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  • EADD Moderators: Shambles

Israel and Gaza

I just can't concieve how this time will be any different.

I can't concieve a single argument to your post, in all honesty. As usual it's all about haves & have-nots :(

If we could all just share & share alike... there really is plenty resources & plenty of space on this planet for everyone. The present status quo is unsustainable & everything's just very, very, VERY unfairly managed & always has been.
 
I can't concieve a single argument to your post, in all honesty. As usual it's all about haves & have-nots :(

If we could all just share & share alike... there really is plenty resources & plenty of space on this planet for everyone. The present status quo is unsustainable & everything's just very, very, VERY unfairly managed & always has been.

Wait, haves and have nots?

Care to get more specific as to who has and who doesn't?

And remember that why can't we just share and share alike, everyone gets the same piece of the pie BS is idealism not based in reality. People are animals, and we have a long way to go before that could even be a possibility, if at all.

Your post makes very little sense to me as well 8), are you going off tangent on economic status and why the whole world should embrace socialism? Or that we have democracy, and others have not, and we should go bomb the shit out of them to share democracy?

I'm just throwing out wild guesses here since your post makes no sense to me.
 
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Wait, haves and have nots?

Care to get more specific as to who has and who doesn't?

And remember that why can't we just share and share alike, everyone gets the same piece of the pie BS is idealism not based in reality. People are animals, and we have a long way to go before that could even be a possibility, if at all.

Your post makes very little sense to me as well 8), are you going off tangent on economic status and why the whole world should embrace socialism? Or that we have democracy, and others have not, and we should go bomb the shit out of them to share democracy?

I'm just throwing out wild guesses here since your post makes no sense to me.

I'm tired.

I got the impression you were suggesting that the US & the world powers wield their power & influence primarilly for economic reasons, not to stop other people hurting one another suxh as in the last week in Israel/Gaza, am I correct? If so, then I concur & believe that if the West could export goodwill as well as goods, we might make progress with seemingly intractable situations such as in the Middle East. In other words, they should learn that lives are more valuable than profits & those lives can be profitable for everyone!

It's not socialism to wish for more equitability for the worlds populations even if it is idealistic. I'm not suggestng everyone give up their car or some other luxury I'm suggesting that the whole globalism game is being played entirely for the benefit of a particular heirarchy of economies to the detrement of all the others. A more fair approach to global trade would even out the wealth distribution slowly, making wars over land & resources less likely. Strictly in my own personal opinion.

Also strictly in my own opinion, I believe that in this case it is the Israelis that are the "haves" & the Palestinians who have not. People are people, I don't like to see Israelis suffer under constant attack & I don't like to see Palestinians crammed into the strip, poverty striken & with no forseeable way out of it.
 
SiIngwe: 'Disappointed by the slow US response.': It is called a Tactical Alliance. It is how they operate. That being what it is, why should the US be overly concerned? In the last 10 months more than 2,200 rockets, mortar shells and missiles have been launched from Gaza into Israel. Only am inbecile would be unable to predict the Israeli response. Seeing as how HAMAS has subjected the people it claims to fight for to an Israeli attack in 2008/2009, the US and most other Western nations were letting Israel neutralise launch sites and cachets before calling for intervention. In the end Israel felt that it had gotten a good run for its money and enthusiatically became party to the Egyptian brokered ceasefire.


'Both parties are equally guilty.': If we are talking legally vis a vis LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict), Israel is not guilty, HAMAS is hands down. The principle of Distinction was violated with each and every one of the 2,200-plus projectiles launched from Gaza since Western New Year. Jus ad Bellum (the portion of LOAC devoted to precursors of 3med conflicts) was violated by HAMAS a multitude of times. Specifically, Casus Belli (legal justification for initiatiating armed conflict) was offered to Israel the very first time a Gazan projectile cleared the Border Fece.

If we are speaking of morality, it is subjective...BUT...MOST rational adults tend to judge THAT via intent. One 1 hand we have HAMAS, an organisation whose very Charter vows to EXTERMINATE every Jew on the planet, not just Israelis and/or Zionists (as if that were somehow more just). It is an organisation that proudly targets civilians with the stated aim of killing them. The Israeli intent? Israel dropped literally hundreds of thousands of Arabic Language leaflets warning civilans to disassociate from HAMAS personel, facilities and equipment. It sent literally tens of thousands of phone calls and hundreds of thousands of SMS messages (text messages). Israel Roof Knocked (used non-lethal shells dropped on the roofs of targeted buildings at least 10 minutes prior to a given airstrike, allowing civilains to safely vacate the premises ahead of attacks. Israel diverted deployed missiles via guidance systems if and when civilians were detected post release and aborted bombing runs when civilians moved in the general direction of intended strikes. Israel clearly did not intend to harm civilians. So, if we are discussing intent, HAMAS again is guilty and Israel is not.

