PMA chemist cooking for "personal use"

[Folley]

A drug addict who had read his father's chemistry books as a teenager downloaded information from the internet to make the deadly designer drug PMA, a court heard today.
Known by the street names "Chicken Powder" and "Chicken Yellow", the drug PMA (para-Methoxyamphetamine) can be lethal in high doses and has been blamed for a number of deaths worldwide.

Last month, Queensland police linked the drug to three deaths.
Pills containing PMA have included batches known as Louis Vuitton, Mitsubishi Turbo and Blue Transformers.

Sam Doble, 34, of Ocean Grove, pleaded guilty in the County Court today to one count of possessing substances used to manufacture PMA with the intention of trafficking, one charge of possessing pre-cursor chemicals, one count of possessing a drug of dependence, and one count of being a prohibited person possessing an unregistered Browning pump-action rifle.
Prosecutor James Fitzgerald told the court that when police raided a property in Mollison Street, Kyneton, on May 14, 2010, they found Doble sitting at his desk researching chemicals on his laptop computer.

He had a clandestine drug laboratory in his bedroom with glassware, equipment and chemicals.
An analysis of the web pages downloaded on Doble's computer revealed he had accessed 57 articles discussing illicit substances and another 38 on general chemistry.
When interviewed by police, Doble admitted he was making PMA.
Defence lawyer Lee Ristivojevic told the court Doble was manufacturing the drug for his own use.

He had been addicted to ice and amphetamines for more than 10 years and used drugs to take away his inhibitions as he was awkward and shy.
His father had an alcohol problem when he was growing up and Doble's three brothers no longer wanted to have anything to do with him because of his past drug use.
"They see him as a deadbeat, down-and-out drug addict," Ms Ristivojevic said.
She said Doble, who had turned his life around since his arrest and was now drug-free, had been trying to take a different chemical pathway to make PMA when caught by police.
Doble's father had been a chemist and had given him his chemistry books when he was a teenager.
"Chemistry is something that comes quite easily to him," Ms Ristivojevic said.
"He can remember chemical formulas and all sorts of things off the top of his head."
The plea hearing before Judge Liz Gaynor continues.

PMA first came into circulation in the early 1970s, where it was used as a substitute for LSD.
The effects of taking PMA include accelerated and irregular heartbeat, blurred vision, nausea, vomiting and hallucinations.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/c...faces-court-20121004-271ps.html#ixzz28a6iV0AU

I also thought this was a bit interesting, he was probably browsing around Bluelight or a similar site

Prosecutor James Fitzgerald told the court that when police raided a property in Mollison Street, Kyneton, on May 14, 2010, they found Doble sitting at his desk researching chemicals on his laptop computer.
He had a clandestine drug laboratory in his bedroom with glassware, equipment and chemicals.
An analysis of the web pages downloaded on Doble's computer revealed he had accessed 57 articles discussing illicit substances and another 38 on general chemistry.

I hope the bastard gets the death penalty.

 

[trip.more]

Well it would be wrong if he sold it to others as MDMA or something similar I don't think he deserves the death penalty for making it. You a fed or something? People deserve to die for doing something that can kill them? Believe it or not there are people still interested in trying this chemical even with the information out on it.

Death penalty lmao

 

[poledriver]

Thanks for posting this, altho i'm not quite sure why you changed the title of the article to 'personal use', that is what his defence lawyer claimed, as they would to try and lesser the charges, but he was charged with -

Sam Doble, 34, of Ocean Grove, pleaded guilty in the County Court today to one count of possessing substances used to manufacture PMA with the intention of trafficking, one charge of possessing pre-cursor chemicals, one count of possessing a drug of dependence, and one count of being a prohibited person possessing an unregistered Browning pump-action rifle.

The original title of the article is - 'Chicken powder' drug cook faces court

No death penalty in Aus btw, altho i'd guess that was a tongue in cheek comment, i rekon he'll only get a handful of yrs in jail, if that, depending on priors and probably lots of factors, like the judge and his defence. I'd hate to see more PMA make its way into more pills here, as it is we've had too many PMA related 'ecstasy' deaths.

Ill add it to AUSDD somewhere, lots of people there will be interested in this.

 

[sekio]

PMA is not very tough to make, it isnt unreasonable tha he could have been making it for personal use.
The "intention of trafficking" bit is probably just from the qty of material involved.

 

[amanitadine]

Death penalty? My goodness. I know people who did make PMA and PMMA for personal use, it's not implausible. But the article above was obviously written after the defense testimony! Semi-interesting substances, worth a shot, just dangerous to represent them as something else, or distribute them to the uninformed. Very easy to make, and the precursor is dead easy to get. But, speaking of easy precursors, DMMDA is just about as easy, and infinitely more interesting. It's up there with MDA and MDMA IMO. Curious how it's never been in wider circulation..

