TDS Is it wrong to help a friend "in need" when your clean?

[bennyZA]

I'm prescribed a fuck-ton of Suboxone (42 8mg's every 2 weeks ) because I need them for pain as well as addiction treatment. Either way, he prescribes me way more than I need. So my oldest friend in the whole world approached me today and asked me if I still had connections for opiates. I said no, which is the truth, and then offered him suboxone's for free instead. He took it gladly. Afterwards I started thinking about how I just helped my friend use and basically rejoined the game for a hot minute. You would think it would be a clear cut answer to this question; I shouldn't have helped him get high and I should stay away from him. It turns out it's not as obvious as I thought. I realized that he would have gone to ghetto to score some smack or pills, last time he did that he got beat up and robbed. Instead he was safe and has his money for food or whatever and it didn't really cost me anything (I have so many it's no thang).

Let's say this doesn't become a regular thing (he uses every once in awhile, then quits... this happens A LOT with him) but in the distant future should I help him out again? Is what I'm doing intrinsically wrong? I honestly don't know.

 

[tripnotyzm]

Its generally easy to help a friend out in this sort of way.
Although it can seem like a harmless favour, I personally don't believe suboxone use is healthy in any way, especially for those who have not had it recommended by a doctor.
Look I'm sure your friend will be okay.
I guess its better that he took subs rather than getting some heroin off the corner.
Does he know how many subs you currently have access to?? This could put the idea in his head that its easy to score free or cheap drugs off you in the future.
Just watch out for your mates

 

[frazerinc]

Yeah, I would agree to what tripnotyzm said. I dont really know much about suboxone, but helping a friend out is most times the right thing to do. like you said that way he won't try to get some h or so, which could just get him into trouble again.
but he shouldn't get the feeling that he can get it from you anytime. try to work something out with him and talk about it, but my heart tells me that it was the right thing in the first place.
take care buddy and dont let the doubts eat you up, you helped your friend.

 

[lonewolf05]

I can't blame you for helping your friend out in that circumstance, but I defintely wouldn't make a habit of it. He will only come to you when he can't find his DOC and wants to prevent being sick. If he were really serious about solving his problems he would get his own suboxone prescription. Suboxone definitely works... if you want it to.

 

[Wolfmans_BrothEr]

I don't know how to play nice

 

[bennyZA]

I fuckin cant stand ppl who are on subs but say they're clean. YOUR NOT FUCKING CLEAN

So you can't stand me, huh? Why don't I post on all your threads telling you that I can't stand you for, well, whatever you say. I'm not going to do that because it's a dick move... maybe you should take a minute to think about that.

Did you decide to use my post as your only personal soapbox? Clean is not a definite thing... being clean means something to other people than you. I take my subs at the right time each day, I lead a normal life that is a complete 180 from my pre-sober days. It's a healthy life.

Have you ever taken Sobuxone for addiction treatment. Cause if you did you would know that it's nothing more than a pill you take to make cravings go away. I also take other medication that for a serious neurological disorder, does that also count for not being clean? You know why I asked that last question, cause if you're on Suboxone on a regular basis you would know that there is no euphoria or narcotic-like feelings after only a few days. The side effects from subs are comparable to all the other medications I take. Is your argument that you can only be clean if you take NO medications whatsoever? What about if I drink valerian or chamomile tea, there is tons of "mind altering chemicals" in those, and in regular tea there is caffeine another "mind-altering chemical..." If your in treatment, let me ask you another question... Do you drink coffee and/or smoke cigarettes?

Oh did I mention I take klonpin as part of my neuro disorder treatment? It's the only thing that works to make my Parkinson's like symptoms to go away. So, in your world, I can't be clean unless I stop taking that too.

Oh yea and one more thing. Suboxone is not like blowing coke to be clean off crack... It's like taking a medicine that makes you not want to do any cocaine, while simultaneously it prevents you from getting fucked up.

-------

Sorry, I'm just pissed that some guy (Wolfsmans_Brother) said - straight up - that he can't stand me. He could have told me his opinion in a much nicer fashion. Hell, that could have been a meaningful post if written with no agenda behind it.

Anyways: To the rest of the people who posted. It will definitely not be a regular thing, I just really didn't want to see him jonesin so bad he had to go to the hood. I did tell him about suboxone therapy and he told me he'd look into it. Either way, I don't feel like I did a bad thing after thinking it through.