Sadly, armed conflict is not a sterile endeavour where certainties are guaranteed. Gaza, in terms of demographical standards, is literally the world's most densely populated territory. It is home to more than 2.2 million people of whom the vast majority are civilians. Using this to their advantage HAMAS hides behind its civilian population. Hydraulically lifted launch pads for Faj'r-5 missiles dot residential areas. Israel was able to neutralise more than 100 of them, ALL in and around residential compounds. HAMAS keeps most projectile cachets in residential buildings. It fires projectiles even as children play around them, as was the sad case of the Qassam rocket which detonated while on the launcher in a residential alley in Jabaliyah, north of Gaza City during the Egyptian Prime Minister's visit to Gaza. Israel unilaterally issued a SOMO (Suspension of Military Operations) for the duration of the visit despite it taking place in the midst of the conflict. This of course did not stop HAMAS from trying to kill Israeli civilains. Kids were playing football around the launcher and when the Qassam detonated it killed 4 year old Mahmoud Sadallah (and his neighbour 22 year old Aiman Abu Wardah). When Sadallah's lifeless body was taken to al Shifa Hospital in Gaza City the media had a field day snapping photos of the Egyptian PM and Gazan (HAMAS) PM Ismail Hanniyeh both tearfully cradling the dead boy whose demise was- naturally- pinned on Israel. In an especially iconic photo utilised by the BBC, the Egyptian PM lovingly kissed Mahmoud's bruised and bloodied forehead and tearfully vowed to stop Israel from killing any more children.

So, morally, I reckon most rational adults- IF made aware of the FACTS- would also find Israel operating from moral high ground.

'Maybe Israel would ease up on its Blockade...': Heavens, let us hope not, at least while HAMAS is running the show. Between 2001 when the 1st projectile was launched, and September of 2005 when Israel unilaterally ceded Gaza and withdrew, there were less than 500 projectiles launched against Israeli civilians. Since Israel left however, nearly 8,500 have been launched. When Israel left they were launching Qassam-2s, rockets that flew less than 3km, never reached high altitudes and did not fly straight. Most notably, they carried 5kg payloads of crudely manufactured homemade explosives. Since then? The Enhanced Grads (Katyushas), the Chinese manufactured WS-E1, flies more than 40 kilometers and carries a 30kg payload of Chinese military grade explosives. More worrisome is the aforementioned Faj'r-5. Iranian made- part of the $300 Million in military assistance Iran gives HAMAS each year- it is 8 meters tall, weighs 1,200kg and carriers up to a 375kg warhead of Iranian military grade explosives. These behemoths fly up to 80km, threatening both Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. HAMAS and most "Palestinian" groups will only use a cessation of the Blockade as a means by which to advance their armed cause and harm Israeli civilians. I need to also add that with the Muslim Brotherhood's ascencion to power in Egypt the Egyptian border crossing at Rafah in Gaza has usually had an unrestricted flow of goods, not that the Blockade ever stopped importation of commodities AND contraban given the tunnels in Rafah.

'Ceasefire achieved via US pressure on Israel...': Israel did not need pressure. It had reached the end of the Air Phase and a Ground Incursion is extremely costly both in terms of the economy and in manpower. It also makes it extremely difficult not to squander whatever goodwill it was receiving from the International Community. America's role was simply to serve as the neccessary intemediary for Israel since negotiations with HAMAS were impossible and Egypt was unwilling to deal with Israel at that point (Egypt had once again withdrawn its Ambassador and therefore needed to appear resolute).
 
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Ceres: 'The killing of Gaza's elected officials by Israel.': First, there are no "elected officials of Gaza" at this point. HAMAS illegaly seized power from the elected governing entity, the PA (Palestinian Authority), in a violent coup that took place in 2007. As for Israel "killing" members of the HAMAS regime in Gaza, only lawful combatants are targetted by Israel. If you are referring to the case of Ahmed Ja'abari, whose killing was the opening salvo in this latest Gazan conflict, Ja'abari was the leader of HAMAS' military wing (his actual rank was #2 but he became the de facto leader more than a decade ago when the actual leader Muhammad De'if was critically wounded by the Israeli Air Force). As a member of the military wing he is a lawful target according the LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict), vis a vis the 1949 Geneva Convention, Article 3 and APII (Additional Protocol II), Article 1(1). The man was neck deep in Israeli blood and was the direct link to Iran's $300 Million US in annual military assistance to HAMAS. Your belief that is "outside International Law" is incorrect.

'Israel called cyber attacks against it "The Second Front" which is overkill.': The 44 millon attacks were real courtesy of Iran and hackers like the Anonymous collective. They failed miserably which isn't suprising considering that Israel has the most technologically driven economy in the world. As for a "Second Front," SIGINT (Signal Intelligence) is one of the largest desks in military intelligence in any military that can afford it. The battle against the Iranian nuclear programme is being primarily fought in cyberspace. An alleged joint operation by Israel (IDF AMAN Unit 8200) and the US (National Security Agency), "Operation Olympic Games," infiltrated the Iranian military grid with a worm (in several variants) that spun out of control, "Stuxnet," in 2010. Stuxnet was viscious and targetted Siemens SCADA systems like the kind surreptitiously obtained by Iran in contravention of Sanctions. One thousand out of Iran's five thousand centrifuges were taken out of service. It was a huge victory. Lightening struck twice with a second worm, "Flame." Actually, Flame, allegedly all Israeli, is a sleeper that infiltrated the grid approximately 5 years ago. Unlike Stuxnet, Flame doesn't aim to sabotage. Instead it steals files and managed to do so effectivelt that Iran was forced to unhook its petrol infrastructure from the grid.

