I've been ITCHING to do X/Molly....thanks for this

[electrodevo]

Im not so sure about the adverse changes however being reversable. There is a lot of evidence out there to suggest this is not infact the case.

There is also a lot of evidence to suggest that this is not the case. The studies in other words conflict at this point. Based on what I observe, in my opinion it is not permanent. But my observations are not the same as a scientific study and I agree that you never know. I think brain neurotoxicity has been definitively observed at very high level single doses but we don't know at this point how this translates to heavy frequency moderate use.

Sure, MDMA is not 100% safe, and the we is especially food for thought for those who do it every week. But what is? In America, football is our national sport and people play it without thought. This despite the well documented permanent cognitive risks in *that* sport from too many helmet-to-helmet contacts (in addition to many other physical risks). That sport actually makes MDMA's risks look kind of mild in my opinion. Like everything, if you play it smart, you balance the risks and rewards.

 

[futura2012]

There is also a lot of evidence to suggest that this is not the case. The studies in other words conflict at this point. Based on what I observe, in my opinion it is not permanent. But my observations are not the same as a scientific study and I agree that you never know. I think brain neurotoxicity has been definitively observed at very high level single doses but we don't know at this point how this translates to heavy frequency moderate use.

Ive not actually seen a scientific study that claims the damage is reversable I have only seen studies that claim there is no damage. I think certain aspects of long term comedowns etc ie anxiety loops are reversable but I am not convinced about issues such as damage to the pre frontal cortex, memory damage etc. I would struggle to see how that is reversable. My own memory now is terrible and has been for a while im not so sure its gonna come back.

Sure, MDMA is not 100% safe, and the we is especially food for thought for those who do it every week. But what is? In America, football is our national sport and people play it without thought. This despite the well documented permanent cognitive risks in *that* sport from too many helmet-to-helmet contacts (in addition to many other physical risks). That sport actually makes MDMA's risks look kind of mild in my opinion.

Interesting comparison im not sure if your average football player would agree with you. I think a lot of the risks of MDMA are very slow and subtle most of the issues with it I noticed in my 30s until reaching 30 I felt no symptoms. Personally I wouldnt say the risks are mild when you look at what can potentially happen with anxiety, memory loss etc but everyone to their own.

Like everything, if you play it smart, you balance the risks and rewards.

100% agree

 

[Folley]

Ive not actually seen a scientific study that claims the damage is reversable I have only seen studies that claim there is no damage. I think certain aspects of long term comedowns etc ie anxiety loops are reversable but I am not convinced about issues such as damage to the pre frontal cortex, memory damage etc. I would struggle to see how that is reversable. My own memory now is terrible and has been for a while im not so sure its gonna come back.

Did you look?

Repeated systemic administration of various doses of MDMA (5–20 mg/kg twice daily for 4 consecutive days) results in dose-dependent decreases in 5-HT, 5-HIAA and 5-HT uptake sites. Increasing the number of injections of MDMA resulted in progressively greater reductions in 5-HT and 5-HIAA which occurred prior to decreases in 5-HT uptake sites. In contrast, no significant changes were observed in the density of norepinephrine uptake sites following single or repeated injections of 20 mg/kg MDMA. With respect to neuronal regeneration, following an initial 90% loss of 5-HT uptake sites after treatment with MDMA, the recovery of these sites occurred over a protracted period of time; a marked 25% reduction was seen at 6 months and the concentration of 5-HT uptake sites returned to control levels at 12 months following treatment with MDMA.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0091305788901554

Also, notice the doses they are giving. 5mg per KG is the LOWEST dose, 20mg per KG the highest. 1.5mg/kg is what is regarded as safe for humans. They say the damage was also dose dependant, obviously meaning that the more you dose the more damage that is done.. but the reverse of that is that if you dose less, less damage is done. That's what BL stresses.


and obviously, that study can't cover ALL parts of the comedown from just shooting up mice with grams of MDMA, but it shows at the very least there is some recovery and eventually they get back to "control levels"

 

[futura2012]

Also, notice the doses they are giving. 5mg per KG is the LOWEST dose, 20mg per KG the highest. 1.5mg/kg is what is regarded as safe for humans.

and obviously, that study can't cover ALL parts of the comedown from just shooting up mice with grams of MDMA, but it shows at the very least there is some recovery and eventually they get back to "control levels"

It does also say some decreases were noted in rats and guinea pigs but not mice.