 

[tripnotyzm]

Hey, don't worry about Wolfman.
Opinions like his don't count bro

 

[bennyZA]

Sorry, I think I may have overreacted, anyways....

I think another problem with this whole situation is that it's really tough when this person is literally your oldest friend. I wouldn't want to jeopardize our friendship in anyway... That being said, I did have a "friend" that was supposedly clean then came over with a "gift" to make me forget all the stupid shit he's done. Well, what do you think it was... I'll tell you... It was some dope. I had to tell him in this long ass email I wrote, that I couldn't see him anymore until he cleaned up. Obviously he was pissed, but it was the right thing to do. My oldest friend doesn't seem to be all in with his addictive personality, right now that is. If he was, I wouldn't hang out with him....

What a moral cluster-fuck.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Haha, I loved your rant on Wolfman and suboxone. Speakin the truth man, straight up!

I had friends help me out with sub when I was wd'ing in my using days. It's a kind gesture, but don't make a habit out of it. And your 'friend' bringing you dope is not cool. Might want to distance yourself. I had a friend who said he had my back when it came to my recovery, but everytime I went to his house he'd mention having ritalin or f-ing meth which makes me fiend like no other, and I have no will power over. So I eventually stopped kicking it with him, returning his calls, texts, etc. It's super hard breaking up with a friend. But now I'm so much better off.

 

[Abject]

Is what I'm doing intrinsically wrong?

No.


Also, for what it's worth, I think functioning the best you can is better than being free of drugs.

Having a smoke make you feel better? Smoke.
Subs better than other opiods? Have subs.
Oxy better than smack? Have oxy.
PST better than codeine? Have PST.
All I'm saying is, being better is tantamount to what's in your system.

 

[Pagey]

Yeah don't listen to people who say you're not clean cuz you're on subs. If you're using them to come off a massive opiate addiction that's clean in my book and you should be proud of yourself.

Regarding your question - don't blame yourself for helping him out that one time, as you said, it's better he gets his subs from a reliable source than trying to go score dodgy heroin in a dodgy neighborhood. If he brings it up again I'd really try to convince him not to do it obviously, but if it's clear that otherwise he's going to try to score off the streets it's really best if he gets them from you...that's a rpetty tough situation though.

 

[iLoveYouWithaKnife]

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. It just comes down to what YOU think and believe is right.
If I was clean, and my buddy came to me sick- and I had a way to score and help him out- I would.
But that's just me.
You've been there before, so you know what it's like.
I'd say you were a good friend because you didn't leave him sick.

 

[bennyZA]

I think after hearing your guys take, and thinking it over:

I've basically come to the conclusion that what I did wasn't wrong, as long as I don't make it a regular thing. This is pretty much what everyone said. My friend hasn't called me for any more subs, but he did hit me up to ask how I'm doing (he knows I'm going through some tough life shit, it was a genuine call, not a cheap trick to get me to give him more subs). I think he got the picture.

Now the real issue is what if he hits me up again in say, two weeks, begging me. I don't know if I could see him sick or get hurt trying to get it off the street. Is hooking him up once every few weeks a bad thing? I certainly have the subs to spare. I'm leaning towards yes, it is a bad thing. If he asks me again, I'm just going to say I'm out.

-----

Haha, I loved your rant on Wolfman and suboxone. Speakin the truth man, straight up!

Right on, I do my best

I really can't stand it when other people tell me how to think and how I should feel. If you ask me, being clean is a subjective concept. I used to be a drunk and a dope fiend. Now I don't drink, don't take any opiates. I still smoke weed and I consider myself clean. Suboxone is a legit medication for a legit medical condition (addiction). I bet other people on this forum take subs, lead a normal life, and consider themselves clean. I even know some teachers, doctors, etc. that take subs and do just fine.

The fact that Suboxone exists is truly amazing, a wonder medication. I don't care what anyone else says. We are lucky it exists, I'm 99% sure I would have relapsed within days without it. Even when I could have gotten some pills and some dope I chose not to cause the cravings were gone.

Suboxone saved my life!

 

[Jabberwocky]

To be honest I don't think you're doing wrong. In actuality I think you're doing right - as if the guy is determined to use and will do so regardless of whether you give him stuff or not, you're helping him a lot as subs will stop him going to score on the street (and possibly end up in jail, or get bad gear) and will also perhaps give him a little something by means of how to stop - as subs will block his cravings, stop the dope from working and possibly change his mind on things. I don't think you're doing anything wrong, you're doing good, and he should be grateful he has a friend like you.

