TDS Is it wrong to help a friend "in need" when your clean?

[Jabberwocky]

Dude u have way too much invested in this. I didn't even read ur entire post.

In the end u can believe whatever u want, I'm just giving u a different perspective. If u wanna consider urself clean on subs then ur lying to urself, simple as that. Take it how u will but I've been in this game a long time and I know the general concensus of "clean time" amongst AA/NA and therapeutic communities. u wanna know the truth, most ppl I know (including a majority of AA/NA community) laugh whenever someone on subs/done tries to claim clean time

Why do I feel strongly about it? Bc I feel calling yourself clean is something you earn, and usually takes alot of time and agony. Real clean time does anyway. Not taking some drug everyday and calling urself clean bc it sounds nice to say and makes u feel better about about urself. The cold hard truth is your not.

You say subs don't give you euphoria? Try not taking it for a few days and see how euphoric u feel. But right, who are we to tell you? You came to us for advice and were giving it. Sorry it's not some bubblegum 5th grade "everybody wins" kinda response. You touched on a subject I obv feel quite strongly about, and it came out in what I said and I stand by it. My reasons are none of ur concern. I'm not gonna dumb it down for u because I may hurt ur feelings. Grow the fuck up dude not everyone's here to please u

We'll see how much your view changes when you try stopping ur subs. And if u never stop taking them then you've just proved my point even further

you know, your harsh, abrasive and frankly offensive attitude and tone you put towards people here on TDS when they're in trouble with opiates is alarming. of course you can mention that they aren't technically clean as they still have a drug in their system, but actually, in some cases where people have been abusing heroin for 10+ years and they turn to subs that no longer get them high but alleviate their withdrawal, keep their mind stable, and make them able to function properly and lead a normal life - i'd say they were clean.

there are many people that simply cannot live without opiates. i think thats a fact that YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT. instead of being judgemental and flinging abuse at people because they've been off gear for the past 5 years of their life but have been on maintenance so they can lead a life the same as "normal people", perhaps its time for you to grow up and face the fact that they have achieved a hell of a lot by doing what they have.

frankly it shows how pathetic you whole "YOUR NOT FUKIN CLEAN IF UR ON SUBS" stint was. you can't even be bothered to read what a perfectly good individual has got to say regarding the subject. then you tell him to grow up? why do you even come to these threads to post your crap, and then when someone defends themselves against your rubbish, you act like a 5 year old child? it's people like you that really grind my gears.

 

[bennyZA]

Dude u have way too much invested in this. I didn't even read ur entire post.

Are you kidding me? You go on a tirade against me, then try to play cool: "like... I don't read your whole posts... cause, like... I know I'm right. I like... don't want to debate anything rationally... because, like, looking at the other side of the debate is so not cool." You are basically saying that no matter what I say, you are going to be right and not even look at contrary opinions. Fucking ignorance....

In the end u can believe whatever u want, I'm just giving u a different perspective. If u wanna consider urself clean on subs then ur lying to urself, simple as that

Seriously bro, I have been trying to be super chill about this, but I have to defend myself when you attack me personally. You could rewrite your posts and be contributing to this conversation without any problems but instead, since you take this so personally, you write personal attacks on me and my beliefs, saying you can't stand me and that I'm a liar. Oh, and no matter what, you are correct?

I know the general concensus of "clean time" amongst AA/NA and therapeutic communities. u wanna know the truth, most ppl I know (including a majority of AA/NA community) laugh whenever someone on subs/done tries to claim clean time

Congrats... I think YOU guys have certain criteria that YOUR group uses to consider YOURSELVES clean. Which is cool, your group does amazing things for people, but YOUR philosophies and YOUR rules apply only to 12 steppers. I'm not in NA/AA so why do I need to justify myself to that particular group of people. Oh, and I hate to inform you that AA/NA is not the only form of treatment, or the only way to be drug free. Does your criteria for being clean pass over chain smoking cigs and pounding coffee? Those have powerful and addicting chemicals. I mean, I could slander AA right now, but that's just pointless. I know when to bite my tongue and keep things civil... think about that.

