Rolled 8 Times In 30 Days - any damage?

[StrutterGear]

I genuinely don't. If he was still feeling sketchy after a week or so then yes, but not simply because he took a few too many pills last month. That's ridiculous.



What science? The only time I ever see mention of 3 month breaks (or "rolling balls" lol) is on this particular sub-section of Bluelight.



You are completely & utterly wrong if you think a 2 year break is correct advice.

Where did I say that? 2 years is obviously not right.

YOU saying getting on it every "few weeks at most" is fine is poor advice my friend. Personally I normally take a one or two month break, sometimes more. I HAVE binged on MDMA but that isn't to say it's right.

Your blasé attitude to HR is astonishing, but it is your right. All I'm saying is dont ever give advice on this part of the board because it's just not harm reduction. I always want advice to be practical but you're too far here.

Worst of all is you flaming Renz for telling the guy to take an extended break after getting on it twice a week for a whole month.

 

[parttime crackhead]

You chose to tell me I was wrong, while not telling the guy who said you have to wait 2 years that he was wrong.

I disagree that telling someone the reality that taking pills every few weeks is not going to harm them is bad HR. I believe it to be the truth. If you disagree with that then fine, show me why I'm wrong. Show me something other than "Shulgin says" that proves I'm wrong before you tell me not to give advice on this part of the board. Otherwise my advice is just as valid as yours.

 

[4evrLkn]

Show me credible scientific studies that show taking it more than once every 3 months does any permanent damage at all & I'll change my opinion. Saying "coz Shulgin said so" doesn't really cut it.

I'm sorry I'm on a phone, but if you have your doctorate then by all means let me know. I'm not trying to start any argument at all, but I have studied this drug extensively.

 

[2after909]

3months wait is indeed the minimum.

why? 3 months seems arbitrary. wikipedia's entry on MDMA (retrieved today) notes: "MDMA causes a reduction in the concentration of serotonin transporters (SERTs) in the brain. The rate at which the brain recovers from serotonergic changes is unclear."

Considering you used 8 times in the last 30days, I'd suggest you wait 8x3months= 24months = 2years before rolling again, if you want to keep enjoying it.

i don't see how you could possibly underpin this arithmetic with a sensible explanation. (surprise me if you can.)

 

[2after909]

What science? The only time I ever see mention of 3 month breaks (or "rolling balls" lol) is on this particular sub-section of Bluelight.

+1. if their claim of a 2-3 month is truly "scientific," why don't they show us the scientific articles? it was not parttime crackhead who brought up science, it was folley.

 

[Folley]

You chose to tell me I was wrong, while not telling the guy who said you have to wait 2 years that he was wrong.

I disagree that telling someone the reality that taking pills every few weeks is not going to harm them is bad HR. I believe it to be the truth. If you disagree with that then fine, show me why I'm wrong. Show me something other than "Shulgin says" that proves I'm wrong before you tell me not to give advice on this part of the board. Otherwise my advice is just as valid as yours.

MDMA effects one of the most complex chemicals in the brain, serotonin. As such, there is no much if any actual concrete evidence one way or the other to say how it completely effects the brain.. There have been MANY studies done on long-term axon downregulation from long term MDMA abuse however, and you are free too look them up for yourself. They are all over Ecstasy Discussion, that subject has been beat to death. It is from all these discussions and studies and people's personal testimonies that the 3 month rule was created.

Now, not that many people follow it to the T... I don't. It is often stated around here that 30 days is the absolute MINIMUM you should be waiting though, and I firmly stand by that. I often wait 2-3 months between my rolls, but have gone 5 months without rolling now when I have MDA sitting downstairs. Why? Because the longer you wait, the better you will roll. There are plenty of other ways of having a good time, needing to take over a half gram of a drug every few weeks just to have a good time is the sign of compulsive addictiveness




Saying you and your friends can take MDMA with no NOTICABLE (note the emphasis, you'll notice it soon. Actually, if you get bad comedowns you already are) damage and advising other people to do the same is not OK here, that's the exact behavior we all have been working to discourage. If you want to be an idiot, fine. But don't bring others into your stupidity.

and what is wrong with waiting 2 years exactly? I mean, it might be a bit excessive but it won't hurt ANYONE to not do MDMA.


This board used to be full of people "rollin bawlz" every week but with the work of some dedicated HR advocates we have been able to turn that around and turn this forum into a tool that can actually help people, and as you can see we aren't about to let it go back

 

[StrutterGear]

I don't think three months is the MINIMUM, I think a month should be the MINIMUM but I wouldn't do it myself every month for the year.

