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  • Current Events & Politics Moderators: deficiT | tryptakid | Foreigner

NSA surveillance thread

I think one of the most amusing things is the egg on the faces of all the people on forums like this one who called people who speculated on such an operation paranoid and tin foil hat wearers.

I have always maintained that if it is technically feasible, and the gain power from it, then of course they are doing it!

Expect it to get worse as technology progresses.. Pre crime... Never say never
unfortunately most quickly wipe the egg off, and claim that they too had foreseen this, and that it is nothing really.

The media is effective mind-control. Combine that with class-pressure(socioeconomic status), and when someone feels uncomfortable from your comments they are limited to a couple go-to moves;
1. repeat the toned down version that the media broadcasts ("oh they need a warrant, and there's nothing of detail, and...")
2. call you a conspiracy theorist and ask where your 'tinfoil hat is'

If that fails you are getting dangerously close to being a protestor or even the T-word.

There is no room for critical thinking, no room for spreading awareness, or encouraging democratic change.

Most don't have a clue what you are talking about, and those who do are happy enough with their middle-class lives that it isn't worth it to rock the boat. And people that want to rock the boat range from annoying to the enemy. You are either with us or against us.
 
What I am saying is I know its all just speculation now - but do you think they are listening to our phone calls - audio records? the ammount of data it would take to store every single phone call going on at any moment in the US is far too much for even them... I can see maybe texts but even that...
 
What I am saying is I know its all just speculation now - but do you think they are listening to our phone calls - audio records? the ammount of data it would take to store every single phone call going on at any moment in the US is far too much for even them... I can see maybe texts but even that...

It depends what we're looking at. A FISA warrant could be applied to a specific phone system, and either everything is saved, or (more likely) pattern-matching of voice data for certain words or other data would flag certain conversations to be saved.

So it would look like this:

1. FISA warrant (rubberstamped - unless you want to trust the integrity of secret government courts).
2. Warrant allows gov't to listen in on a phone system.
3. Phone system records all calls.
4a. If a certain word is heard during a call, or if the call is from/to a specific number, etc, the call is saved.
4b. If none of the criteria in 4a is met, the call is deleted.
5. Metadata about the call is preserved (as it is normally).

That would be a powerful tool.

Now, that would only apply to the US, or calls made by a known US citizen. NSA likes to listen to other peoples' conversations. It spies outside of the US, and for that, steps 1 and 2 can be skipped. As far as I know, the NSA can even trade our listening to other people (say a British terrorist cell in the UK) for information the UK has (say a US citizen in the UK that the UK is monitoring). Such a trade would not violate US laws, AFAIK, since the NSA would not be directly responsible for snooping on the US citizen's phone calls.

This assumes the NSA is following the exact letter of the law. Considering these programs are secret, I'd imagine there's more than a bit of fudging going on.
 
...all the people on forums like this one who called people who speculated on such an operation paranoid and tin foil hat wearers.
would you provide links to a handful of posts exemplifying this. if it's ad widespread as you imply, you shouldn't have much trouble finding, say, 5 examples.

alasdair
 
I pretty much agree with Escher's Waterfall.

As far as actually saving audio - There's a number of ways. The most obvious guess would be saving a short (month or less) worth of audio. Voice to text is pretty easy and could be stored as data. Scanning for certain words is easy. Deleting most of the stuff after a month, as long as it doesn't contain buzz words, makes sense. There's no value in that audio. If there was a market for it, then sure. There's also some probability that someone has thought of a smart way to log phone audio records. Lots of smart people right now working hard to come up with good ways for the NSA to do this.

As far as warrants and all that, they can look into anything they want, any time they want. Anything that looks profitable to whatever conglomerates and industrial complex's that have access, can be looked at and listened to without a warrant for their benefit. They just can't admit that they looked at it, or legally use it against you.

Also have to be aware of profiling. The whole purpose of data-mining is to find profitable(or unprofitable) patterns. If you fall into a pattern, then more of your data will be analyzed than the typical citizen. If you become an economic enemy, you could easily be targeted. It's about big business as much as it is about national security.

