Codeine/DHC disappointment

[after8mink]

To cut a long story slightly shorter, I fancied trying something new recently so have had a play with both codeine and dihydrocodeine. I have no recreational experience of opiates and consequently no tolerance.
I worked up to 24 8/50 co-codamols CWE'd (192mg codeine assuming an unlikely 100% extraction) and that just left me a bit floaty.
Similar on paramol (dihydrocodeine) also seemed to do little.
No euphoria so far.
Thought I'd step it up a bit to try and get some effects so got some 40mg DF118s and thought I'd plug them. As I'd read that plugging should kick in within 20 minutes and be more efficient with DHC, and that redosing will also work I managed to get through what seems like a rather large 600mg over the space of about 3 hours. Doing 80-120mg about every 20 minutes.
With each of these experiences I've added in 25mg diphenhydramine to potentiate/reduce itches sometime in (maybe 90 mins-2 hours?) to ensure I wasn't confusing the two drugs.

Any thoughts on why I'm not getting much from these? I was definitely quite twatted with the 600mg but I certainly wouldn't describe it as euphoric, or even particularly enjoyable. Are they just not suited to me?

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

Some people never get anything from codeine, because a certain percentage of the population lack the correct liver equipment to turn it into something useful (morphine). For others, that amount of variable, some people get smacked off codeine, others feel very little.

While that could explain your issue with codeine, I'm not sure if it can explain your issue with dihydrocodeine...

 

[wolverhamptonian]

I take dihydrocodeine 10x 30mgs recreationaly and ive built up a tolerance at a certin level anyway not important but this leaves me confused!!.Because your saying your new to opiates and as neighbourhood threat said some people dont have the correct chemistry to convert codiene in the liver to something potent. But dihydrocodeine i believe does!! so i have no explanation four that maybe try posting on ADVANCED DRUG DISCUSSION!! good luck

 

[grrr8Dane]

I have no recreational experience of opiates and consequently no tolerance.

I worked up to 24 8/50 co-codamols CWE'd (192mg codeine assuming an unlikely 100% extraction) and that just left me a bit floaty.

I managed to get through what seems like a rather large 600mg over the space of about 3 hours. Doing 80-120mg about every 20 minutes.

With each of these experiences I've added in 25mg diphenhydramine to potentiate/reduce itches sometime in (maybe 90 mins-2 hours?) to ensure I wasn't confusing the two drugs.

Any thoughts on why I'm not getting much from these? I was definitely quite twatted with the 600mg but I certainly wouldn't describe it as euphoric, or even particularly enjoyable. Are they just not suited to me?

Opiates like DHC and Codeine are fairly chill. You mentioned that you have no experience with opiates. I'm wondering if you have an exaggerated expectation and because you're not feeling what you think you should be feeling, you're assuming that the drugs are having no effect.

Also, Diphenhydramine inhibits CYP2D6 even at doses as low as 25mg, and as NeighborhoodThreat mentioned, some people are CYPD26 poor metabolizers - if you happen to have reduced CYP2D6 function and you're dosing with Diphenhydramine in between dosing with Codeine, you most likely wouldn't feel the Codeine at all. Of course, this wouldn't really effect DHC in a negative manner.

It's also possible that you're blotching the CWE and losing a good amount of Codeine and/or DHC.

 

[after8mink]

Strange how this should pop up again exactly 3 months after the original post! I've experimented more with both since then, and also with oxycodone. I think after years of drugs where it's pretty obvious when they are working (MDMA, psychedelics, etc.), the opiates I've used are a little more subtle than I was expecting given how people talk about them.

I think I was misunderstanding what euphoria meant too. I now realise it's a pleasant "sense of well-being" rather than the ecstatic feeling that MDMA gives. They make you feel nice! The oxy was what gave the clue as to what I should be looking for. All three are definitely working as they should, and a tiny amount of alprazolam slipped in the mix works very nicely too.

[EDIT] Incidentally, now I know how to appreciate it, less is more. :D

 

[kokaino]

Opiates like DHC and Codeine are fairly chill. You mentioned that you have no experience with opiates. I'm wondering if you have an exaggerated expectation and because you're not feeling what you think you should be feeling, you're assuming that the drugs are having no effect.