Certainly a risky study to base your conclusions of reversability on as a mouse brain is going to be quite different to a human brain.

Also the reported damage is not just serotonin neurons - some studies also indicate prefrontal cortex, hippocampus and amygdala issues

Sure some recovery over time is going to happen but would someone recover 100% from taking MDMA over a period of time? Its certainly a risky assumption if thats what you think.

They say the damage was also dose dependant, obviously meaning that the more you dose the more damage that is done.. but the reverse of that is that if you dose less, less damage is done. That's what BL stresses.

From everything I read pretty much everything agrees with this 100%. Common sense dictates this also.

 

[Dresden]

I wouldn't recommend a newbie go out and buy "ecstasy" or "molly" or whatever simply because the MDMA scene here (southeastern US) anyway is and has been in shambles for years. If they have a testing kit, and it tests right, then sure take it. But in general I have found looking for real beans to be a waste of time and money for 10 years now. It's enough to make me think the government is WINNING the war on drugs, not losing it.

 

[StrutterGear]

It's harm reduction. By taking drugs you are assuming and accepting adverse risks, but these can be reduced to an 'insignificant' risk in the larger scheme of things. If you think taking MDMA is 100% safe then you are wrong. Everytime time you consume processed foods you're increasing your cholesterol and the chance of a heart attack. Everytime I pick up 12.5g of tobacco and smoke it in a day, I am increasing my chance of lung cancer or any other related cancer for the future significantly.

You do the same when you drive to work, or walk to the shop, or do anything. These are the risks you accept, and MDMA is a risk I accept. I've been MDMA since I was 16 and feel I've recieved a net benefit, but there have definitely been draw backs.

The horror stories you see on this forum do not reflect the general experiences of 99% of the pill popping population. This forum is concentrated with these stories because people only post here when they need help (which they will recieve). People out enjoying themselves don't generally need to tell a stranger on the internet they have done so.

 

[swedger77]

My own memory now is terrible and has been for a while im not so sure its gonna come back.

Does explain why you keep repeating yourself over and over in multiple threads.

BTW are you actually from the UK?

 

[swedger77]

I think a lot of the risks of MDMA are very slow and subtle most of the issues with it I noticed in my 30s until reaching 30 I felt no symptoms. Personally I wouldnt say the risks are mild when you look at what can potentially happen with anxiety, memory loss etc but everyone to their own.

100% agree

Sounds like.............your getting older.

Maybe your noticing the side affects of a drop in testostrone, which occurs naturally especially into your 30s and 40s.


Here is the symptoms:-

Reduced sex drive (libido), difficulty achieving an erection (erectile dysfunction)
Increased fatigue and lethargy; diminished energy, sense of vitality, or sense of well-being
Depression, anxiety, irritability
Difficulty achieving orgasm
Decreased muscle mass and strength, reduced exercise stamina
Obesity
Excessive sweating and night sweats
Loss of body, facial and pubic hair
Increased breast tissue (gynaecomastia)
Poor concentration and/or memory
Insulin resistance
Loss of bone mass (osteoporosis)


But it'll be the MDMA...100% fact

 

[Darksidesam]

In my experience.

Its only when you abuse mdma that you notice any real depression from it.

If you have low/No tolerance, you can enjoy a tested 100mg cap that will make you buzz for about 3-4 hours, that should be enough surely there are many other drugs out there that make you buzz a lot less.

