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Opioids Suboxone, Methadone, Immodium and alot of questions.

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plague66

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 14, 2009
Messages
94
Hi, so 21th january I wen't cold turkey off 17mL's of Methadone. Then I used dope (3-methyfentanyl) for 5 days. My last dose was 02:00AM on the 27th (Sunday) but I would still regard that as of 26th (you know what I mean).
So then, I woke up on the 27th, was positive that there couldn't be any methadone in my system, now just needed to get rid of the 3MF (which is extremely short acting opioid, although strong). While I was waiting for that I was on some Lyrica which helped wonderfully but the tolerance rises sky-high within a few days.

43,5 hours later, 28th january 9:30PM I did 1mg of Suboxone intranasally which worked wonders. And I felt OK, not good, but OK. Went to sleep, sleeping was bad (nothing as close to full w/d but just half awake, half asleep nightmares).
Next morning on the 29th around 9AM I did 1mg of Suboxone intranasally again, felt normal already. But the night was still bad, I feel chilled out and good during the day but just when I cover myself under that blanked my skin starts to get hot and I get switchy and unable to sleep.

Next morning on the 30th, around 9AM again, this time I did 2mg of Suboxone intranasally. Now I felt close to 100%, not high or anything but there definitely was some groove in my brain if you catch my drift. And at night, SAME SHIT! :!
This night I slept the worst!
Now It is the 31th, I am about to do 2mg of Suboxone intranasally again and probably feel near 100% if not 110%. If I can't sleep proper tonight I dunno what I'm gonna do. (I know this sounds like a walk in the park for some but you can read some of my earlier posts ive been battling with hardcore shit before, now I am just trying to do it SMART!)

So, my questions.
I know the 7 day rule for short acting opiods, for example, if we ruled 27th (the 02:00AM use) as my last day of using, I would still only be on 4th day todays morning, which would explain, because the 3rd night is always the worst and after that It should get easier. But if we take it as just 26ths off to sleep dose then It would have been 4th night already and my 5th day overall.

So, I did everything so perfectly In coming off Methadone (waiting times), waited almost full 48 hrs to come off 3MF, so why the fuck I can't sleep well?
I know people who just take Suboxone 2 days after finishing YEARS long of high dose Methadone maintenance tapered down to 30mL and they can sleep well & good first day.
And also, judging by the 7 day rule, I am for sure using the short taper, If I still can't sleep proper tonight I'm gonna dose 2mg tomorrow again, but If I can sleep I will reduce it to 1mg and so on.

Can I use Immodium with Suboxone, and if yes, If I want to improve my sleep should the Immodium be taken in the mornings or before sleep, and how much would be enough considering 1mg Suboxone gets me considerably well and 2mg near to 100%? (I have no complaints about how I feel daytime, just wondering about the half life of Immodium)

I am thinking of getting some Kvetipinor/Seroquel to knock me out, because even 8mg Clonazepam doesn't do shit. Tried it last or the night before that.
So people who have experience with benzos and Seroquel and such I would be thankful for an input, can I knock my self out with these or will it be the same as 8-10mg Clonazepam (although I almost never go over 2mg daily so I shouldnt have tolerance to it so big that it gives NO effect!)

Other than that my daily meds are just 2mg Clonazepam in the mornings, but Im slightly getting the feeling with this drug, that If you use It for everyday use, It keeps you calm and works wonders so you can't even feel the drug coming on because you are used to it. (the long half life too)
So It's like, If I take it, I don't feel anything, If I don't take it, I will start to feel nervous and shit after 24 hours into the benzo w/d... So maybe switch to Xanax temporarily although I think Seroquel would be a better idea if that would work.

A long piece of read but I would really appriciate anyones input, thanks!
 
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wow! that detox was convoluted as hell... anyway sorry but im sitting here typing at 2am because i still cant sleep well: i quit methadone 26 days ago and i get 2-3 hours sleep at a time... idk where you heard of ppl sleeping 2 days after quitting methadone because without some other opiate or heavy benzo or sedative its just not happening. yes you can sleep after quitting if you substitute subs because you are putting opiates back in your system...

anyway on to your issue... quitting 17mg methadone is a pretty big jump: im not sure what you are trying to do with the suboxone... do you intend to keep using it or just stop? because if the intent is to quit the suboxone there are going to be WD's when your body finally does not have any opiates in the receptors anymore... at this point the only things that are likely going to allow you to sleep is either stabilizing on the suboxone or taking a decent amount of a stong benzo. otherwise get used to not sleeping well for a while... cause thats unfortunately part of the price that has to be paid especially when you quit methadone...
 
