[2]

Nagel's position is that principles of an entirely different kind may account for the emergence of life, and in particular conscious life, and that those principles may be teleological, rather than materialist or mechanistic. He stresses that his argument is not a religious one (he is an atheist), and that it is not based on the theory of intelligent design (ID), though he also writes that ID proponents such as Michael Behe, Stephen C. Meyer, and David Berlinski do not deserve the scorn with which their ideas have been met by the overwhelming majority of the scientific establishment.[3]

The section on the wikipedia page has many more links.

Discuss.

 

[L2R]

i can see papers being written called "hey tom, what's it like to be batshit insane?"

 

[ebola?]

I haven't acquainted myself with the arguments in full, but what precludes consciousness as emergent in nature?

ebola

 

[-=SS=-]

"In the book, Nagel argues that the materialist version of evolutionary biology is unable to account for the existence of mind and consciousness, and is therefore at best incomplete."

Couldn't agree more with that statement. The truth is quite simple and in everyone's face every minute of the day. Why are we aware? If our brain is a kind of computational computer, which it seems to be, and we have all these gestalts and robotic like behavior, which we clearly do, then how is it we are watching all of this taking place inside this machine we call a body? Why are we not like an actual robot that runs according to program but has no true awareness. Saying it does or we don't is sophistry.. the immediateness of our experience is always there.

I also agree with the not scorning ID proponents. I'm not religious.. I don't worship, pray, light smelly candles or dance half naked in mud.. but it is pretty apparent IMO that there is clearly some kind of "design" for lack of a better word to the mechanics, biology, etc we see around us. The idea this all just happened by sheer luck, that the Universe itself popped out of nothing for no apparent reason (most retarded scientific theory currently).. I'm amazed people can believe that AND it gets accepted as a realistic explanation AND rationalized as "science".

The materialist neo-darwin scientific paradigm is a blatant attempt at social engineering, for both corporate and ruling interests. If you look at those who promote or side with that type of thinking they tend to be seriously enchanted by consumerism, bright lights and colourful technology.. and just accepting the steam rolling of freedom, future planning etc by our treasonous leaders.

 

[thujone]

I'm starting to enjoy how you wrap up a thoughtful post with revolutionary rhetoric

I was reading through the first link, this looks like some deep shit, I'll have to come back to this

 

[Foreigner]

The materialist neo-darwin scientific paradigm is a blatant attempt at social engineering, for both corporate and ruling interests. If you look at those who promote or side with that type of thinking they tend to be seriously enchanted by consumerism, bright lights and colourful technology.. and just accepting the steam rolling of freedom, future planning etc by our treasonous leaders.

I would go a step further to say that the ruling elites have all of the true knowledge about our nature locked up in the tower, and material reductionism has been made to replace all of it as the explanation for "spirit". But based on the behaviors of these elites, I don't think there is genuine, high level understanding happening. If there were, they would not be shaping the world in this way. So my understanding is that they have simply locked away the knowledge, but don't necessarily know how to use it themselves. It's amazing how many archeological discrepancies there are that contradict our historical time-line as taught, yet the dogma is still that we are the most advanced humans that ever roamed the earth. They're just hindering everyone's advancement for their own power games. Fortunately we all have the answers inside of us, but without proper guidance most people will not actualize that inherent information.

The very, very ancient world knew way more about what we are, why we're here, and how to use our true potential than we do now. The only sources of some of this very old info that I've been able to find are in the Daoist texts. Christianity destroyed our connection to all that in the western world, but the East still has much of it in tact if you know where to look. Unfortunately, the disease of western dogma is spreading everywhere, and the few non-elites who possess the texts or the working knowledge are not about to advertise themselves. I totally understand now why lineages operate in secret... they don't want to be invaded and destroyed by those seeking power.

 

[In Dubio]

Quick question. If the holographic principle is true, i.e. the universe is a simulation, does ID replace random mutation as most likely to be true?

Edit: Not necessarily. Mutations could still be random.

