Codeine & CWE Megathread: Version II - [insert witty title]

[AminoAcid]

Sounds like the idiosyncratic reactions I have to Tramadol... But I dunno if codeine can do that.

Could it be that you had an asthma attack followed by a panic attack? Codeine alone is bad enough for it but, if you used an Ibu product, the reaction could be even worse.

What about a histamine reaction and subsequent panic attack?

** Just did a bit more research. Apparently all opiates are capable of causing an idiosyncratic (random) reaction.

Yeah this seems highly likely, random hypersensitivity can apparently occur with codeine (probably increased in chance by the fact that I had no tolerance), and one of the manufacturers has a section online warning about this. It could've been a panic attack, but I haven't had one of those for quite a few years, but yes the symptoms were incredibly similar (especially the struggling to breathe properly part).

It wasn't a histamine reaction though as there was no swelling, redness or itching.

Struth, I didn't even see that. 500ml is far too much water even for an Ibu product. Incredibly dangerous.

Well at room temperature ibuprofen is <1mg/mL soluble in water, so in such a case I would be getting at a maximum the equivalent of around 2.5 tablets of Nurofen per wash, so not really "incredibly dangerous". Because of its low solubility you would have to be hitting up in the liters to be reaching dangerous level. Also considering that we're talking about cold water here, the ibuprofen solubility would be significantly less than even this (see: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10953-004-1051-2?LI=true).

 

[Captain Brewster]

Yeah but you don't need that much water, so why do it?

You can fit a whole gram of codeine in 2.3mls of water at 21deg.
That's fuck all water.

All your doing is adding more toxic ibu/para to the mix.

I don't see the point in this, it's not safe. If someone try's it with this method and for some reason fucks up the filter method then they could possibly have permanent damage to certain organs, depending on what tabs you choose.
I can't imagine the coffee filters appreciating that much liquid going through them.

 

[Oxyuranus]

Well at room temperature ibuprofen is <1mg/mL soluble in water, so in such a case I would be getting at a maximum the equivalent of around 2.5 tablets of Nurofen per wash, so not really "incredibly dangerous". Because of its low solubility you would have to be hitting up in the liters to be reaching dangerous level. Also considering that we're talking about cold water here, the ibuprofen solubility would be significantly less than even this (see: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10953-004-1051-2?LI=true).

Sorry mate, but you were giving advice to someone extracts using a para product. Therefore it is incredibly dangerous, especially if used on a regular basis and particularly if that person drinks alcohol.


I had a massive panic attack the first time I used codeine to ease Oxy WDs. Haha that was a horrible afternoon... I spent it pacing the house resisting the urge to call the ambulance. I convinced myself that I somehow stuffed the extraction and was ODing on Para

 

[AminoAcid]

Yeah but you don't need that much water, so why do it?

Not sure, basically over time I just found that amount works well and is easy to drink. I never actually sat down and did any calculations, but rather just experience.

para product.

Yeah I wouldn't use a paracetamol product in CWE.
In fact I was watching a lecture by a chemist recently and he pointed out that if paracetamol had been discovered today, it most likely wouldn't even pass the FDA requirements to get onto the market because it's so hepatoxic.

 

[Captain Brewster]

Why not use less for the extraction, then add more water to the finished product?

More ibu will get through with that much water, and if your doing it daily I'd be more worried about my organs than a codeine addiction.

 

[Evilomlap]

Okay firstly, in response to a lot of the posts here concerned about how much paracetamol ends up in the finished product - I CWE 160+ tablets (500mg para, 8-10mg codeine) on a regular basis (roughly twice a week), I have never bothered with the t-shirt filtering before using coffee filters, and my liver and kidneys were recently tested - functioning normally. Note* I am very, very careful with my CWEs, but I have only ever used coffee filters. Not trying to change anyone's mind, just wanted to share that I consider using a t-shirt to filter an unnecessary step in an already arduous process. Anyway...

Secondly - it had to happen eventually - I read in the news today that they are again calling (who's they?? i have no idea lol) for OTC codeine products to be made prescription-only in Australia. I for one am hoping that doesn't happen, but then again maybe it'll come as a relief if it does. In terms of effort vs reward, CWE at the doses I need in order to feel anything is getting to be off the f*cking scales - every time I do it I'm reminded of what a pain in the ass it is to get to that "ahhhh" moment when it kicks in...

Thoughts??

 

[Oxyuranus]

^^ if you filter with the tshirt first, the filtering time is literally halved. (Unless your using the original panadeine brand, then it filters extremely quickly anyway as I'm sure you know!)

 

[Stato]

Got put on 8mg suboxone maintenance today.

Happily "high" but not craving any opiates. 8mg is a fair bit of suboxone for someone on 1500mg codeine + 400mg dihydrocodeine + tramadol 50-500mg (either, or, or combination).... a 30mg oxy(instant) had me pretty nicely half way there last week.