Hey man your post is kinda confusing but I just wanted to inform you that although the acute withdrawals from a short acting opiate is gonna be anywhere from 3-10 days depending on the opiate, sleep is the last thing to come back to regular and it takes upwards of 30-45 days for me everytime I detox.
 
thelastclubkid said:
wow! that detox was convoluted as hell... anyway sorry but im sitting here typing at 2am because i still cant sleep well: i quit methadone 26 days ago and i get 2-3 hours sleep at a time... idk where you heard of ppl sleeping 2 days after quitting methadone because without some other opiate or heavy benzo or sedative its just not happening. yes you can sleep after quitting if you substitute subs because you are putting opiates back in your system...

anyway on to your issue... quitting 17mg methadone is a pretty big jump: im not sure what you are trying to do with the suboxone... do you intend to keep using it or just stop? because if the intent is to quit the suboxone there are going to be WD's when your body finally does not have any opiates in the receptors anymore... at this point the only things that are likely going to allow you to sleep is either stabilizing on the suboxone or taking a decent amount of a stong benzo. otherwise get used to not sleeping well for a while... cause thats unfortunately part of the price that has to be paid especially when you quit methadone...
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I am intending to stay on Suboxone for a week max more, then its about 3 weeks passed my Methadone C/T. And the short acting withdrawals from 3MF should be over then too.

I was telling I hear people sleeping after quitting methadone with substituting it with Suboxone. I did the same thing and in my opinion in very proper way, but I can't sleep well. It's so unlogical because right now I snorted that 2mg of Suboxone and feel kind of high a bit. Maybe not high, but feel good. But still, I am afraid I can't sleep well at night nonetheless.
 
from 17mg methadone you would need a minimum of 2mg suboxone orally to stabilize assuming no cross-tolerance issues... (im not familiar with how effective subs are used intranasally, though..) and you would also need to be stabilized on the suboxone to be able to sleep which could take up to 4-5 days... so if you keep up the 2mg dose and take it orally you will likey stabilize and be able to sleep...

of course as soon as you stop the suboxone in a week you know this is all going to start again with the insomnia...
 
So how about Seroquel and Immodium? If I take 20mg Immodium in the morning will it help me sleep at night? Or is the half life so short that I should take em before going to sleep? Will 20mg of Immodium react with the Naloxone what is in 2mg of Suboxone?

Or should I instead get Seroquel, what is a good first time dose if I have medium to severe tolerance to benzos and just want to sleep 8 hours. (10mg Clonazepam didn't do anything)
 
OK, so I understand not to take Immodium.

But please, help me out with the starting doses of Seroquel. I have read, that no matter what tolerance you have before to other substances, first time Seroquel 25mg will do the trick, even in opiate related insomnia. Is this true or should I get script for 100mg or perhaps even 200mg pills?
 
Last 2 nights I have been taking 100mg Seroquel before sleep and I sleep almost instantly as I hit the pillow. The first night I woke up after 5 hours of sleep though and then had some nightmare-ish/openeyed sleep for 2 hours.
But last night I slept over 9 hours straight and I was dreaming and shit, and I got scared like is this real or is the Seroquel fucking with my brain, so I opened my eyes a few times mid-sleep. (dunno how I remember that)

And yeah, it was real. This was the 7th day w/o 3-methylfentanyl so maybe the 7 day rule is correct. And what I am wondering is how superior bupe really is to Methadone.
No longer I have these crappy mucus drip-downs from nose to throat/tongue what made my mouth smell so foul. My nose is always clear and I feel so much better. Energized, not so depressed etc.
And waking up has never been better, with Methadone I always felt the need instantly for my daily dose even though it has so long half life. But with Subs I can just open my eyes like a normal person, fix up a coffee, get back to bed and watch some TV haha. No stress.

Anyway, starting to reduce Suboxone dose. I'm going on 1mg tomorrow.
 
Suboxone ends up just like methadone. Ive been on both(so has my fiancee) i am on meth right now while he is on subs. Everynight at 3am he has to wake up & take a sub,he has been on it for years but the point is its easy to stay on them bc once you go off the wds suck just as bad. Bieve me hes been trying to get off suboxone(just switched to subutex) for a year & its not easy.
 
jeng1128 said:
Suboxone ends up just like methadone. Ive been on both(so has my fiancee) i am on meth right now while he is on subs. Everynight at 3am he has to wake up & take a sub,he has been on it for years but the point is its easy to stay on them bc once you go off the wds suck just as bad. Bieve me hes been trying to get off suboxone(just switched to subutex) for a year & its not easy.
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Yeah I get you, but I shouldn't be off too bad if I already go on 1mg tomorrow and use it for 3 weeks total maybe?
 