It depends what we're looking at. A FISA warrant could be applied to a specific phone system, and either everything is saved, or (more likely) pattern-matching of voice data for certain words or other data would flag certain conversations to be saved.

So it would look like this:

1. FISA warrant (rubberstamped - unless you want to trust the integrity of secret government courts).
2. Warrant allows gov't to listen in on a phone system.
3. Phone system records all calls.
4a. If a certain word is heard during a call, or if the call is from/to a specific number, etc, the call is saved.
4b. If none of the criteria in 4a is met, the call is deleted.
5. Metadata about the call is preserved (as it is normally).

That would be a powerful tool.

Now, that would only apply to the US, or calls made by a known US citizen. NSA likes to listen to other peoples' conversations. It spies outside of the US, and for that, steps 1 and 2 can be skipped. As far as I know, the NSA can even trade our listening to other people (say a British terrorist cell in the UK) for information the UK has (say a US citizen in the UK that the UK is monitoring). Such a trade would not violate US laws, AFAIK, since the NSA would not be directly responsible for snooping on the US citizen's phone calls.

This assumes the NSA is following the exact letter of the law. Considering these programs are secret, I'd imagine there's more than a bit of fudging going on.
 
the ghost of George Carlin said:
49310Carlin.jpg

el Corazon <3
 
I'm not too concerned about the nsa or even the cia. The last time, as best I can recall, that either of them got anything right was the rfk assassination.. Snowden could have made a fortune by selling his info to one of the mailing list companys.
 
It depends what we're looking at. A FISA warrant could be applied to a specific phone system, and either everything is saved, or (more likely) pattern-matching of voice data for certain words or other data would flag certain conversations to be saved.

So it would look like this:

1. FISA warrant (rubberstamped - unless you want to trust the integrity of secret government courts).
2. Warrant allows gov't to listen in on a phone system.
3. Phone system records all calls.
4a. If a certain word is heard during a call, or if the call is from/to a specific number, etc, the call is saved.
4b. If none of the criteria in 4a is met, the call is deleted.
5. Metadata about the call is preserved (as it is normally).

That would be a powerful tool.

Now, that would only apply to the US, or calls made by a known US citizen. NSA likes to listen to other peoples' conversations. It spies outside of the US, and for that, steps 1 and 2 can be skipped. As far as I know, the NSA can even trade our listening to other people (say a British terrorist cell in the UK) for information the UK has (say a US citizen in the UK that the UK is monitoring). Such a trade would not violate US laws, AFAIK, since the NSA would not be directly responsible for snooping on the US citizen's phone calls.

This assumes the NSA is following the exact letter of the law. Considering these programs are secret, I'd imagine there's more than a bit of fudging going on.

Do you really think they actually need a warrant or court order, to view archived data, and that the calls and all other data are actually deleted?

They also collect far more than just phone calls or records of phone calls.

Don't forget the place in Utah that's been operating for years that collects and stores pretty much every single bit of information out there, including phone calls, emails, this post/topic, and well pretty much everything. http://rt.com/news/utah-data-center-spy-789/

But this has been known about for awhile and the American and world public who have the attention span of gnats will forget about it in a few months when they are distracted by something new the media tells them about something completely different.
 
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I think one of the most amusing things is the egg on the faces of all the people on forums like this one who called people who speculated on such an operation paranoid and tin foil hat wearers.

I have always maintained that if it is technically feasible, and the gain power from it, then of course they are doing it!

Expect it to get worse as technology progresses.. Pre crime... Never say never
Yup it's true. I have seen it on this forum and on other sites.

As for pre-crime like in the PKD story that was used for the movie minority report there's already this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_fingerprinting and I'm sure they would love to develop something else that actually allows them to read people's thoughts.
 
Evo Morales routinely fucks with the DEA. That's why he was pulled over. I'm amazed he hasn't been assassinated.
 
A surprisingly good read about the false choice of security vs. privacy.