I have taken just 94mg before and felt something,

It's up to you how deep you want to go obv the more you take, the more serotonin you are depleting so you will be more likely to feel depressed.

Lastly, a thing to take into consideration is if you have been on anti-depressants such as SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) such as Citalopram, fluoxetine (prozac), sertraline (zoloft) as i think these actually downregulate your serotonin system / 5htp receptors.

 

[swedger77]

Anti-depressants are the most over prescribed drugs going. Doctors seems to prescribe them with out too much persuasion. eg 1 in 10 Americans over the age of 10 is "depressed" and on anti-depressants.

Time and time again, exersize proves to be as good and in some cases better than prescribed anti-depressants.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Exercise-and-Depression-report-excerpt.htm

This is one of many studies that backs this up.

 

[Exstazy]

Until I read this....I wanted X in a bad way....


I have a frined that went through the serotonin drop, depression....that didn't deter me at all...Reading all this, has. Not worth it. I don't want the depression. Thanks BL members.

I've done MDMA 2 days in a row, first time I did 400mgs and rolled way too hard, I never really got depressed or anything. I felt a bit off and fucked up after doing it 2 days in a row.. lasted 3-4 days. Let me tell you, if it's real MDMA.. it's worth it ;P The best drug there is today probably

 

[Dresden]

At least half to 3/4ths of the people who come on here and say, "Ecstasy ruined my life," probably didn't have real MDMA to begin with. For example, they could have been doing MDPV. I read something once on the internet in 1994 that I think still applies today: "MDMA is a damn safe drug." I mean, sure you can OD from anything (even water), but MDMA just doesn't cause the damages the scientists would have you believe. The amount they give those animals is off the charts; no sane user would self-admininster those dosages.

 

[2cAlex]

Screw that, go out and shove a gram down your throat in a night. That's what I did.

 

[swedger77]

My own memory now is terrible and has been for a while im not so sure its gonna come back.

Interesting comparison im not sure if your average football player would agree with you. I think a lot of the risks of MDMA are very slow and subtle most of the issues with it I noticed in my 30s until reaching 30 I felt no symptoms. Personally I wouldnt say the risks are mild when you look at what can potentially happen with anxiety, memory loss etc but everyone to their own.

Sounds like.............your getting older.

Maybe your noticing the side affects of a drop in testostrone, which occurs naturally especially into your 30s and 40s.


Here is the symptoms:-

Reduced sex drive (libido), difficulty achieving an erection (erectile dysfunction)
Increased fatigue and lethargy; diminished energy, sense of vitality, or sense of well-being
Depression, anxiety, irritability
Difficulty achieving orgasm
Decreased muscle mass and strength, reduced exercise stamina
Obesity
Excessive sweating and night sweats
Loss of body, facial and pubic hair
Increased breast tissue (gynaecomastia)
Poor concentration and/or memory
Insulin resistance
Loss of bone mass (osteoporosis)


But it'll be the MDMA...100% fact

did you consider this possibility Futura?

 

[shimazu]

what was the OP's point besides trying to get people to convince him of something because he pussed out over a drug that might give you problems if you already had a bag of problems before using it anyway

 

[Hapomen22]

If you can't deal with the depression, post mdma sadness, then you shouldn't use drugs in the first place. When you go up, you must comedown and sometimes pay the price. Although, the price to be payed in usually pretty cheap if you use moderatly and use the HR techniques presented on this forum.

 

[futura2012]

Does explain why you keep repeating yourself over and over in multiple threads.

BTW are you actually from the UK?

I can only assume from this you must be bored and looking for some kind of meaningless argument. if you would like to engage me in some kind of discussion in regards to some of the posts then I am all ears but making comments like this is just mindless.

did you consider this possibility Futura?

My obsevations of what has happened to me is based on a progressive build up of symptoms. The symptoms got specifically amplified during my first comedown and now in my second the symptoms are accute. I am not saying where I am will happen to everyone but I would say the issues I have been through are a direct result of taking MDMA and some other drugs.