Second day on 1mg, all good. Slept without Seroquel aswell, but before I dose the sub I definitely feel the familiar Methadone withdrawals, tremors and occasional heartbeats in my throat and ears. Gonna go to 0,5mg soon and then 0,25mg and the rest is history.
 
yea even during my taper on methadone i would get the heartbeat and the raised BP... i think it started around getting under maybe 8 mg back in novermber... my BP went from 115/75 to 135/95 and stayed there until basically 2 weeks off of methadone completely and then started cpreeping back down.. but while it was up i would basically *always* feel my heart beating... at the same time i got some nasty headaches; some were so bad i remeber joking (i have a great sense of humor about this stuff) and saying "im totally having a stroke... this is what a stroke feels like" to my GF... i would also always get the stiff joints in my hands when i was near the time to take the next day's dose and that lasted until about 5mg and then went away; the one wierd thing i noticed about the whole tapering process was how different WD type symptoms would start at different points in the taper: for instance the night sweats started on and off around 12 mg and stopped at around 3mg... i only sweated 1 or 2 times when i completey jumped..

anyway keep at it.. you are doing it the right way.. i know it sux having some mild symptoms pop up during the tapering process but IMO its better than to jump and have it all happen big and at once...
 
Did 1mg today again, what do you guys think how long should I be on 1mg before I go to 0.5mg considering I dropped Methadone about 3 weeks ago.
 
plague66 said:
Did 1mg today again, what do you guys think how long should I be on 1mg before I go to 0.5mg considering I dropped Methadone about 3 weeks ago.
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Depends how you feel. Are you good on the 1mg or still a bit sick? If you're feeling fine than I'd try dropping down to .5 and see how your body reacts. Getting down past 2mg's is tough.
 
1mg keeps me 100% normal at day, but at night I can sleep tight only with the help of Seroquel (and thats not something I want to be dependent on, havent taken it for 3 days), without it I go to sleep and wake up after 4-5 hours and then have these RLS type of lucid dreams until daylight shines in. How bad can Seroquel addiction/wd-s get and are they already in effect within a weeks use? My doses range from 50mg to 100mg.
 
A week is probably not long enough.. and with seroquel, there aren't real psychically withdrawals like opiates and benzos. It's more just you're body rebounding from being used to it so much. But that only usually happens when people have been on high doses for a long time.
 
I would hen early ease up on the suboxone. It might only be a partial agonist but the truth is that its stronger than methadone mg/mg (up to 30mg), so you want to make sure you don't raise your tolerance by using buprenorphine. I would try smaller dosages (1mg), because suboxone's ceiling effect occurs at around 2-4mg (and definitely on the lower side if your sniffing it) and its generally accepted that its peak opioid activity is equivalent to about 30mg of methadone (which is why they have MMT patients taper down to 30mg, stabalize, and then wait 48 hours or more to dose), and if you were taking 15.5mg of methadone (I'm assuming its 1mg/mL, because at 170mg that suboxone would make you sick) you could actually be taking a step backwards.. However, even if that is the case it may be worth it as suboxone is thought by many (including myself) to be easier to taper down with.

I honestly wouldn't worry too much about the sleep if that's the worst of your problems at this point you should be lucky.. I mean, you said that other than that the sub made you feel 100% normal and almost even high. After coming off of methadone and 3-alpha-methyl-fentanyl, I would say you're pretty fucking lucky my man!

Anyway, in regards to the Immodium/Loperamide (always go generic, wayyyyy cheaper), I find that a good starting dose for someone with a rather large tolerance is around 60-80mg. I take 50mg of methadone/day and have been using around 3-6 bags of good heroin on top of it for about half a year now, and I can definitely feel 60mg (though any less and its not really noticeable it seems) of loperamide. In fact, I just took 80mg of lope right now as I'm trying to cut the heroin out of my routine and stabilize on my methadone dose, so I can eventually ween that down to, in due time.

As for Lope's effects, I actually find that it can sometimes be a bit overwhelming. Some people claim it takes up to four hours to work, but I always feel withdrawal relief within 30 minutes, and other effects (the "high") after about an hour. Regardless of whether Loperamide actually crosses the Blood Brain Barrier or not doesn't matter because it does effect your PNS and definitely DOES cause sedation (kind of like a muscle relaxant). About a week ago my gf and I each took 120mg and eventually passed out at 8:30 at night and slept till about ten o'clock the next day...So, lope will help with the sleep, but it is an opiate and does carry the same risks as other opiates.. People have (on this site even, I believe) overdosed fatally from loperamide and benzodiazepines, so be weary of the risks as always.
 
Thanks for the replies, my dose was indeed 17,5mL of Methadone not 170mL, that would be crazy. Im gonna be on 1mg for a few more days, then go to 0.5mg for a week and maybe try C/T-ing from that. Shouldnt really be so bad, I think Tramadol would even help me C/T-ing 0.5mg Suboxone.
 
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