• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
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How we rolled in the 90s when the pills were super strong

I don't think so, I would guess it has something to do with the fact that mints are tiny ass pills with next to no filler.
as for crystallization, I really don't see what that's going to do.. it could form different LOOKING crystals,

If your theory is true why would the size of the pill make a difference and the size of a crystal not make a difference?

Why if small pill and less filler is the key. How come MDMA crystal takes longer to come up 45mins-hour if your theory were correct the MDMA crystal would come up quicker because it has no filler or binder at all.


and actually Futura, I know for a fact that they dissolve the sample before testing it in the GC/MS. It's dissolved into a liquid and shot through a tube or something like that, the spikes that occur from this will tell you what the chemical is...

5.2.4.2 Gas Chromatography
Gas chromatography (GC) is a documentable chromatography form that can be used in lieu of TLC. It is not a specific confirmatory test for controlled substances. However, dual-column techniques and the evaluation of alkaloid
peak patterns can be used for identification purposes. The GC is also used as a separation device for confirmatory examinations, such as MS and Fourier transform IR spectroscopy (FTIR). The GC separates compounds by their size, shape, and reactivity with the chemical coating of the GC column, in a manner similar to rocks flowing down a river. The carrier gas acts as the water, and the column coating acts as the riverbed. The small molecules travel through the chromatographic column more rapidly than larger molecules. Their shapes and their reactivities with the column’s coating separate molecules of the same size.

Chromatograms from GCs are used to identify unknowns based on the retention time or relative retention time of a peak under certain operating conditions. The retention time (Rt) is the time it takes a compound to travel from the injection port of the GC to the detector. The relative retention time (RRt) is the ratio of the retention time of the substance to the retention time of an internal standard placed into the sample.

5.2.4.3 Mass Spectroscopy
Mass spectroscopy (MS) is the workhorse instrument used by the forensic chemist. It uses the pattern of molecular pieces (ions) produced when a molecule breaks apart after it is exposed to a beam of electrons as a means of identification. The resulting characteristic pattern is called the mass spectrum. It is considered one of a compound’s chemical fingerprints. The mass spectrometer exposes the compound under analysis to a beam of high-energy electrons that shatters the molecules. The mass spectrometer then sorts and counts the resulting pieces (ions) and produces a pattern, the mass spectrum. When the energy of the electron beam remains constant, the molecule will produce the same mass spectrum, which is considered one of the compound’s chemical fingerprints.

Source - Forensic Investigation of Clandestine Laboratories Donnell R. Christian


I cant figure out if GC/MS is an all in one type of test or two independant tests.

I am no GC/MS expert but looks to me like a solution isnt creaated in either test. I only make an educated guess.

I know one thing its not a simple piece of equipment. You have to be well trained to get decent and accurate results.

One thought is we have always assumed the likes of ecstasydata.org to be accurate. Maybe some of those impurities might be user errors?

I would guess that the spike for MDMA HCL is the one which all others are judged against.

I think you work the ratios out using the peak heights as indication of relative strength of a particular compound.

Different compounds produce alternative spikes.

This document we are looking at has the bit about salts in it

The mass spectrometer generally cannot distinguish between the salt and freebase form of a drug. The salt portion of the compound is generally outside the detection range of the MS. The detector only “sees” the freebase portion of the compound.

as for crystallization, I really don't see what that's going to do.. it could form different LOOKING crystals, but if it's 100% pure racemic MDMA HCL it's going to be the same as any other 100% pure racemic MDMA HCL. The differences that we all notice are due to impurities.. and unless they are adding adulterants during this process I don't see how any change in the product is going to come from that process, but I don't know too much about it, admittedly.

I have added another book to the collection "Handbook of Industrial Crystalization" Everything you need to know when crystalizing MDMA on an industrial scale lol.

Like with GC/MS its another highly complex topic. An MDMA crystal can varie in size, can contain a percentage of impurity, contain a percentage of H20, contain a percentage of O2. In some circumstances you can crystalize isomers, you can even add adulterant. Do you think none of these factors will have any affect on the MDMA high?
 
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Hello Severely

Here are some of the document references in this thread.

Forensic report where they discover a Phosphate based MDMA pill.

http://www.4shared.com/folder/i3RtojPn/Tablets.html

Forensic Investigations and Analysis

http://www.4shared.com/folder/5vRHmMmD/Forensics.html

Crystalization

http://www.4shared.com/folder/yLQZZiXg/Crystalization.html

Organic Chemistry

http://www.4shared.com/folder/3FnGm_lT/Chemistry.html


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@ Folley - Racemic mixture of MDMA as we know it contains d-3,4-MDMA and l-3,4-MDMA. But those are only the enantiomers of 3,4-MDMA.

What about 2,3-MDMA? Has GC/MS ever found 2,3-MDMA in a sample? I am curious...

Isn't that the positional isomer or something? I have no fucking clue about those lol.. but no, I don't think it's been found in any large scale press.


