Psychotic Breakthrough

[azgaza]

There are plenty of rather recent studies that confirm ketamine can be quite a powerful antidepressant; in small amounts with time in between usage it is also rather safe; however be aware that in some (like me) ketamine can become véry addictive, pay attention to that possibility well before you get into a proper dissociative habit because when seriously abused, ketamine is not nearly as safe anymore (especially being capable of causing damage to the bladder. Start of with deciding what you find reasonable usage and stick to that.

 

[velmwend]

Ketamine studies are focussing on the role of glutamate in the brain. Research has shown that depressed people and schizophrenics have higher than average glutamate. They're hoping to develop a drug that deals with this glutamate and relieve depression, they're not suggesting that ketamine is going to become a prescription drug, but they are interested in how K deals with glutamate and helps resolve high levels. Someone correct me I'm wrong. After reading about this, I've decided to avoid all high msg-containing products. I think any depressive should be *very* careful about msg intake and keep it to as minimal level as poss!

Good luck with your travels, Hawaii. When you've released your album let us know.

 

[K1nGp1N]

dissociatives are underrated and not as bad for you as people think sometimes. Just don't do it on psychiatric medication

 

[velmwend]

I'm still very interested in some low dose fly agaric therapy during deep winter. I can't purchase any more tonics til after xmas now...so much money to save for kids' gifts, etc. In jan maybe...

 

[Mootoo]

I can't take LSA or other long lasting psychedelics, because of many reasons...my mum calls, friends call me whatever and they distract me from that.
I would do it for both the aspects...spiritual and creative.

I'm sorry, but that is your reason for not taking long-lasting psychedelics? (And any spiritual experience will be long-lasting... if you think it could be like a quick stroll in the park, then it'd never work... and even a quick stroll isn't satisfying.) Besides, if your mum calls when you're on a dissociative you'd be even more unable to talk to her sensibly - the world dissolves with them, whereas with psychedelics it mostly looks different.

But really, phone calls? Just switch it off! Creativity doesn't happen in between being disturbed.

 

[Solipsis]

I think he meant breakdown.. Where somebody can just snap and they're never quite the same..

Although yeah a K-hole is VERY unlikely to cause the snap.. and wouldn't in a healthy person.

Why do you say that? Ketamine is a dissociative and affects the sigma receptor, both things associated with mental illness. I agree that healthy people i.e. those who do not suffer from latent nor overt mental illness should be able to handle the experience unless something truly traumatic were to happen but the trouble is: we tend not to be aware of latent illness until it is too late, that is why it is initially latent!

My opinion is: you would be taking a risk (actually I think that's a fact), just know that and make up your mind.
Similar to psychedelics, dissociatives have a penchant for transformation and this can be both good and bad... depending on a number of factors virtually impossible to all keep track of (but we should try to do our best anyway using the set and setting rule). So, there is a chance it can be medicinal for what ails you and there is a chance it will give you more problems such as addiction, depersonalization, derealization, indeed psychosis, and so on.

I'd say it is a bit more easy to spot potential problems such as a weakness for addictions, than reasons to suspect ketamine (or another psychoactive) will be a solution to your issues. Positive transformation seems to be harder to predict, correct me if I'm wrong.

Not trying to spook you, just saying that it can go either way and it comes down to how confident you feel that you are stable enough to handle experiences that may be hard to make sense of, or stable enough to withstand using it more and more often. And that it is your choice and if you choose to take K, just be willing to accept the possible consequences. The statistical chance that it will FUBAR you may not be very big, still don't ignore it completely. And addiction is significantly more realistic already. On the other hand it can be quite special, remarkable and indeed beneficial when used responsibly, take it all into account.

>> coming from a recovering K addict.

 

[hawaii]

Thank you very much for your reply.

Talking about "latent illness": I don't think I'm risking to bring out a mental illness. As you say, we never know, but it would have already come out in my case from my past psychoactive drugs use. (Daily marijuana/hash and some experiences with LSA/LSD/MDMA plus the occasional stimulants use).

OK, Ketamine works on different receptors from what I know than the substances listed above but in terms of handling strange situations/thoughts/experiences I'm not THAT unprepared.

Initially I tried to convince my psychiatrist to do K together, during his sessions, but he refused because he believe in another route (still in the past suggested my Antidepressants and benzos tho, but I refused and he was happy of this my decision).
But at least he said we can talk about my future experiences and try to integrate them in my life, which sounds like a "safe" and controlled way to handle them.