Why do I feel strongly about it? Bc I feel calling yourself clean is something you earn, and usually takes alot of time and agony. Real clean time does anyway. Not taking some drug everyday and calling urself clean bc it sounds nice to say and makes u feel better about about urself. The cold hard truth is your not.

Are you me? Were you my friend for the last couple of years? Do you know my story? How do you know what kind of agony I had to go through? You think I wanted to get clean so I just asked a doctor for a script for subs then now just call myself clean? If that was the case, I could see where you were coming from, though I still wouldn't agree with you. Also, since you don't take the time to read my posts, you would obviously not realize that I'm in intense - nearly unbearable - pain and need something to help that's not a traditional narcotic, which is another reason for me to take subs, but since you're set in your views, you don't care. You know, I could say some things about how many times you've probably relapsed if you take being clean so seriously, so damn seriously, but I won't... think about that too.

You say subs don't give you euphoria? Try not taking it for a few days and see how euphoric u feel. But right, who are we to tell you? You came to us for advice and were giving it. Sorry it's not some bubblegum 5th grade "everybody wins" kinda response. You touched on a subject I obv feel quite strongly about, and it came out in what I said and I stand by it. My reasons are none of ur concern. I'm not gonna dumb it down for u because I may hurt ur feelings. Grow the fuck up dude not everyone's here to please u

Hmmm, from the words of a mod "Regardless of him being clean, he is seeking advice on something unrelated," so I didn't ask you for your opinion on subs and sobriety. You think that after a year on them I've never gone a few days without subs, well, it's happened more than once, and I've never felt euphoria since the third day of being on. You have no idea what you're talking about. Unless you stalk me... wait... you don't stalk me, do you? If you don't, how do you know what I went through to get sober. So don't tell me I didn't go through hell.

I mean, my question was completely unrelated, it was: is it bad to help out your best friend when they're desperate and dope sick? This whole response - you realize - is not about hurting my feelings, it's about coming into this thread and the only words out of your mouth are personal attacks on me, SINCE YOUR FIRST POST. Oh and "your reasons don't concern me?" Then why the fuck are you using this thread as a soapbox. Does that means that in every single thread that mentions sobriety and Subs you chime in and insult the OP? Really, that's your m.o.?

I'm not gonna dumb it down for u because I may hurt ur feelings. Grow the fuck up dude not everyone's here to please u

You know, you're right. Not everyone is here to please me. Sickofthisshiz obviously agrees with you, but I have no problem with his post, you know why? Cause he didn't personally insult me. He contributed his opinion to the subject without saying "I'm a child," "I can't stand people like you," "You should grow the fuck up," "I'm not going to dumb it down for you." (obviously implying that I'm dumb...)

We'll see how much your view changes when you try stopping ur subs.

You don't know anything about me, at all. If you did, you'd know that I take breaks every once in awhile. I get them prescribed for pain because I abused the regular narcotics they gave me. So I pretty much use them only when I'm in pain, as needed; maybe a few days in a row, then stop for a few days. But you already knew that, didn't? You know everything about me after all.

Please, READ THE WOLE POST, you know why? Cause we could have a rational, calm, and informative debate. Let's take a step back and let's be real... I know that you're probably a bright guy that has been coping with addiction just like all of us. I don't dislike you or anything, like I said, you're probably a good person I can see how you are passionate about this, but it has no place in this thread. Seriously dude, why do you care so much about how I - a none 12-stepper - feels about a certain issue that affects your community but not mine. Everyone walks there own path. What I consider clean is what I consider clean.

 

[Ksa]

To be honest I don't think you're doing wrong. In actuality I think you're doing right - as if the guy is determined to use and will do so regardless of whether you give him stuff or not, you're helping him a lot as subs will stop him going to score on the street (and possibly end up in jail, or get bad gear) and will also perhaps give him a little something by means of how to stop - as subs will block his cravings, stop the dope from working and possibly change his mind on things. I don't think you're doing anything wrong, you're doing good, and he should be grateful he has a friend like you.

It intrigues me on how that's a useful thing. Let's cut off my balls and penis because I crave sex. Lol. I could name by the fingers of my hand substances that block my cravings, and I would rather take cyanide than that.