There is no set minimum as concrete because there hasn't been enough research into what long term effects of MDMA abuse are.

Spend a little more time on this forum and you'll see the dime a dozen threads of misguided consumers binging on MDMA and then asking the same questions "Why am I so fucked up, have I got HPPD? I'm depressed, I'm sad, I'm fatigued, I'm getting headaches" and so on and so on.

Until there is CONCRETE evidence that says you should wait an exact length of time it is better to err on the side of caution (although not being stupidly overcautious because for me HR has to be practical advice as well) than keep necking pills and end up fucked up.

As I said, what you do is your business but don't tell people to "carry on" because when they come back claiming they're real fucked up that's on you.

 

[2after909]

It is from all these discussions and studies and people's personal testimonies that the 3 month rule was created.

can you kindly provide links? i just spent the last 15min searching the forum and didn't find anything pertinent?

 

[Folley]

DOSE(a) EFFECT NEUROTOXICITY
(mg/kg)

0.4 No observable Effect. No.

1.0 Some changes of serotonin No, probably neuromodulatory effects,
neuronal markers, among amongst which up-regulation of
which increases in serotonin serotonin system components

2.0 More long term changes in Disputed. Either neuromodulatory
predominantly decreases. effects, predominantly down-regulation
serotonin neuronal markers, of serotonin system components, or,
as some claim, the observed reductions
reflect nerve terminal degeneration.
4.0 Increased silver staining. Yes, nerve terminal degeneration.

10.0 Disappearance of serotonergic Yes, axonal degeneration.(b)
fibres and swollen and
fragmented axons.

There is a shit ton of other info like this, backed up by sources, that will tell you that MDMA ABUSE is extremely damaging; while light, one time use often leave little to no lasting impression, found here:
http://ecstasy.org/info/leon.html




It is seriously a BITCH to try and find relevant case studies though. You need to read through about 10 that have nothing important in them to find the one that can prove your point. 15 minutes is not long enough man lol, it can take hours to prove one post.

Not to mention trying to prove something you already know and have discussed literally 100+ times in the past is rather tedious

 

[parttime crackhead]

MDMA effects one of the most complex chemicals in the brain, serotonin. As such, there is no much if any actual concrete evidence one way or the other to say how it completely effects the brain.

Agreed.

Saying you and your friends can take MDMA with no NOTICABLE (note the emphasis, you'll notice it soon. Actually, if you get bad comedowns you already are) damage and advising other people to do the same is not OK here, that's the exact behavior we all have been working to discourage. If you want to be an idiot, fine. But don't bring others into your stupidity.

I wasn't really talking about me & my friends. I was talking about pretty much everyone I have ever met who takes pills. Including the whole European section of Bluelight. You will find very different advice there than you will here with regards to taking MDMA.

and what is wrong with waiting 2 years exactly? I mean, it might be a bit excessive but it won't hurt ANYONE to not do MDMA.

It won't hurt, but it won't help either. I agree that a few months off can help but anything beyond that is overkill. If you want to stop taking MDMA then stop taking it, if you want to take it then you don't need to wait 2 years.

This board used to be full of people "rollin bawlz" every week but with the work of some dedicated HR advocates we have been able to turn that around and turn this forum into a tool that can actually help people, and as you can see we aren't about to let it go back

I think you have went too far in the other direction though.

I don't think three months is the MINIMUM, I think a month should be the MINIMUM but I wouldn't do it myself every month for the year.

There is no set minimum as concrete because there hasn't been enough research into what long term effects of MDMA abuse are.

Spend a little more time on this forum and you'll see the dime a dozen threads of misguided consumers binging on MDMA and then asking the same questions "Why am I so fucked up, have I got HPPD? I'm depressed, I'm sad, I'm fatigued, I'm getting headaches" and so on and so on.

Until there is CONCRETE evidence that says you should wait an exact length of time it is better to err on the side of caution (although not being stupidly overcautious because for me HR has to be practical advice as well) than keep necking pills and end up fucked up.

As I said, what you do is your business but don't tell people to "carry on" because when they come back claiming they're real fucked up that's on you.

Fair enough. I still think you are being too cautious & not realistic. Not necessarily yourself but definitely other posters (see the 2 years guy).

Do you agree that, for example, there is absolutely no evidence or concrete proof as to the dangers of certain RCs? So should people asking about dosage info for RCs on Bluelight just simply be told "Don't ever do it because we don't have enough concrete evidence"? They should err on the side of caution, right?

It is seriously a BITCH to try and find relevant case studies though. You need to read through about 10 that have nothing important in them to find the one that can prove your point. 15 minutes is not long enough man lol, it can take hours to prove one post.