 

[23536]

How does blood vessel dilation cool the body, and is the constriction caused by these psychedelic phenethylamines the reason that hyperthermia sets in? Is there any effective antidote you can have on hand?

 

[Chesh]

How does blood vessel dilation cool the body

It's been a while but iirc it's because it causes your blood within these vessels to be closer to the surface of the skin where heat can be dissipated.

 

[Roger&Me]

I hope the bastard gets the death penalty.

And I hope you get kicked in the shin and have to hop around grabbing it and wincing

But in all seriousness, he didn't sell it to anyone as something its not, or even attempt to, so he did nothing wrong (yet? I don't know) in my book. I mean you have to be some kind of simpleton to think that it should totally verboten to simply make a certain conformation of matter. PMA is a very simple compound that a high school kid could probably make... so he may have just been fooling around and picked the easiest target.

People should be arrested for putting others in danger (such as misrepresenting dangerous compounds as recreational drugs), not doing basic chemistry. The histeria around people "making drugs" is mostly due to the general public knowing next to nothing about chemistry, and being generally chemophobic twats to begin with IMHO.

 

[Folley]

PMA is extremely more deadly than PMMA. You can take PMMA and have a semi-fun night out..... you take PMA, and you're likely to die.


and come on, his fucking lawyer is obviously just saying that to get him out of trouble. He pressed ecstasy pills that KILLED PEOPLE. You don't think he deserves the death penalty? I sure do.

People should be arrested for putting others in danger (such as misrepresenting dangerous compounds as recreational drugs), not doing basic chemistry. The histeria around people "making drugs" is mostly due to the general public knowing next to nothing about chemistry, and being generally chemophobic twats to begin with IMHO.

I don't give a shit if he just made the drug... but it's obvious he wasn't doing that. He was pressing pills that killed people.


These are just a few of the PMA pills that have been in Australia recently

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30388
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30216
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=19513
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=19052

People deserve to die for doing something that can kill them?

People who sell an extremely deadly substance as ECSTASY deserve to die, yes.





I think you guys are confused. His lawyer is lying (crazy right!??!!), this was obvious for more than "personal use".

 

[poledriver]

^ Im not sure there was any evidence he pressed any pills. Or sold any of the PMA he made, or was making, to others who might have pressed pills.

I'll re-read it to make sure, but I think the article just mentions some of the 'ecstasy' pills that have contained PMA over here in the last yr or so. They could have been imported or made in an entirely different location or part of Aus.

He wasn't caught with a pill press and he wasn't caught on selling it to other parties as far as i can ascertain from the article. But he very well might have done so, or been planning on doing so. It just doesn't say in the article (I dont think?)

 

[helium-4]

Was their pill pressing equipment on site? And how was the final product stored? I'm sure there are a few other questions that could be asked that could help reveal whether or not he was behind the PMA pressed as Ecstasy pills. Of course maybe this is partially or fully answered by the discoveries that lead the police/narcotics agents to the raid, which I'd imagine would be seen in court/used as evidence in his prosecution. If the lawyer felt he could potentially reduce the sentencing by saying it was for personal use/not distribution it is possible that there was no pill press and/or no link between him and the pill press. By the set up of his "lab" it also seems unlikely that he'd have a very connected system of distribution that could link him to any large pill pressing operation. It could be completely true that none of the PMA produced is linked to the PMA found in the pills. Like what has been discussed, PMA is a synthesis that those with no college education and time/patience to learn chemistry can be done.

Just like with DMT extractions, one may not be trying to distribute the extracted product, and with how cheap sources of DMT are, even spending a small amount of money one can end up with multiple grams+ of final product that authorities would be able to land a distribution/selling drugs charge on top of the manufacturing charge. In a lot of cases like the DMT example or maybe in this specific case, the person in question really is only using the product for themselves. When one is trying to "manufacture" drugs the amount of product produce normally isn't just enough product for a few doses (unless say your doing a mescaline extraction, where doses are 200mg+ and a extraction of say a 12-24inch san pedro cactus gives you probably 200-1200mg). I know if I got busted when I was doing DMT extractions (i know this is a synthesis, but still considered manufacturing), I'd end up with enough DMT that authorities would automatically assume I was selling, even though I never did sell it (i didn't even sell it to friends - they would have to dose DMT at my house for their first time if they want to try it).