 

[Wolfmans_BrothEr]

Your taking my opinion as a personal attack against you which wasn't the objective. My comment was more in response to you saying suboxone classifies you as clean yet you refer to giving your friend subs as helping him get high. I'm more pointing out the contradictions in your post than passing judgement on you or your lifestyle

With that being said no I don't consider being on suboxone being clean. If you have an opiate problem and need suboxone (which is an opiate btw) to maintain a proper lifestyle then your simply substituting one drug for a different form of it. I have been on suboxone for addiction, multiple times for extended periods of time, so I know what it's like to take it every day. I also know that when you stop your back exactly (if not worse off) than where you started.

There's nothing wrong with doing a quick taper on subs with abstinence as the end goal, but maintaining on suboxone is exactly the same as doing dope every day except its legal and you buy it a pharmacy. Just because a doctor prescribes it doesn't mean it's harmless nor does it change your situation at all. Subs are the same crutch you used dope for, you may not view it that way, but it's the truth. I make the whole crack - coke comparison because your body can't tell the difference. As far as your brain is concerned your still using an opiate every day, tolerance is still building, and you don't experience withdrawal, lethargy, loss of energy, decrease on mood, demotivation and depression because your still pumping your body full of opiates

You've fallen into the belief that just because a dr gives it to you is must be ok. You say your not taking an opiate when in reality you are. You think it's ok to take subs every day because other people who take subs every day say it is. God forbid someone has an opinion which contradicts yours and you ostracize them for it. I never called you a bad person or attacked your personal dignity, nor am I judging you, but your getting completely defensive when I call you out. Your on a public forum dude don't post if you don't want random ppl's opinions

This is a site where people post about their past experiences and what worked/didn't work for them. And that's simply what I'm doing. Your likely to find more support than I will on the subject because the general concensus among most bl users is that subs are a godsend, but then again, I'd expect drug users on a drug forum to advocate the use of a drug. I'm not the only one who thinks this way:

An opiate is an opiate. The only advantage methadone has on the illegal ones is that you don't go to jail when you get caught with it and copping is less of a hassle. The downside is that the withdrawal is way, way worse than oxy and most people who go on methadone for maintenance never get completely clean. If you really want to quit, do it right and get on a fast taper (less than a month) with suboxone. If you go on maintenance you're just trading addictions.

Maintenance can make your life more manageable but someone needs to tell you that it does NOT mean you're clean or that your problems will go away. All it means is that your addiction is legal instead of illegal. I wish someone would have told me that before I went on suboxone. I would have chosen differently.

That's an excerpt from synthetix's thread where I made almost identical statements as I did in this one, and no one tried to shit on me for it. Sorry I don't agree with you or am saying something you don't wanna hear but every time you dismiss what I'm saying is the further your running from the truth

 

[tripnotyzm]

Fair point, but that wasn't the OP's question.
Regardless of him being clean, he is seeking advice on something unrelated.

 

[bennyZA]

Hey Wolfsman, you did personally attack me... you straight up said I fuckin cant stand ppl who are on subs but say they're clean. YOUR NOT FUCKING CLEAN You did attack my personal dignity and you judged me... If you just mentioned that you disagree with what I said in a well thought out, and calm demeanor, I wouldn't have taken it so personally.

Anyways clean is totally subjective. I have some serious chronic pain issues, which need to be addressed. I take suboxone instead of traditional narcotics because I used them to get high. If I took them as prescribed I would be clean, in my opinion (which frankly, is the only one that matters when it comes to HOW I FEEL). If I abused them, I would not be clean.

maintaining on suboxone is exactly the same as doing dope every day except its legal and you buy it a pharmacy

Dude really. Get 10 guys who are serious dope addicts and get 10 guys who are on subs. Mix them up and put them in a line... I bet most people can tell who is who... You really believe that being on subs is no different than being on dope? I guess I'm a dope fiend. Even though I work and make money that - gasp - I save up, I go to my local temple, have plenty of food in the fridge, wear nice - clean - clothes, etc.

But in one instance you're right, I am swapping one opioid for another. Chemically speaking. One massive difference. I'm swapping euphoria and getting high for well.... pretty much nothing, I take my subs and don't even notice any perceptual change. So chemically speaking you sir are correct, here's a cookie... Yet it is an odd point of view. So if I didn't take subs and was your definition of clean, would taking any immodium or dextromathorphan be considered a relapse.