Aye, it must be murder reading through 10 studies that disprove your theory, or 10 that show no conclusive proof, before you find one that agrees with you

 

[StrutterGear]

Fair enough. I still think you are being too cautious & not realistic. Not necessarily yourself but definitely other posters (see the 2 years guy).

Do you agree that, for example, there is absolutely no evidence or concrete proof as to the dangers of certain RCs? So should people asking about dosage info for RCs on Bluelight just simply be told "Don't ever do it because we don't have enough concrete evidence"? They should err on the side of caution, right?

Yes and no. I've seen a lot of threads warning about certain RCs like MPDV and other dodgy RCs; should we just say "take as much as you like because you'll probably be fine?". Trip reports describing extreme psychosis on mephedrone and MDPV binges are also a dime a dozen.

No because until the Government legalises and regulates so we can do PROPER research into them we have to go from experience. Your experience is the anomaly I can assure you. Did you see this flange on the Channel 4 MDMA ? You should, you do not want to end up like this knob. Every weekend since he was 16 *big thumbs up*

NSFW:

What you said will cause somebody damage, we get two threads a day of people moaning about how fucked up they are because they didn't take the caution you so easily disregard.

The collective experience of people who have been doing small amounts of research have come to the conclusions that one month is minimal, and three is preferred (although not always practical) and that is what I follow.

 

[2after909]

There is a shit ton of other info like this

" total doses of 10 mg/kg or above, taken within a few days, axonal degeneration could be expected in humans." that's a very high dose. also, i don't see how that ties in with three-months breaks between rolling?

, backed up by sources, that will tell you that MDMA ABUSE is extremely damaging; while light, one time use often leave little to no lasting impression, found here:
http://ecstasy.org/info/leon.html

ok, i just read that^^^ entire article. what it says on the neurotoxicity of MDMA in humans is:

The neurotoxicity of MDMA in humans has not been established, therefore, based on human data, a level of exposure at which MDMA becomes neurotoxic cannot be determined

plus there are the extrapolations from animals which we've already discussed. how in god's name do you come up with a three-month rule based on that summary? the summary seems quite old, too (probably written in the late 90s).

It is seriously a BITCH to try and find relevant case studies though.

yet you see so confident about minimum required break lengths that you speak of a three-month rule.

Not to mention trying to prove something you already know and have discussed literally 100+ times in the past is rather tedious

at this point, i gotta call bs on this

 

[Folley]

"The Pirate's Code is not really a set of rules.. more like a guide"


If you don't like the 3 month rule, don't follow it. I agree you probably don't need to wait that long EVERY time you roll, but taking a nice long break after rolling once a month for a few months is necessary to maintaining a healthy 5-HT system.

If I roll one month and then again after 30 days or so, I make sure the next break is longer to make up for that, because I like to play on the safe side. I have abuse MDMA in the past and gone through the extremely negative side effects that come with abuse of MDMA, and have found that being depressed for a few weeks after a roll is not worth it and that I would rather wait longer, roll better and not deal with those negative effects.


If you don't want to follow our guidelines, fine. But get out of ED, because we fought for that shit here

The neurotoxicity of MDMA in humans has not been established, therefore, based on human data, a level of exposure at which MDMA becomes neurotoxic cannot be determined

This is because studies on neurotoxicity in humans has never and probably will never be done. In this case, we must use the information we can get from studies done on animals with similar brain structures and 5-HT systems to infer the kind of damage that MDMA can cause in Humans.

 

[parttime crackhead]

(edit - @StrutterGear) - I don't completely disagree with you, so I'm not going to argue with you all night about how long a break people should take. I do totally disagree with the 2 years break shout & the dude who has been off the MD for 5 months now & is still waiting because he thinks it will somehow make it better, imo after a few months any longer wait will make absolutely no difference.

I also disagree that my experience is "the anomaly". Unless there is a physiological difference between MDMA users from the UK & MDMA users from the US. Like I said, the advice on the European section of this same website is wildly different (far more in line with mine than yours) from the advice given here. There doesn't seem to be too many MD-casualties from the UK, are we just simply better at taking drugs?

If you don't want to follow our guidelines, fine. But get out of ED, because we fought for that shit here

You need to get a grip of yourself & climb down off your high horse. "But get out of ED"? Fuck off.

This is because studies on neurotoxicity in humans has never and probably will never be done. In this case, we must use the information we can get from studies done on animals with similar brain structures and 5-HT systems to infer the kind of damage that MDMA can cause in Humans.