1-(1,3-Benzodioxol-4-yl)-N-methylpropan-2-amine (2,3-MDMA) has like half the potency at the SERT... it almost looks like a MDMA precursor or something, I'm sure a few steps can be taken to make it into 3,4-MDMA. It also looks a lot more similar to 6-APB and other MDA analogues




You still only have a few scattered reports of this happening though Futura... everything I have ever seen about these pills says they are MDMA HCL... hell you can see the crystals in the Defqon, they look like a normal HCL salt
 
You still only have a few scattered reports of this happening though Futura... everything I have ever seen about these pills says they are MDMA HCL...

Yes true. It happens to what scale is the question. HCL is an assumption everyone makes. Thats the whole point really.

I think this might be because its tricky and hassle to measure.

Shame because without this info the amount of HCL out there is a bit speculative.

I still reckon the Mint is a salt related issue.

The chemists I speak with like the HCL salt because its stable and doesnt absorb water from the air.

I dont know how the Phosphate or Acetates as MDMA crystal would compare.

That report refers to a pill. I assume once the filler and binder is added the hydroscopic nature of the salt is less of an issue.

hell you can see the crystals in the Defqon, they look like a normal HCL salt

How do see an HCL crystal? Why is not an acetate or phosphate crystal? Again its an assumption HCL but we dont know for sure.
 
How do see an HCL crystal? Why is not an acetate or phosphate crystal? Again its an assumption HCL but we dont know for sure.
i would tend to ask the same question. i'd also be inclined to be extremely skeptical of anybody who tried to tell me they can tell the difference between the hydrochloride salt and the phosphate salt simply by looking at it. i would take any claim like that, well, with a pinch of salt :)
The chemists I speak with like the HCL salt because its stable and doesnt absorb water from the air.
hydrochloric acid is cheaper and more widely available than phosphoric acid. i expect that's a factor too.

alasdair
 
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I finally managed to get the image working lol all this talk about crystallization.

35lc68n.jpg
 
Interesting pick snay. Good job nice to see some pics on here. Just out of interest how do you get a pic to display like that is it linked to another website?

The crystals you have there looks like a technique I have been reading about called 'fused' crystals.

because MDMA is injested in salt form and is Racemic you cant get that big crystals to form. There is a limit to how big they can become. Dont ask me why but thats what all the cooks say. If you seperate the isomers you can then make big crystals.

The fusing is done by heating the crystals to a specific temp and compressing. They also do this for smuggling purposes also.

Crystal meth unlike MDMA can be formed into large shard crystals.

******************************************************

Got another observation to throw in the mix here. I was reading this journal and picked up on this theory.

Stereospecific Analysis and Enantiomeric Disposition of MDMA in humans.pdf

http://www.4shared.com/folder/s3K-05dx/MDMA_BZP_Research.html

MDMA is a chiral compound used as a racemate, and an examination of the pharmacological activity of the individual enantiomers indicates that the (+)-S-enantiomer is more active in terms of “the degree and the disruptiveness of the induced intoxication” (12) than the (−)-R-enantiomer. Studies in animals have indicated that the drug also undergoes stereoselective disposition, with the (+)-S-enantiomer having a shorter half-life than the (−)-R-enantiomer in the rat

It appears the body itself does an element of isomer seperation. Or at least in the metabolism of the isomers.

Assuming we are like rats. Appears that you clear the S isomer quicker. Remaining fucked on the R isomer for longer.

Would this explain why sometimes on a comedown things get a bit trippy?
 
If you seperate the isomers you can then make big crystals.

Uhh... I'm not so sure about that.

Crystal meth unlike MDMA can be formed into large shard crystals.

A lot of meth (at least the stuff made by the Cartels) is re-rocked into larger crystals with MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane), a lot more crystal MDMA has been cut with MSM recently as well..

http://www.ecstasydata.org/results.php?start=0&search_field=all&s=Methylsulfonylmethane

MDMA with MSM
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2512

Meth with MSM
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2543



Would this explain why sometimes on a comedown things get a bit trippy?

IDK, I don't really think so, that's supposed to be caused by metabolization of MDMA into MDA...
 
Uhm 2 pills still do that to me george... I don't know where you guys are from but I see people WAY worse then in that video... If some people actually took the time and effort to find some quality raves rather then the commercialized "yeah skrillex w00t" american crapfests THEN i'd maybe blame the pills...

Hey, now we all come from different times. I'm a modern day raver and i can say I'd take a "commercialized "yeah skrillex w00t" american crapfest" than the cringe worthy video I just watched up top. Or at least the girls look better...

But it is true, that the drugs have certainly changed. And the super floored people are usually up on some stuff they dont even know about, pipes who knows. And back in the 90's, it wasn't even an issue. Not like people are dumber now or less careful, just back then I'm sure you didn't have to worry about adulterants like you do now.
 
So Futura you are saying they combine little crystals together to form bigger ones? I just ordered a test kit from Dancesafe. So what can people make these crystals out of if they aren't really mdma sometimes? Thanks!
 