Iran then began its own concerted effort in 2011 with a new military division, "Passive Resistance Organisation," in addition to extant desks within the Revolutionary Guards. In August of this year the Iranian manufactured virus "Shamoon" managed to throw Aramco- Saudi Arabia's largest petrol corporation- offline by overwriting (as opposed to "overriding") 30,000 terminals. Iranian efforts are infantile, Denial of Service assaults and the like.

SiIngwe: 'The US is Israel's main supplier of weaponry.': Israel is itself the 4th largest exporter of weapons in the world and produces everything from fighter jets- to ICBMs (Inter Continental Ballistic Missiles)- to assault rifles (the Tavor TR21 has revolutionised the genre). The US has no leverage. Its UN Security Council Veto is great and all that but the 2 nations are tactical allies, not friends or even strategic partners.

Daytryptr: 'The Afghan Taliban's close association with al Qadah is debatable.': You must be very young to think like that. It was the Afghan Taliban that invited Bin Laden to leave Sudan and settle in Afghanistan. Then, after 9/11 when the US demanded that the Taliban co-operate in apprehending Bin Laden and the rest of al Qadah, the Afghan Taliban refused. When the US initially attacked Afghanistan al Qadah and the Afghan Taliban fought shoulder to shoulder against America.

'America is in Afghanistan because of poppies and natural resources.': You must be unaware that America has one foot out the door already. In less than 18 months America is leaving and just today several more provinces were transferred to the command and control of the Afghan military. It is true that natural resources play a vital role just as they do in almost every single armed conflict in the history of man. It is the number one engine in any war. But poppies? Really, do you believe such ridiculous nonsense? Why would any sovereign nation need to use armed force to control the opium trade when they can maunfacture synthetics like 3-methyl fentanyl for literally pennies? I mean, assuming one really believed that the US Government dealt drugs. People conflate covert funding debacles with wide reaching government control. Moreover, just because segments of the intelligence community looked the other way when foreign assets dabbled in the trade it does not mean that intelligence bureaus engaged in the trade themselves.

'Why has America remained in Afghanistan?': Because it has been making a concerted effort to shore up the Karzai regime. Had the US pulled out Karzai would have been violently deposed and the lynchpin nation of Afghanistan would be once again in the throes of turmoil.

'America squandered the precious little goodwill it had earned in WWII when it dropped 2 nuclear bombs on Japanese civilians.': The alternative would have been the ground invasion in which the vast bulk of Japanese men would have fought the Americans to the death. America gave Japan the opportunity to surrender peacefully, not once but twice. The Japanese refused until the second bombing. America operated according to Customary Practice and did so legally and to many, with a moral advantage in that many more lives were saved- both American AND Japanese- by the bombings.
 
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Ignorance is bliss. I know fuck all about this tragic situation apart from innocents dying,as always,tit for tat missile exchanges for a chunk of desert?

Jews don't rate Jesus.Fuck them off to Siberia.Loads of room.

My cock is circumsised and is extremely sensitive aftr climax.I have no Jewish ancestry.

that is all.
 
Ignorance is bliss. I know fuck all about this tragic situation apart from innocents dying,as always,tit for tat missile exchanges for a chunk of desert?

Jews don't rate Jesus.Fuck them off to Siberia.Loads of room.

My cock is circumsised and is extremely sensitive aftr climax.I have no Jewish ancestry.

that is all.

One more,i promise- "the jew cries out in pain as he strikes"

Can't tell if trolling or just retardedly antisemetic/rascist.

You do know not all jews on planet earth live in israel, or live in the middle east, cry out in pain as they strike, or even follow judiasm or give a jack fucking wad about any religious figure, that includes jesus, which is a kind of confusing thing to throw in your rant.

Lets all generalize a ethnicity of people by actions of some, thats what hitler did. And siberia = concentration camps/genocide.

Your a very sick person.

BTW, i'm glad your parents took the time to make your dick look fancy when you were born. Its a worthwhile thing to brag about. I respect my parents more for not mutilating my ninja turtle at birth without my consent.

I propose we ship all the people of european decent back to europe. Since they fucking invaded and took north america for themselves when someone else was living there, one that was exterminated by and large. (obviously being sarcastic, but not about what really happend, who our founding fathers really were), but if you follow the logic you use to rationalize comitting genocide/mass deportation of jews to siberia, you have to agree with that as well. Albiet that is nicer, since your sending them home rather to a barren wasteland to starve/freeze to death.
 
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