Do they not tend to do studies on mice/rats? & also to inject massive amounts of MDMA directly into their brains? Which they then chop up & test to say "Yes, this is bad". Sounds legit to me I personally don't know anyone who injects MDMA directly into their brain.

 

[2after909]

If you don't want to follow our guidelines, fine.

what makes you thing i don't want to follow the guidelines?

But get out of ED, because we fought for that shit here

fortunately, that's not up to you to decide.

back to topic: thedea.org actually references some interesting studies on the break issue. for example, he summarizes Semple et al (1999) as follows:

The reductions in SERT density depended on how long it had been since the person's last use of 'ecstasy'. What changes did occur from 'ecstasy' use fully reversed themselves in less than four weeks.

some other interesting discussion on that website as well. none of the discussion seems to point to an optimal break length of more than a month.

 

[BlueHues]

What absolute nonsense. The first post from a moderator! 8(

There's no way that you need to wait months in between taking pills. A few weeks at most. Can anyone tell me where you all are getting this information from other than daft American kids who are far too cautious when it comes to taking MDMA? Most people I know went through at least a year of taking MDMA pretty much every weekend & in far higher doses than I suspect a lot of you will take (someone mentioned 100mg??? LOL. The pills around here just now are apparently around 120-180mg each & I would take at least 3, usually more, on an average night out) & no-one has caused any damage to themselves as far as I know, other than some stinking comedowns

OP - You'll be fine. I highly doubt that you've caused any damage & suggest taking a good few weeks off as you have done it a bit excessively. In the future try to give it a couple weeks at least. Don't listen to these clowns who say "3 months is the minumum" etc. They talk rubbish. They really think you're only going to take pills 4 times a year??? Dude says to wait 2 YEARS? Haha, calm down!

Some of you kids wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in the '90s rave scene.....I mean we had pockets full of everything, K, pills, mushrooms, acid, fucking Angel dust!...people giving pills away!...Nobody around to monitor or stop it!...I've seen people do ridiculous combos of drugs for years(myself included), maybe get a little loopy, a little fried, and then go on to live their lives without too much of a problem!

Of course, if you do WAY too much of everything, it's definitely possible to fuck yourself up, I've seen it a few times, but it's pretty fucking rare! In my eighteen years of knowing people dealing and using E, I can't really think of anyone I know that has obvious permanent damage from it...Maybe a little fried, but hey!

the brain, and the way substances affect the brain is still poorly understood and poorly studied...

the upstarts on this websitw who've studied a little brain science and read a couple of studies that think they know everything just begins to piss me off! Of course, I used to think I knew everything about drugs too!!

I used to deal Ex, and after going on a few binges with it, you realize pretty quickly that it's pointless to keep trying to get high off it! you get a tolerance and it ceases to really work! It's self limiting in a way....but I've even seen people continue to keep increasing their dose to ridiculous levels to try to get a good roll...and yeah, they get a little loopy and depressed and then go back too normal...

What you kids are dealing with today that we never had before is all these weird RCs being sold as ex or K or speed or whatever! I've seen way worse shit happen in a short period of time than I ever saw from years of being around ecstasy!

 

[StrutterGear]

(edit - @StrutterGear) - I don't completely disagree with you, so I'm not going to argue with you all night about how long a break people should take. I do totally disagree with the 2 years break shout & the dude who has been off the MD for 5 months now & is still waiting because he thinks it will somehow make it better, imo after a few months any longer wait will make absolutely no difference.

I also disagree that my experience is "the anomaly". Unless there is a physiological difference between MDMA users from the UK & MDMA users from the US. Like I said, the advice on the European section of this same website is wildly different (far more in line with mine than yours) from the advice given here. There doesn't seem to be too many MD-casualties from the UK, are we just simply better at taking drugs?

I live in London, mate. I think 2 years is over the top, but I won't speculate on how much damage is reversed in what time frame because nobody knows... yet..

You can never wait too long, that is our point... but you can do it too often. If anything waiting longer will make you roll better and I can say that from experience.

 

[parttime crackhead]

Why do you talk about rolling if you live in London? Don't people give you funny looks?

You must then realise that practically all of the ridiculous posts regarding MDMA on this forum are from Americans? Does anyone know why that is? I've never heard of anyone in the UK wondering if it's OK to wear a hat while "rolling" haha.

 

[StrutterGear]

Why do you talk about rolling if you live in London? Don't people give you funny looks?

I've never said the word "rolling" in reality but 80% of the people on here are American. All I call it is "getting on it", "fucked", MD and Mandy. No molly, no moonrocks no nothing.

Gotta speak the lingo my friend.

 

[parttime crackhead]

Haha, sound. Just making sure. What are "moonrocks" meant to be?