As soon as I get K, I'll let you know.

In the mean time, other suggestions/opinions are much appreciated.

 

[yepyepwoah]

Since a year I'm frequenting a psychiatrist.
Initially because I had a depression period.
I wasn't able to have positive thoughts and do quite anything in real life.
Now everything changed. I'm feeling well and my work is going greater than I have ever expected, so I'm in a very positive period.
With my psychiatrist we started talking about Ketamine (which I never done) and my past drugs experiences.
He sometimes says I'm right to do what I need to do to feel good and I personally tried to explain why I'm interested in the Ketamine experience (I became aware of this substance years ago but only after having read books by John Lilly, Karl Jansen and docs by Stanislav Grof I have a brighter idea about this drug).
I'm about to try it in a week or so and today we talked about this.
He tried to explain me that in life what makes us evolve is the everyday "struggle" (he quoted "Faust" by Goethe) rather than a single experience (possibly the K-hole..).
We also talked about schizofrenia and he said that psychotic people experience a kind of breakthrough (which has not be my case, but who knows by now) and then they remain psychotic for their life and that the K-Hole can be something like that.

Honestly I don't think I'll go for the K-Hole the very first time but I think I'll try to reach it as my life goes on...so...

Now I feel a bit worried.
In the end he said that we'll integrate my experiences within my life with no problem and that I'm a healthy person but somehow he warned me about this.

What do you guys think?

Your psychiatrist is right. The "breakthrough" is the awakening of the spiritual energy present in all of us. This is a beautiful experience, IMO the basis for any +4 "i met god" psychedelic experience, but can leave a person devastated.

The dark part of the self, reflected in society, would rather lock away those that illustrate to humanity the power we all possess. Anyone exhibiting these type of behaviors and thoughts is better locked away, lest they "infect" the rest of humanity with the realization that all it takes is... a realization.

http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystems1.com/downloads/kundalini-psychosis-or-transcendence.pdf

http://www.newbrainnewworld.com/?Awakening_of_Kundalini:Kundalini_and_Psychosis

 

[Obsidius]

ketamine is actually studied as "immediate antidepressant for suicide patients" because normal antidepressants tend to build up too slow for someone living on the edge, whilst ketamine's antidepressant effects are instant.

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01507181

maybe your psychiatrist knows about that and is therefore open minded about K?

 

[hawaii]

Your psychiatrist is right. The "breakthrough" is the awakening of the spiritual energy present in all of us. This is a beautiful experience, IMO the basis for any +4 "i met god" psychedelic experience, but can leave a person devastated.

The dark part of the self, reflected in society, would rather lock away those that illustrate to humanity the power we all possess. Anyone exhibiting these type of behaviors and thoughts is better locked away, lest they "infect" the rest of humanity with the realization that all it takes is... a realization.

http://www.kundaliniawakeningsystems1.com/downloads/kundalini-psychosis-or-transcendence.pdf

http://www.newbrainnewworld.com/?Awakening_of_Kundalini:Kundalini_and_Psychosis

i'm reading them!
thank you.

 

[top drawer]

I had been hospitalized 5 times for psychotic symptoms and suicidality, been to 3 treatment facilities even the state hospital. (Escaped from one but that's a different story) I had been on more than 6 different antipsychotics and tried 3 mood stabilizers. At the time, I had been an avid dxm user but never had really fucked with high doses.

After an experience I had that was truly otherworldly and indescribable on 1500mg of dxm (certainly a 4th plateau dose), I haven't hada single hallucination since. I don't think that the dose itself had anything to do with it but what I learned and experienced changed my life.

Dxm is also a dissociative and I've heard of ketamine users hitting the khole and curing depression so maybe it's a thing among dissociatives.

 

[TangerinO]

There are plenty of rather recent studies that confirm ketamine can be quite a powerful antidepressant; in small amounts with time in between usage it is also rather safe; however be aware that in some (like me) ketamine can become véry addictive, pay attention to that possibility well before you get into a proper dissociative habit because when seriously abused, ketamine is not nearly as safe anymore (especially being capable of causing damage to the bladder. Start of with deciding what you find reasonable usage and stick to that.