Basically, if the guy actually was producing PMA for himself, I'd say he should have considered a different drug to synth and is a dumbass for even considering PMA as his choice. Even when used "responsibly" and knowingly, PMA can and does kill people as the line between a entactogen experience and death is so fine. However, I wouldn't say to death with him, or lock him up. If he wanted to take that risk, fine, but it needs to stay isolated to himself. Not given to friends or anyone else. If he was distributing it to people who are led to believe its MDMA or a MDMA like drug or distributing it to people to press the ecstasy tablets, especially the tablets consumed by the people who died from a PMA overdose, I could care less about what happens to him. He should be even tried for say manslaughter for the those deaths because of his involvement (murder maybe not, but if he was doing the amount research that he obviously did, it could almost be considered murder because he knew that PMA is dangerous - if you google PMA, the fact that its deadly stands out). I really don't like to see non-violent criminals get arrested and sentenced to ridiculous prison stays like drug users, but when it comes to people that sell PMA or other dangerous compounds or idiots that do retarded synthesis of methamphetamine that leads to explosions potentially injuring or killing innocent people, I don't mind.

With out knowing exactly what he was doing with the finished product, and especially if the PMA deaths were the result of his product, I can't say exactly how I feel about the guy. I wouldn't necessarily jump on people condemning him harshly because if the cops are right in that he was distributing it, then he isn't just some kid that got busted for non-violent crimes that are based on idiotic drug laws. I also wouldn't be to quick to defend any of his actions or his freedoms that should exist but dont.

either way, selling substances as another substance or a substance like so and so drug (beta-ketone phenethylamines RCs as MDMA, psychedelic phenethylamines as LSD, etc) is a terrible terrible thing. Even if say methylone was sold as MDMA, or a MDMA like drug with out explicitly saying it isn't MDMA but methylone, it is very wrong. I know methylone has the relative safety as MDMA (or potentially) and the doses aren't that far off where if one assumes it was MDMA and doses accordingly, they wouldn't end up dead or have suffered terrible effects from ODing, but it is still wrong to deceive people.

 

[atara]

I don't think we know enough about this story to determine whether the guy was misrepresenting the drug as ecstasy or not. The quantity involved would be an obvious indicator, though; the market for PMA qua PMA is nonexistent.

PMA is occasionally prepared by interested ecstasy cooks for practice with the techniques of synthesizing molly. While PMA is a dangerous drug, it has a very cheap precursor -- cheaper than dillapiol -- and very similar physical properties (solubility, boiling point etc) to safrole. Though I have always personally recommended choosing something else to start with, simply because having something like that lying around can be bad news.

 

[Folley]

OK, maybe the death penalty is a bit stiff for him (not like I said it all that seriously to begin with 8) )... but manslaughter charges should be considered, at the very least.

and lets not forget how fucking easy it is to get a pill press. A few hundred dollars and $6 in shipping and he could have been pressing tablets in a week. Maybe the press was at his friend's house? That way if either got caught, they would only have one charge instead of both manufacturing and pressing the pills for distribution.



But I mean... come on. Who the fuck would make PMA for "personal use"???? Maybe PMMA, but even that is so deadly that I can't see why anyone would want to risk the neurotoxicity.

PMA is the most lethal "recreational" drug in the world, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[helium-4]

Yeah, it seems weird that PMA was the drug chosen given that its risks/deadliness goes hand in hand with any discussion about PMA. I know I'd be way to worried about ODing or dying from consuming even smaller doses of PMA, even if I had the pure chemical weighed out. Its just to much risk for a high that isn't describe to be very pleasurable and with other drugs of the same drug classification so readily available (entactogens/empathogens like MDMA, MDA, bk-MDMA [methylone], mephedrone [though this is not the safest of drugs, but alot safer than PMA], etc.). If he can find a space to synthesis a drug, gather all the necessary chemicals needed, and do all the research/learn all the information required to safely synthesis it, he can find a legit source of a safer chemical to consume. He clearly was decently intelligent, but that doesn't mean his decisions are going to reflect that about him, especially being as young as he is.

Young adults and teenagers often take to many risks thinking nothing bad will happen to them, and this leads them often into trouble or even dead. Even if he didn't lead to any deaths of innocent people, he landed himself in jail for the next two decades atleast i'd imagine, for taking such a large risk like synthing a scheduled drug when clearly he couldn't get away with it. He could have not even taken the PMA and landed in this spot, so even with out putting yourself physically at risk, his decisions were risky enough to put him were he is now. It's a little sad to see young people who should have their whole lives ahead of them end up in his situation, especially since he seemed to have so much potential to be successful in the real world by the description of him. Now he'll rot in jail till hes old and will end up either a criminal or bager at a grocery store, neither something people should aspire to be when they grow up.

 

[trip.more]

From the sounds of things this guy just had some anethole and the things needed to complete the reactions. They try to say anyone making anything is distributing, they are able to give them harsher sentences this way. Anethole is EXTREMELY cheap and available, some chemists make PMA just to try new reaction schemes on without wasting really valuable, harder to get/make compounds such as isosafrole, 1-phenypropene, ect. as the same procedures are usually viable. PMA is not noted to be any more dangerous than PMMA from what I've read. Would really like a source for this beyond personal opinion if you can provide one Folley.