"You can't have 100 percent security and also have 100 percent privacy," President Obama said on June 7, in his principal public statement in the issue, suggesting there is some dial which forces government officials to pick one over the other.

It's a false choice, say many security experts.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/privacy-vs-security-false-choice-poisons-debate-nsa-leaks-6C10536226

It is great to see something like this from a major media outlet. We will see how long they keep it up online, NBC has a penchant for publishing some pretty great articles criticizing the wealthy elite and US government, which on occasion tend to spontaneously disappear.
 
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Some newish material adumbrated in this NYT piece from yesterday:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/u...oadens-powers-of-nsa.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

In Secret, Court Vastly Broadens Powers of N.S.A.

WASHINGTON — In more than a dozen classified rulings, the nation’s surveillance court has created a secret body of law giving the National Security Agency the power to amass vast collections of data on Americans while pursuing not only terrorism suspects, but also people possibly involved in nuclear proliferation, espionage and cyberattacks, officials say.

The rulings, some nearly 100 pages long, reveal that the court has taken on a much more expansive role by regularly assessing broad constitutional questions and establishing important judicial precedents, with almost no public scrutiny, according to current and former officials familiar with the court’s classified decisions.

The 11-member Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, known as the FISA court, was once mostly focused on approving case-by-case wiretapping orders. But since major changes in legislation and greater judicial oversight of intelligence operations were instituted six years ago, it has quietly become almost a parallel Supreme Court, serving as the ultimate arbiter on surveillance issues and delivering opinions that will most likely shape intelligence practices for years to come, the officials said.

Last month, a former National Security Agency contractor, Edward J. Snowden, leaked a classified order from the FISA court, which authorized the collection of all phone-tracing data from Verizon business customers. But the court’s still-secret decisions go far beyond any single surveillance order, the officials said.

“We’ve seen a growing body of law from the court,” a former intelligence official said. “What you have is a common law that develops where the court is issuing orders involving particular types of surveillance, particular types of targets.”

In one of the court’s most important decisions, the judges have expanded the use in terrorism cases of a legal principle known as the “special needs” doctrine and carved out an exception to the Fourth Amendment’s requirement of a warrant for searches and seizures, the officials said.

The special needs doctrine was originally established in 1989 by the Supreme Court in a ruling allowing the drug testing of railway workers, finding that a minimal intrusion on privacy was justified by the government’s need to combat an overriding public danger. Applying that concept more broadly, the FISA judges have ruled that the N.S.A.’s collection and examination of Americans’ communications data to track possible terrorists does not run afoul of the Fourth Amendment, the officials said.

That legal interpretation is significant, several outside legal experts said, because it uses a relatively narrow area of the law — used to justify airport screenings, for instance, or drunken-driving checkpoints — and applies it much more broadly, in secret, to the wholesale collection of communications in pursuit of terrorism suspects. “It seems like a legal stretch,” William C. Banks, a national security law expert at Syracuse University, said in response to a description of the decision. “It’s another way of tilting the scales toward the government in its access to all this data.”

cont. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/07/u...oadens-powers-of-nsa.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

All 11 FISA court judges were appointed by this guy, who's beginning to resemble George Hearst from Deadwood:

220px-Official_roberts_CJ.jpg
 
That is pretty fucked. One dude who was appointed by some dude who was barely voted in (some would say stole the first election) now gets to appoint 11 dudes who are then, "regularly assessing broad constitutional questions and establishing important judicial precedents, with almost no public scrutiny". Not only this, these 11 assholes have further tarnished the international image and trampled over the constitutional rights of 316,199,000 people. Sadly, the global image that the US has earned is by and large justified.

I find it interesting the quote says "almost no public scrutiny". Did the 11 appointees perhaps ask the opinions of their partners on what they thought? From what I have seen there is absolutely NO public scrutiny going on because there is NO transparency. The ONLY reason there is any form of scrutiny going on today is because these assholes got caught!!!

I think in this situation a MAXIMAL invasion of the privacy of the government is warranted to protect the rights, safety, and well being of US citizens.
 
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