The man might get high on opioids responsably since forever and not have an addiction issue. You're castrating the man without knowing what's up!

 

[Phenyl-B-Cordial]

Your taking my opinion as a personal attack against you which wasn't the objective. My comment was more in response to you saying suboxone classifies you as clean yet you refer to giving your friend subs as helping him get high. I'm more pointing out the contradictions in your post than passing judgement on you or your lifestyle

You're.


It implies ownership.

You are. It's a contraction.


Personally, I'd never give someon shit if I were using a contraction improperly. Even if my opinion was shitting on the likes of Kant, Shakespeare, Blake, Dante, etc ad infinitum.

 

[Ksa]

You're.


It implies ownership.

You are. It's a contraction.


Personally, I'd never give someon shit if I were using a contraction improperly. Even if my opinion was shitting on the likes of Kant, Shakespeare, Blake, Dante, etc ad infinitum.

Cute multi account

What was your other?

 

[Phenyl-B-Cordial]

Cute multi account

What was your other?

Que?

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Personally, I think you're risking going back to your addiction days by giving your friend suboxone. Its not by doctor's order.

 

[footscrazy]

Getting back to the question at hand:

Now the real issue is what if he hits me up again in say, two weeks, begging me. I don't know if I could see him sick or get hurt trying to get it off the street. Is hooking him up once every few weeks a bad thing? I certainly have the subs to spare. I'm leaning towards yes, it is a bad thing. If he asks me again, I'm just going to say I'm out.

I'm curious as to why you are leaning towards thinking it's a bad thing? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, I am just interested in why you feel the way you do. I'm not completely clear either on what your friend is using them for - whether he's using them because he has a habit and wants to avoid getting sick, or whether he's using them to get high. I get the impression he's using them to get high.

My opinion on the general question of whether it's 'right' to make drugs available to another person, is that ultimately, it is their choice to use. In the past I have given a few people their first taste of a variety of drugs, including highly addictive drugs like meth and heroin, if they have asked me to help them out. In some cases, they've gone on to develop problems on the substance. Of course, I don't like that. I don't like to see my friends struggling with addiction, because I know how fucked it is. But I don't necessarily feel guilty for introducing them, or that it's my fault. I think that everyone is responsible only for themselves. They make the choice to use.

It's not black and white though. Every situation is different. I don't feel like it's right to encourage someone to take a drug that could be harmful, or to offer it to them. I also think that if you're experienced/educated on a specific substance, you should try and impart that knowledge to whoever you're introducing to the substance.

I think ultimately it comes down to what you think is right. You are not responsible for the choices someone else makes, and if your friend has asked you about your opioid contacts, it does sound like he has already come up the idea that he wants to use. That being said, I think it's also completely legitimate to not help him out, because you think opies would be a negative influence on his life, and you don't want to enable that. But I don't think it is morally, or intrisically wrong, to help him out.

 

[Get2Think]

Getting back to the question at hand:



I'm curious as to why you are leaning towards thinking it's a bad thing? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, I am just interested in why you feel the way you do. I'm not completely clear either on what your friend is using them for - whether he's using them because he has a habit and wants to avoid getting sick, or whether he's using them to get high. I get the impression he's using them to get high.

My opinion on the general question of whether it's 'right' to make drugs available to another person, is that ultimately, it is their choice to use. In the past I have given a few people their first taste of a variety of drugs, including highly addictive drugs like meth and heroin, if they have asked me to help them out. In some cases, they've gone on to develop problems on the substance. Of course, I don't like that. I don't like to see my friends struggling with addiction, because I know how fucked it is. But I don't necessarily feel guilty for introducing them, or that it's my fault. I think that everyone is responsible only for themselves. They make the choice to use.

It's not black and white though. Every situation is different. I don't feel like it's right to encourage someone to take a drug that could be harmful, or to offer it to them. I also think that if you're experienced/educated on a specific substance, you should try and impart that knowledge to whoever you're introducing to the substance.

I think ultimately it comes down to what you think is right. You are not responsible for the choices someone else makes, and if your friend has asked you about your opioid contacts, it does sound like he has already come up the idea that he wants to use. That being said, I think it's also completely legitimate to not help him out, because you think opies would be a negative influence on his life, and you don't want to enable that. But I don't think it is morally, or intrisically wrong, to help him out.