I was going say something along these lines

 

[YellowNikes]

The psychotic break your psych is most likely referring to is the phenomena (not to much actual evidence of this phenomena besides anecdotal evidence by the way) where some one who is at risk of being a schizophrenic or like disease/condition and a psychedelic experience "triggers" the condition.
ketamine and other dissociatives are not really psychedelics and it is usually tryptamines (LSD, LSA, DMT among many many more) or Phenethylamines (the 2c- substances and many many more)
The fact that you have all ready done LSD and LSA and did not become a schizophrenic(or other condition) means that the risk of this phenomena happening to you is very low because the "triggering" that these psychadelics can cause usually happens shortly after the experience.
Also ketamine is not one of these true psychedelics so id say you are pretty much in the green on this one.
I wouldn't worry about the psychotic breakthrough in this situation

Well just looked at the dates so im guessing you all ready experienced the k
How was it and how did it affect your life?

 

[hawaii]

The psychotic break your psych is most likely referring to is the phenomena (not to much actual evidence of this phenomena besides anecdotal evidence by the way) where some one who is at risk of being a schizophrenic or like disease/condition and a psychedelic experience "triggers" the condition.
ketamine and other dissociatives are not really psychedelics and it is usually tryptamines (LSD, LSA, DMT among many many more) or Phenethylamines (the 2c- substances and many many more)
The fact that you have all ready done LSD and LSA and did not become a schizophrenic(or other condition) means that the risk of this phenomena happening to you is very low because the "triggering" that these psychadelics can cause usually happens shortly after the experience.
Also ketamine is not one of these true psychedelics so id say you are pretty much in the green on this one.
I wouldn't worry about the psychotic breakthrough in this situation

Well just looked at the dates so im guessing you all ready experienced the k
How was it and how did it affect your life?

I feel what you mean too, thank you!
By the way I haven't tried it yet. I'm away from home since a week, I will probably do it this weekend and let you know.

 

[kamill]

Posted this on another site earlier today but it's probably better here:

I had to take time off school recently for anxiety reasons and will be attending therapy for my depression and social anxiety. Over the past weeks, however, I went through about .75 g of MXE after a 2 month break from dissociatives. I think I used it consistently for about half a week and its been about another half a week since I stopped. Since that session I've felt like a million bucks and have sorted out a lot of problems in my life, although I can feel the effects fade more every day. This is exciting to me because of all the relatively new research with ketamine being an effective antidepressant. I plan to take another small t-break, maybe about a month, to help reset any residual tolerance and form a consistent dosing schedule. Has anyone done or considered doing the same?

I have definitely had my times of over usage, but looking on the bright side those times have taught me a good lesson as well as shown me my limits. It's obvious I can't handle it myself so I will be having a friend hold my supply for me; I don't need the extra anxiety trying to maintain extreme self-control. My main concerns are dosage, timing, and tolerance and trying to form a balance amongst these factors. I think I will start at 150mg (probably 50mg early in the day and 100mg later to cap it off) once a week and see how long the residual effects last and which way my tolerance is headed. It would be nice to find a regimen with a sustainable tolerance. I am keeping a mindset similar to current antidepressant therapy as it seems logical.

Also interesting is the relation between NMDA and AMPA receptors. Apparently ketamine's rapid effectiveness is only indirectly due to NMDA antagonism, and is mostly due to increased AMPA activity from this antagonism and increased BDNF levels. This makes a lot of sense to me as I always feel refreshed after a dissociative session, as if my mind and body have been "reset". It's the only thing that allows me to objectify my problems and get through things when I am being my own worst enemy. As a simile, this reminds a lot of computers and how it's healthy for them to be rebooted every so often. For this reason I am also going to research nootropics to incorporate into my regimen, as well as research the glutamate system in general. I have dabbled in piracetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam, and noopept with variable efficacy, but noticed great stuff from oxiracetam. I was never fastidious in my dosing, however, but plan to be now. Racetams in general have been theorized to work by increasing AMPA activity, and noopept has shown to increase BDNF levels which is why I think they could help. I really feel this a novel area of research as depression and related disorders are like cancer: there is not one single cause even if the manifested symptoms are similar (some need ssris for serotonin, some need stims for dopamine/norepinephrine), and it's not all chemical-based, so you can't throw ssris at everybody and expect them to improve.

Thanks for reading if you got this far lol. I guess I'm mostly interested in experience regarding (relatively) controlled usage and how it affected your tolerance over time.

Overall I think these compounds just need a healthy amount of respect for what they can do to you if abused if you want to experience anything beneficial. As far as responsible usage it obviously comes down to your personal body chemistry as with any medication.

 

[hawaii]

Nice reading! Thanks.