 

[Ksa]

People like to believe what comforts them. They grew up with their mother telling them sweet stories at night, now they want another story, that death is not the end, that God is watching over them, protecting them (a bit like their mother did)...that they will go to heaven and rejoice in the warmth of God's presence.

Darwin...takes away their comfort. Their faith. I mean...he's a bad man! Who the Hell he thinks he is? Coming here, disturbing their peace and waking them from their dream. I mean, if people don't go to Heaven, where do they go? Where do the dead ones go? Where do we end up when we die. They found a Chinese mummy of a wealthy lady who ate until a cholesterol chunk blocked her heart valve. In her sarcophagus they found the food she liked most, they found her pets...she had taken everything with her.

Insane woman. What is she trying to do? She surely didn't eat much in the last 3,000 years because the food was intact. You see, the minute man raised on his feet and said "I", he lost all hope of ever answering those questions. We all came into existence from nothing, so nothing is required for life to continue, not even life itself since we know that after the big bang there was no life, only plasma and life created itself from scratch.

You just gotta let go of your identity and let creation handle it. It did a good job so far didn't it? Before you all existed, you weren't in control...you didn't plan your oncoming onto the world, nature did. So why do you want to control things now? Didn't nature do good so far? LET GO.

 

[ebola?]

If the holographic principle is true, i.e. the universe is a simulation

This is not what the holographic principle states. Rather, it posits that the information contained as a description within a volume can be expressed in terms of a membrane that sets the boundaries for that volume. From this, one can posit that it would be possible for the physical behavior in that 3-space to be a 'mere' 'image' of a more fundamental description of the context set by the enveloping membrane, but this is not similar to a "simulation" per se.

ebola

 

[rickolasnice]

I honestly don't see how the materialistic version (is there another version?) of evolutionary biology is unable to account for the existence of mind and consciousness.

But if consciousness is teleological then what of plants or amoebas?

 

[-=SS=-]

I honestly don't see how the materialistic version (is there another version?) of evolutionary biology is unable to account for the existence of mind and consciousness.

Even materialistic science talks about multiple dimensions in the far out mathematical contemplations. There is no reason to believe that this material dimension is the only one that there is, or to believe that other dimensions are made of the same stuff this one is. Once you know mind is not limited to the brain then you understand it is moving through another dimension/space when not bound up in this one. And science has nothing to say on this as it deals strictly with the material dimension first (which is the correct way, you can't take material measuring devices into a dimension made of non-material stuff). "Occultism" deals with this other dimension but not in a way that will ever satisfy materialist scientists.. which is unfair, you can't expect another dimension to behave according to your wishes in a material fashion!

I think science accounts for bodily consciousness and awareness pretty well. Psychology, which should be looking at the mind, is where science has failed. It has accepted materialistic limits on itself before bothering to really investigate what is actually there. Fortunately we all have access to ourselves so any man/women is able to prove things for him/herself without the need for approval by scientists.

 

[Ksa]

Even materialistic science talks about multiple dimensions in the far out mathematical contemplations. There is no reason to believe that this material dimension is the only one that there is, or to believe that other dimensions are made of the same stuff this one is. Once you know mind is not limited to the brain then you understand it is moving through another dimension/space when not bound up in this one. And science has nothing to say on this as it deals strictly with the material dimension first (which is the correct way, you can't take material measuring devices into a dimension made of non-material stuff). "Occultism" deals with this other dimension but not in a way that will ever satisfy materialist scientists.. which is unfair, you can't expect another dimension to behave according to your wishes in a material fashion!

I think science accounts for bodily consciousness and awareness pretty well. Psychology, which should be looking at the mind, is where science has failed. It has accepted materialistic limits on itself before bothering to really investigate what is actually there. Fortunately we all have access to ourselves so any man/women is able to prove things for him/herself without the need for approval by scientists.