What about your choice to say no because their your friend and you know meth and heroin never ends well. Because it doesn't. This is total dealer denial, the cop-out where you forget that it takes 2 to tango, and you put all of the initial decision & consequences on the other party.

I don't mean this as a personal attack to you footscrazy, just that mentality in general which I personally feel is a big part of the hard-drug epidemic in this world, if that makes sense.

 

[footscrazy]

I did say:

That being said, I think it's also completely legitimate to not help him out, because you think opies would be a negative influence on his life, and you don't want to enable that.

Like I also said, it's not a black and white situation. There's lots of different factors to consider, that will be unique to each situation.

 

[bennyZA]

To answer your question Footscrazy, he is using it to get high. This is my oldest friend, and not surprisingly, we both developed addiction problems. I know everything about him and him, me. I just know that night he was going to spend all his money and all his time trying to score. I figured ok, he'll take some subs gratefully, then scratch his itch. So far..... so good! I gave him 2 x 8mg... A couple days after his first taste (2mg at a time insufflated) he called me, telling me how nauseous he was. Since then he hasn't tried to score.

Like I said - besides a lively debate on subs while recovering - I tend to agree with most people who said it's not the wrong thing to do and to not make it a regular thing.

My opinion on the general question of whether it's 'right' to make drugs available to another person, is that ultimately, it is their choice to use. In the past I have given a few people their first taste of a variety of drugs, including highly addictive drugs like meth and heroin, if they have asked me to help them out. In some cases, they've gone on to develop problems on the substance. Of course, I don't like that. I don't like to see my friends struggling with addiction, because I know how fucked it is. But I don't necessarily feel guilty for introducing them, or that it's my fault. I think that everyone is responsible only for themselves. They make the choice to use.

Footscrazy, I know how you feel about introducing some people to different drugs. You know, as much as I'll go to help out someone, I have so little patience for first-timers that I try to avoid the situation all together. If I am with someone, saying we're tripping on acid and it's his first time, I'll make them read the entire Erowid LSD page and the experience reports, so he knows what he's getting into. Cause once I'm tripping/nodding/rolling/skiing etc. I'm in my own world (that's the whole point of the drugs, in my case) and to have to leave and have to take care of someone is the worst. Luckily, I've never introduced anyone to a highly addictive drug. I'm such a extroverted / compassionate person, I would probably make it my mission to help them out. I've always been the one who's been introduced

 

[Wolfmans_BrothEr]

Benny may be a fine person who's reasonable but your tantrums against me aren't earning you any points. You accuse me of attacking and offending you but your doing the same exact shit to me. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but your coming off like a tool. Stop instigating me and making all these accusations like "oh well you must be the all knowing being on sobriety" and shit. I never claimed to be, all I did was state my opinion on the topic, and ask whether you consider subs being clean or getting high, bc u contradicted urself in your original post. The difference is, whether you intended to be an asshole or not, I'm not freaking out about it, nitpicking every single sentence you write and telling you why it pisses me off or how you hurt my feelings. Seriously Benny I couldn't care less about what you do or what you think, and I don't have any bad feelings or problems wit u, just to clear that up.

With that being said, it doesn't matter to me whether you view urself as clean on subs or not, and I'm not really interested in discussing it. I feel a certain way, based upon my knowledge of it, and that's that. I'm not trying to force my views on people or explain why I'm right and your wrong, I just said what I wanted to say. Both you and synthetix took it the completely wrong way and wasted so much time and energy telling me why I'm a shithead. I've come across much worse posts in TDS especially in the past few months and everyone wants to get in an uproar over what I said, especially when what I said wasn't directed at anyone and there ware no bad feelings behind it

I'm not a dick, condescending, or abrasive to anyone on this site and you two are the only ive ever have a problem with. Go stalk my posts if u want and see how much of an asshole I am. I didn'tshame, humiliate, or provoke u or anyone so let's chill out

<snip - This is the 2nd time in this thread we've had to tell you to play nice.>