At least due to my legal situatuon and my drug testing / Bail I will not be at risk any more.

 

[spacejunk]

^ good to hear man. I hope you're doing ok

 

[opi8]

Codeine abuse leads to calls for painkiller rethink

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-06/codeine-abuse-leads-to-calls-for-painkiller-rethink/4356816

This part pisses me off, this HAS to be illegal right?

Codeine road trips

Michael Meaney runs a pharmacy in Sheffield, a small town in north-west Tasmania, and has been trying to stop codeine road trips.

"I've had people come from as far as Smithton 150 kilometres away and Launceston 100 kilometres to the east away coming here to buy codeine-based products from my pharmacy in Sheffield," he said.

Now taking the law in to their own hands, Mr Meaney and other local pharmacists use software designed to track sales of pseudoephedrine, a key component of amphetamines.

It involves recording the license details of customers to stop codeine road trips.

"Project Stop hasn't been approved for codeine sales, but we're doing it because we think it's the lesser evil to perhaps infringe on people's personal privacy, to infringe on these privacy laws rather than allow a handful of people to do enormous damage to themselves," he said.

 

[Stato]

^ good to hear man. I hope you're doing ok

Doing fine, as i'm on home detention bail one of my conditions of bail (keeping me out of gaol) is to only take OTC substances, and only at their prescribed or recommneded dosages...

As this is prescribed it's all legal.

That said, I passed a drug test 1500mg codeine after, next day.

8mg suboxone is about right for my tolerance... I actually woke up today at 7:30AM (instead of noon), had breakfast, got dressed... ready to do housework.

My pupils are still pinned, and I'm about ready to go for my 2nd 8mg dose.

As the doctor said I can skip a dose as needed or travel between 2-8mg anytime i want, per daily dose.

I actually feel normal...

Prior to this my highest dose ever was 1900mg codeine, 20 x 2mg loperamide and 800mg dihydrocodeine (2 bottles of rikodeine). Yeah, I was smashed.

It took 6-8 months to go from 400mg to 1200mg daily

 

[Black Rabbit of Inle]

This part pisses me off, this HAS to be illegal right?

I'm not sure of the legality, but if you're getting quite a few customers coming from that far away to get codeine, you can kinda tell they don't legitimately need it (other than for WD's)

I hope they don't end up making it harder to get. Sometimes I need it for real and I don't need the extra fuckaround with going to a doctor when they won't prescribe me anything other than ibuprofen anyway (no codeine for some reason)

 

[opi8]

we think it's the lesser evil to perhaps infringe on people's personal privacy, to infringe on these privacy laws

This in particular. Privacy LAWS are there to protect our privacy. This must be a breach of those laws, surely?

 

[cassandragemini]

Yeah I'm not cool with that, one of the problems with OTC codeine products is the majority of people have never heard of a cold water extraction and just bomb a handful of pills which eventually is going to fuck their shit up. I've seen so many empty panadeine packets on park benches and on the street in areas where there are a lot of heroin/opiate addicts and from the other addicts I've talked too most have never heard of a cwe and if desperate will take 10+ pills in one go. It's actually amazing how few people know about cwe's including many pharmacists. I think this is a legitimate concern but infringing on privacy laws to stop it is not the way to go at all, if people were educated and told how to cwe it might help but i would guess that more people would use codeine if that was the case and I'd also guess that a good proportion of them wouldn't use it responsibly and it would continue to cause problems for themselves and for those of us who try to use it responsibly. It's a shitty situation and it's unlikely that what may come from a change in law will help, if they ban it it'll just make desperate people more desperate and more likely to do stupid things to get high/stop withdrawals. I've become quite friendly with the girls at my local nsp and I've been asking if they can put a pamphlet with instructions for cweing on the counter along with instructions on how to use heroin rectally. They're really cool people and want to do it, theyve put a box of oral shringes on the counter and have been telling people about using rectally (which apparently has come up against some pretty stiff resistance, most people dont like the idea of putting things up their bums) so that's something but providing instructions for cwe's is trickier and being able to do it depends on what the people running the exchange think about the idea. I don't even really know how I feel about it myself, on one hand I think it would be great harm reduction in terms of potentially stopping people taking stupid doses of para/ibu but it also might cause a lot of people to start using codeine more often and this might have some negative effects further down the track. Hearing some of the stories of what some people who use nsp's will do to get high (injecting into their necks/groin/forehead and tongue and how bad some of their hygiene and techniques are) it could potentially cause more harm than good and seeing as the law on OTC codeine could be heading for change it might increase the chances of it not going our way.