Again, who are you to tell me - or anyone for that matter - if they're clean or not. Who is Effuzion to tell me if someone is clean or not. Are you the master who bestows the title of clean? Did you call AA, NA, Merriam-Websters, and Oxford English Dictionary Co. saying "Hi, I'm Wolfman's Brother. Just wanted to let you know that from now I get to decide the definition of clean... why you ask? Cause I say so."

This is all semantics anyways. I can call myself clean because that is my god given right. I can call you an asshole for telling me what I am or am not... but I wont. You are allowed to believe whatever you want to believe as well. Just play nice... Which is really not asking that much. Do you know how easy it would have been to just chime in and say "Hey benny, I think that since you started slanging subs to your friend your going down a slippery slope to the land of not being clean..."

My comment was more in response to you saying suboxone classifies you as clean yet you refer to giving your friend subs as helping him get high. I'm more pointing out the contradictions in your post than passing judgement on you or your lifestyle

How is helping someone - who isn't clean - affect whether or not I'm clean? That's some pretty weird logic that doesn't make any sense. That's like an alcoholic going out to the bars with someone and buying them a drink (cause the alcoholic owes them money or something) and not drinking. Does that somehow make you an alcoholic again? I really don't think so.

Sorry I don't agree with you or am saying something you don't wanna hear but every time you dismiss what I'm saying is the further your running from the truth

So now you're telling me that what I believe is a fallacy? That I should believe whatever you said or that I'm being disingenuous? Why do you think that you are right and we are wrong in a discussion about subjective matters. Somehow you know the truth!? Seriously dude, we need to talk and be friends so that you can show me the truth behind all subjective matters.

This is obviously something of a pet peeve for you or else you wouldn't have said what you said, and how you said it, and you wouldn't have brought it up in other forums as well. So that brings me to my ultimate questions: Why do you care about this topic so damn much, why can't you stand people who think their clean while on subs (your words). That was your only comment on this thread, it had nothing to do with the topic, it was just you ranting and raving.

BOOM! Lawyered....

Anyone else have any practical advice for me regarding the OP.

 

[Wolfmans_BrothEr]

Dude u have way too much invested in this. I didn't even read ur entire post.

In the end u can believe whatever u want, I'm just giving u a different perspective. If u wanna consider urself clean on subs then ur lying to urself, simple as that. Take it how u will but I've been in this game a long time and I know the general concensus of "clean time" amongst AA/NA and therapeutic communities. u wanna know the truth, most ppl I know (including a majority of AA/NA community) laugh whenever someone on subs/done tries to claim clean time

Why do I feel strongly about it? Bc I feel calling yourself clean is something you earn, and usually takes alot of time and agony. Real clean time does anyway. Not taking some drug everyday and calling urself clean bc it sounds nice to say and makes u feel better about about urself. The cold hard truth is your not.

You say subs don't give you euphoria? Try not taking it for a few days and see how euphoric u feel. But right, who are we to tell you? You came to us for advice and were giving it. Sorry it's not some bubblegum 5th grade "everybody wins" kinda response. You touched on a subject I obv feel quite strongly about, and it came out in what I said and I stand by it. My reasons are none of ur concern. I'm not gonna dumb it down for u because I may hurt ur feelings. Grow the fuck up dude not everyone's here to please u

We'll see how much your view changes when you try stopping ur subs. And if u never stop taking them then you've just proved my point even further

 

[sickofthisshiz]

Subs are replacement therapy. When you are taking subs you are not clean. I don't even see how it is such an argument.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Whatever you want to call it, suboxone is a legitimate treatment for opiate addiction, and it's done wonders for many people. My brother and I both have been on suboxone and it's improved our lives tremendously. After a six year pod tea habit, along with whatever else I could get my hands on, as well as meth and bath salts, my life became unmanagable. Now, after a year on suboxone, along with therapy, my whole life has changed. I no longer crave any drugs, don't associate with junkies, don't buy drugs online, etc.

Also, I've suffered from anxiety/depression my entire life. Traditional anti-depressants do not work for me. Suboxone combined with a healthy diet and exercise has gotten rid of almost all of my anxiety. It's amazing really how much I feel like a 'normal' person.

So I don't give a shit if NA/AA doesn't consider me clean. It works for me so I'm working it.