Also, Diphenhydramine inhibits CYP2D6 even at doses as low as 25mg, and as NeighborhoodThreat mentioned, some people are CYPD26 poor metabolizers - if you happen to have reduced CYP2D6 function and you're dosing with Diphenhydramine in between dosing with Codeine, you most likely wouldn't feel the Codeine at all. Of course, this wouldn't really effect DHC in a negative manner.

It's also possible that you're blotching the CWE and losing a good amount of Codeine and/or DHC.

2D6 is involved in the metabolism of DHC. Demethylation at the 3-carbon site occurs via 2D6 to create dihydromorphine, which is a minor metabolite (<5% ) but a metabolite nonetheless. Another minor metabolite, nordihydrocodeine is created by 3A4 activity. The conjugated 3 and 6 metabolites make up 85% of the metabolites in the urine after a single fixed dose, similar to codeine. UGT 2B7 is largely responsible for DHC-6-glucuronide formation, which is the major metabolite responsible for DHC's analgesic effect. This is similar to codeine's conversion to C6G, which is responsible for codeine's analgesic effects.

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

I don't find redosing to be effective for codeine (or most opiates for that matter, with exception of Tramadol) so by continuing to take dose after dose, all your really doing is chasing the feeling you originally got from the first dose, regardless of how little it be. I'm not surprised you didn't feel anything. Some people will disagree but I'm just speaking upon my experience. You also have to take into account that codeine is one of the weaker opiates. Others have discussed the possible enzyme problem

 

[kokaino]

^ Totally agree. I never get anything when I redose any opiate, not just codeine.

 

[after8mink]

I'll bear that in mind with future experimentation. I was just playing safe by starting low and seeing how I reacted (as it was a new type of drug to me) but I'm getting a feel for my level now.

It should have occurred to me really as re-dosing seems to just extend rather than intensify the experience with everything I've tried apart from cannabis, ketamine and benzos.

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

I'll bear that in mind with future experimentation. I was just playing safe by starting low and seeing how I reacted (as it was a new type of drug to me) but I'm getting a feel for my level now.

It should have occurred to me really as re-dosing seems to just extend rather than intensify the experience with everything I've tried apart from cannabis, ketamine and benzos.

Yes, redosing benzodiazepines, ketamine and cannabis is effective. Just not with drugs like opiates. I find the same with amphetamines. My second dose of Adderall during the day isn't nearly as effective as my first and doesn't produce that same euphoric feeling. Just prolongs the duration.

 

[grrr8Dane]

2D6 is involved in the metabolism of DHC. Demethylation at the 3-carbon site occurs via 2D6 to create dihydromorphine, which is a minor metabolite (<5% ) but a metabolite nonetheless. Another minor metabolite, nordihydrocodeine is created by 3A4 activity. The conjugated 3 and 6 metabolites make up 85% of the metabolites in the urine after a single fixed dose, similar to codeine. UGT 2B7 is largely responsible for DHC-6-glucuronide formation, which is the major metabolite responsible for DHC's analgesic effect. This is similar to codeine's conversion to C6G, which is responsible for codeine's analgesic effects.

^Ahhhh, gotcha. Thank you. I had been under a slightly different impression RE:2D6 / DHC metabolism and had never bothered to research the matter, given that I've come across DHC only a handful of times.

 

[pillboxskid]

But i presume their would be a point in redosing on your opiates if each time you redose your dose is stronger <ie 200mg 240.mg 320mg, and so on??

 

[doIhavePotential]

there is a point, but you have to consider that with each dose you:

1. increase your tolerance
2. don't get as much euphoria as previous doses
3. can be put into a state of dysphoria from nausea,itching or from the other ingredients such as the APAP(caffeine for canadians)

of course you do get higher, it's just with diminishing returns and a waste when you can wait a 6 hours and get a better high vs a 2 hour wait.

 

[Permanent Jones]

pppppp

 

[pillboxskid]

Thinking about it i think maybe you may have used to much diphenhydramine my friend! I found that out the hard way!!

 

[Permanent Jones]

pppppp

^^^A pair of small hands got a hold of my kindle .

 

[after8mink]

...the other ingredients such as the APAP(caffeine for canadians)...

Not a criticism, just to clarify for other readers that APAP is paracetamol, not caffeine.
I don't think it was clear from your post that APAP isn't caffeine, as opposed to caffeine being present in Canadian OTC formulations. I assume that's what you meant.