All drugs carry risks (some greater than others), if the people who consume them know this and still choose to consume them there should be no repercussions beyond that of their own actions. As an adult you have decisions to make. A lot carry life altering consequences but they are yours to make and shouldn't involve a imprisonment with rapists and murderers in my opinion.

It's fucked up that there is this type of prejudgment on this fellow in a situation where the details are based on LEO bragging about a bust.

I absolutely do not believe in people providing one chemical as another but there isn't even an indication that he was doing this.

 

[Folley]

^ I believe it's because PMA has more MAOI properties than PMMA that it's more dangerous, but I doubt there are any actual studies comparing the two.

From the wiki:

PMA has also been shown to act as a potent, reversible inhibitor of the enzyme MAO-A with no significant effects on MAO-B,[24][25] and the combination of this property and serotonin release is likely responsible for its high lethality potential.[23]

Just from looking at PMx sold as ecstasy though, when PMA pills are around they seem to be MUCH more deadly than PMMA

I absolutely do not believe in people providing one chemical as another but there isn't even an indication that he was doing this.

So it's just a major coincidence that there is such a large amount of PMA containing pills in Australia? I know that not exactly conclusive evidence, but it says something to me.

Anyone know how much he was actually caught with?

 

[poledriver]

he landed himself in jail for the next two decades atleast i'd imagine

I agree with pretty much everything you have said, besides possibly that statement, at first I thought he may get 10 years or more, then after more consideration I edited my first post (3rd from the top) to possibly a few years in jail. It really depends on lots of factors, which I included some of above, but things like priors, if there was any evidence he dealt the chemical to anyone in any form (powder or pills), or if he intended to, his defence lawyer(s), the judge. And many more legal factors. If the judge thinks it was for personal use he might only get a a hanfull of years and some of that suspended, but who knows, I hope we hear what the sentence is.

I highly doubt this guy will get anywhere near 10 yrs personally.

Just my thoughts anyway.

Also i reported on this from Indonesia today -

Hengky was arrested in Surabaya in May 2006 on suspicion of involvement in the large-scale production and distribution of ecstasy pills. He was found guilty of the charges and should have faced the death sentence but the court handed down a 15-year term instead on the grounds of human rights.

15 years from a place that has insane drug laws, for large scale production and distribution of ecstasy pills. Here in Aus (im not sure where you are from) our courts are far more lenient on drug crimes than Indo.

It's all speculation tho, who knows what he will get.

 

[amanitadine]

Lot of hysteria above, and baseless speculation. I see no mentions of pill presses, and no, you can't get one for a couple hundred bucks and six dollars shipping! Little more than that . nothing wrong with experimenting in the home. Christ, there was a handful of dudes at the hive playing with PMA/PMMA, it is not some deadly on contact poison. I had some good experiences with it, but the hangover was awful. From what I remember PMA is about 4 times as toxic as MDMA, but I could be off.

As far as sentences, who knows. Extenuating circumstances, priors, etc. I don't know what Australia's sentencing is like. But I know people in the US who got busted for manufacturing MDMA and got time served and some probation. I also know guys who got a few years. But for the most part, without priors, manufacturing sentences were always quite a bit less than everyone was expecting. Funny. I'm walking around so I can't complain

 

[helium-4]

Hmm, I am probably off about the sentencing, or I know I'm off about it. I for one don't know how sentencing is for people in Australia for manufacturing drugs, and two was just pulling large number out because of some of the sentencing times for those who I can actually kinda remember (like pickards LSD bust though I do realize there is a pretty huge difference in scenarios here). I may also be thinking about how with certain drugs there are some large maximum sentencing times for the manufacture of them. Anyway, even if its a decade, that is pretty significant amount of time even if its not that large in terms of potential prison sentences. I'm sure some of the other charges like having an unregistered shot gun may increase the time a bit (don't know how much it could add) from someone else caught in with a very similar situation. No matter what, it is sad how intense the drug laws are for crimes that don't harm anyone in general (not saying there isn't worse like Indonesia or bali). To many sexual and violent criminals are sentenced so lightly compared to someone possessing even a relatively small amount of a drug, it really doesn't make any sense to me (it just shows where some of the fear is in the governments).

 

[Folley]

I see no mentions of pill presses, and no, you can't get one for a couple hundred bucks and six dollars shipping! Little more than that .

Want to bet lol? The cheapest one I can find is $500, and that's a professional grade one. I know for a fact that you can get single punch, crank operated tablet presses for much cheaper than that as well...


Hell, you can order them straight off eBay