I think it's coming to a time were we need to stand up for our rights as drug users and organise some support for our causes. I can think of so many things I would like to see changed in Australian law regarding illegal and legal drugs and OST and I don't think we will see any if them happen unless we stick together and try to get our cause out there for people to hear and consider. If drug laws continue to be made by people who don't use any or many of the drugs they make laws for and have no idea about the real effects the drugs and the laws have on users and society how are the laws going to work the best of everybody? We as informed drug users really need to make our voices an opinions heard so we can help make the best decisions for everybody, or at least help make decisions that aren't for the worst.

 

[poledriver]

Codeine abuse leads to calls for painkiller rethink

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-06/codeine-abuse-leads-to-calls-for-painkiller-rethink/4356816

This part pisses me off, this HAS to be illegal right?

Video from the 7.30 report on this -

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3627173.htm

 

[poledriver]

I hope they don't end up making it harder to get. Sometimes I need it for real and I don't need the extra fuckaround with going to a doctor when they won't prescribe me anything other than ibuprofen anyway (no codeine for some reason)

Afaik, they made it harder to get a few years ago, here's some info on that -

Codeine ban will induce headaches: pharmacists

BIG changes to the way codeine tablets such as Nurofen Plus and Panadeine are sold are expected to cause a headache for pharmacists and customers.
From May 1, all combination medications containing codeine, which are used by 4 million Australians each year, will be rescheduled.
Packs containing up to 12 milligrams of codeine will be kept behind the counter and dispensed only by a pharmacist who will record the customer's details. This includes 12-tablet and 24-tablet packs of Nurofen Plus and Panadeine.
Customers will have to obtain a prescription for a 48-tablet pack or larger, leading many to stock up before so-called Codeine May Day.
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The National Drugs and Poisons Schedule Committee ordered the changes over concerns that 1 in 20,000 people abused combination analgesics containing codeine and ibuprofen, which can cause perforated gastric ulcers and kidney failure.
The Pharmacy Guild estimates that increased doctors visits could cost the health system $2 billion. ''The guild is desperate to avoid more prescriptions,'' its vice-president Kos Sclavos said. ''If every time someone has a minor headache they have to go off to the doctor, it will add enormous strain.''
As a result, most manufacturers have decided to stop making 48 packs.
Greg and Mary Walsh of Concord, who have four children, estimate they use a 12-pack of combination analgesics every week. They buy in packs of 48 because they are cheaper and ''then it's always there'' but will now have to visit a pharmacy almost every week.
''It will lead to us running out,'' Mr Walsh said. ''When it's needed, it won't be there. so you'll have to put up with the pain until it subsides or until you get around to going to the chemist.''
Paul Ta, from Day and Night Chemist in Ashfield, said pharmacists could expect an bigger workload. He said some patients would be concerned about details being recorded but drug abuse had to be stopped.
Customer details cannot be accessed by other pharmacies, allowing medication abusers to visit other shops. Mr Sclavos said that, overall, pharmacists were supportive of the changes.
Correction: Earlier versions of this story said changes to the way codeine tablets were sold would be introduced from April 1.

^ That was from 2010.

There's no register about how much sugar kids eat or how much fast, shit food they buy from maccas or kfc etc and diabetes and obesity is a huge problem. Alcohol and tobacco are drugs and they are abused and cause lots of deaths and issues within society and binge drinking etc and they don't record how much of that people buy, no register, you can go from place to place and buy as much shit as you like.

 

[Black Rabbit of Inle]

Afaik, they made it harder to get a few years ago, here's some info on that

Yeah but you can still pick up codeine without a prescription. If they change it to be a prescription only drug I won't be happy. It's shit that alcohol and tobacco are easy to get a hold of large amounts but if you need pain medication, it's becoming virtually impossible. This is from my POV and I know I don't have anything on my medical records that say I'm a drug user.

I think it's coming to a time were we need to stand up for our rights as drug users and organise some support for our causes. I can think of so many things I would like to see changed in Australian law regarding illegal and legal drugs and OST and I don't think we will see any if them happen unless we stick together and try to get our cause out there for people to hear and consider. If drug laws continue to be made by people who don't use any or many of the drugs they make laws for and have no idea about the real effects the drugs and the laws have on users and society how are the laws going to work the best of everybody? We as informed drug users really need to make our voices an opinions heard so we can help make the best decisions for everybody, or at least help make decisions that aren't for the worst.

Not to mention that we would need a drug user (who understands the harm minimization side of it) in Parliament who is willing to bring these changes to the table.

 

[poledriver]

Yeah, I hope they don't make it prescription only.. Do they record your details or ask for your licence for it atm? I've never bought it or used it before.

 

[laugh]

wasn't there something about codeine on today tonight last night? pretty heavy on the facts mrs tracy grimshaw. unbias journalism if i ever did see it...

 

[Black Rabbit of Inle]

Pole - they ask for a license and record the details, I'm pretty sure they'd have a RFID scanner (but my card is old and doesn't have the new RFID chip)