So let's put awareness in 12 dimensions while keeping the rest in 3-dimensions because it suits our beliefs? Lol. If you put awareness in 12 dimensions, you have to put everything else too or it's incompatible with our world, like anti-matter meeting matter, it would cause a huge explosion.

You can't say:

1 apple + 1 cherry = 2 apples

If awareness is in several dimensions, so is everything else.

He's trying to keep his hopes up that there's something greater and, like a conspiracy theory, we have to die to see it lol. When you die you leave space and time, and when you leave space end time you're off the map completely. You don't exist. Wether you call it soul, awareness etc. finished. The good part about being nothing is that you can become anything, the bad part about being something is that you can't be anything else in the same time.

 

[-=SS=-]

^ Post completely irrelevant to this thread. Plus these pointless comparisons (what the fuck does fruit have to do with any of this..) and personal attacks towards me make you look like a total fool.

 

[Ksa]

^ Post completely irrelevant to this thread. Plus these pointless comparisons (what the fuck does fruit have to do with any of this..) and personal attacks towards me make you look like a total fool.

My post was very clear and contained no person attacks. Someone with different beliefs then yourself may sound insulting because you attached ego to what you believe but it's all wrong. The only personal attack vs. you was when I asked you to produce your proof, and you could not so you got mad. My fault?

Like I said in my other post, I'm willing to help you understand this and show you the mathematical calculations done by Brian Greene. Shouldn't a brother help another brother in hard times?

 

[rickolasnice]

Even materialistic science talks about multiple dimensions in the far out mathematical contemplations. There is no reason to believe that this material dimension is the only one that there is, or to believe that other dimensions are made of the same stuff this one is. Once you know mind is not limited to the brain then you understand it is moving through another dimension/space when not bound up in this one. And science has nothing to say on this as it deals strictly with the material dimension first (which is the correct way, you can't take material measuring devices into a dimension made of non-material stuff). "Occultism" deals with this other dimension but not in a way that will ever satisfy materialist scientists.. which is unfair, you can't expect another dimension to behave according to your wishes in a material fashion!

I think science accounts for bodily consciousness and awareness pretty well. Psychology, which should be looking at the mind, is where science has failed. It has accepted materialistic limits on itself before bothering to really investigate what is actually there. Fortunately we all have access to ourselves so any man/women is able to prove things for him/herself without the need for approval by scientists.

Science has plenty to say on this. It isn't. It's a construct of the brain. The illusion leading to belief that you are capable of travelling through other dimensions with the mind is thanks to a complex biological organ called the brain.

I believe you said before about remote viewing? So your mind is moving through another dimension to view the physical world. It's along the same lines as having an out of body experience. You may think you are floating above your body and seeing the physical world but you're not.. It's an illusion happening within your brain. (And yes I have had several out of body experiences.. they're cool). How the flying f word could these be forever un-testable by scientific means? It's like me saying I've been in your room and you asking me what bed sheets you have for me to say "you can't prove i wasn't so therefore i was".

Say you are right. Your mind is part of another dimension which is unreachable by us in the physical world.. that your mind can do things such as leave it's physical body yet still see the physical world. Oops. It's now reachable. Seeing the physical world means it is testable to be reality or imagination, for we too can see the physical world. Seen the future, eh? Well one day the future will become present. When that happens we can test your "unreachable" mind theory.

What was your mind doing before you were born?

 

[Foreigner]

When you die you leave space and time, and when you leave space end time you're off the map completely. You don't exist. Wether you call it soul, awareness etc. finished. The good part about being nothing is that you can become anything, the bad part about being something is that you can't be anything else in the same time.

How do you know this is what happens? I mean... why are you so certain? If it's faith then I understand, but if it's anything else then I don't see how you can possibly know.

 

[Ksa]

How do you know this is what happens? I mean... why are you so certain? If it's faith then I understand, but if it's anything else then I don't see how you can possibly know.

I don't these are just my beliefs. What I do know however from Brian Greene is that for the world to stay together, all its fundamental elements must be in the same number of dimensions.