I do accept that if I had followed HR from the age of 21 when I started taking MDMA then things would be different.

I dont accept the argument that this is a drop in testosterone because the identical symptoms just got 100X worse in longterm comedown. I am positive the problems I am faced with are a direct result of drugs with MDMA a lot to blame.

At least half to 3/4ths of the people who come on here and say, "Ecstasy ruined my life," probably didn't have real MDMA to begin with.

So whats this statistic based upon? Your own anecdotal opinion maybe..

I read something once on the internet in 1994 that I think still applies today: "MDMA is a damn safe drug." I mean, sure you can OD from anything (even water), but MDMA just doesn't cause the damages the scientists would have you believe. The amount they give those animals is off the charts; no sane user would self-admininster those dosages.

Not sure if many would agree with you MDMA is a damn safe drug. Like with all drugs it has its pros and cons.

Interesting comparison to line up a neurotoxic drug with water to make out it is safe.

You are referring to a single report where rats were dosed with high mg/kg. That report is a about 10 years old now this is a very old MANTRA repeated on here by people like sheep. There are numerous other reports that also report negatives from MDMA not involving high dosing of rats.

Maybe you could elaborate on why you think the scientific reports are wrong. Perhaps quote a journal that proves your point otherwise this is just total speculation.

If you can't deal with the depression, post mdma sadness, then you shouldn't use drugs in the first place.

There is a very big difference between Tuesday Blues and full on long term comedown. A Tuesday blue experience then I would say shrug it off and get over it.

However, I would say if this comment is steered towards people with long lasting anxiety, depression, panic attacks etc then I am kind of confused why you wish to be in Harm Reduction Forum in the first place. Why dont you go to Drug Forum and tell everyone about the wicked buzz you had last weekend rather than tormenting sufferers in this way.

Anti-depressants are the most over prescribed drugs going. Doctors seems to prescribe them with out too much persuasion. eg 1 in 10 Americans over the age of 10 is "depressed" and on anti-depressants.

Time and time again, exersize proves to be as good and in some cases better than prescribed anti-depressants.

This I 100% agree with. I have been through virtually every family of antidepressant and none of these drugs achieved anything other than misery.

 

[swedger77]

Futura do you think that constantly banging on about how bad your feeling is not helping you achieve a positive outlook, and by repeatedly going over the same thoughts of "I'm depressed", "I'm have a long-term comedown" (a Bluelight term), "I suffer anxiety", "my memory is failing" you are just enforcing these ideas further into your mindset.

From Wiki "Positive mental attitude (PMA) is the philosophy that having an optimistic disposition in every situation in one's life attracts positive changes and increases achievement. It employs a state of mind that continues to seek, find and execute ways to win, or find a desirable outcome, regardless of the circumstances. It opposes negativity, defeatism and hopelessness."

Your on here what feels like every day repeating the same negative shit. Maybe take a break, go get some serious exersize (one of the best anti-depressants) and try and pull yourself out of the impending doom mindset.

Have a read about using ketamine as an anti-depressant. Very interesting and there are many reports on bluelight about very positive anti-depressant effect of K. Its got to work better than typing the same posts day in day out.

 

[testocyp]

I would say its pretty safe to use MDMA if you are a responsible person, that is, don't fucking abuse her. If you abuse sweet eve she will comeback ten four and fuck your ass so bad u wish u wouda been a methaddict instead. Just sayin. Be eaze on her and she be eaze on you.

 

[Maya]

I would say its pretty safe to use MDMA if you are a responsible person, that is, don't fucking abuse her. If you abuse sweet eve she will comeback ten four and fuck your ass so bad u wish u wouda been a methaddict instead. Just sayin. Be eaze on her and she be eaze on you.

I wish i woulda just been a methaddict lolls!