Only around 7%the is converted, IIRC

>20mg MDA might not usually be active by itself, but with a hefty dose of MDA it's likely to activate the... 5-HTa I want to say..?

Whichever receptor that MDMA usually does not activate but that MDA does, I'm too fucked up to bother to find it


^ MSM is the most common cut used in methyl-amines like meth and MDMA. You can recrystallize the MSM into the meth/MDMA because they are similar looking chemicals with similar boiling/melting points


Tyk0V.jpg
 
IDK, I don't really think so, that's supposed to be caused by metabolization of MDMA into MDA...

Only around 7%the is converted, IIRC

I think a lot of this is quite an unknown. Main reason is because the majority of this research is done on animals.

Seems the P450 Enzymes are primarily responsible for these actions.

It is N-Dealkylation that appears to perform the task of MDMA > MDA

"N-Dealkylation is a commonly observed metabolic reaction for drugs containing secondary and tertiary amines"

I will keep adding more papers as I find them. Differential roles of phase 1 and phase 2 enzymes is a recommended read on the topic.

http://www.4shared.com/folder/s3K-05dx/MDMA_BZP_Research.html


*************************************************************************

My mind was challenged by this comment from Severely

@ Folley - Racemic mixture of MDMA as we know it contains d-3,4-MDMA and l-3,4-MDMA. But those are only the enantiomers of 3,4-MDMA.

What about 2,3-MDMA? Has GC/MS ever found 2,3-MDMA in a sample? I am curious...

Definition of MDMA Wikepedia

MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine) is an entactogenic drug of the phenethylamine and amphetamine classes of drugs.

Phenylethylamine or phenethylamine (PEA) is a natural monoamine alkaloid, a trace amine, and also the name of a class of chemicals with many members well known for psychoactive drug and stimulant effects.


I then referred to Shulgins book PIHKAL located here

http://www.4shared.com/folder/nM4gT-vL/General_Synthesis.html

Shulgin writes MDMA slightly different to wikepedia like this

MDMA N-Methyl-3,4-methylenedioxy-A

The A is his own reference to either mean Amphetamine or Phenethylamine. Interesting to see Shulgin classes it as an Amphetamine not a Phenethylamine.

Also the name he uses is very different to Wikepedia.

I have had a shift few a couple of organic chem books which you can fine here including a copy of the Merke Index.

http://www.4shared.com/folder/3FnGm_lT/Chemistry.html

I am going to check how Merke refers to MDMA that is the chemistry bible so theoretically what that sais is gospel.

However, despite all this research I cannot figure out what the 3 & 4 means or why Shulgin refers to MDMA as having a different name.

Please can someone clarify???

*****************************************************************************

back on topic

hydrochloric acid is cheaper and more widely available than phosphoric acid. i expect that's a factor too.

alasdair

Totally agree with this. Good point. The available precursor acids will of course dictate to an extent what salts are made.

Snowday But it is true, that the drugs have certainly changed. And the super floored people are usually up on some stuff they dont even know about, pipes who knows. And back in the 90's, it wasn't even an issue. Not like people are dumber now or less careful, just back then I'm sure you didn't have to worry about adulterants like you do now.

Scuse the English but Pipes are a fucking bitch. My life has been crippled by the MDMA/BZP drug>drug synergy that happens to a rare few. Had an 11 month comedown now and counting. I think now if you utilise test kits and source well the availablity is actually better. The problem is the availability is so good that theres also a lot of junk out there. Adulterants were in pills back then but the availability of adulterant seemed to be a lot more limited. MDA, MDEA, Amphet were all okay when I had them in some of the 90s coctails.

So Futura you are saying they combine little crystals together to form bigger ones? I just ordered a test kit from Dancesafe. So what can people make these crystals out of if they aren't really mdma sometimes? Thanks!

Yes exactly right. The salts are fused with heat and compression to make larger chunks. I think the motice is mainly smuggling ease driven but the larger pieces have more appeal as people assume large chunk = good. The crystalization is ongoing research for me but as I currently see it MDMA Racemic can only form a certain sized crystal. To make shards like with Meth you have to seperate the isomers.

It is unusual for a dealer to break MDMA back to freebase and recrystalize with adulterants. It is more common for them to cut the crystals with other inert crystals.

^ MSM is the most common cut used in methyl-amines like meth and MDMA. You can recrystallize the MSM into the meth/MDMA because they are similar looking chemicals with similar boiling/melting points

what compound is MSM folley?
 
Folley, you're thinking of the 5HT-2a receptor, the agonism of which is associated with the classical psychedelics and MDA but not MDMA. It seems that any N-substitution on a phen kills any psychedelic activity.
It is N-Dealkylation that appears to perform the task of MDMA > MDA
Well yeah, MDMA is MDA with an N-alkyl group, so naturally that transformation is an N-dealkylation.
The A is his own reference to either mean Amphetamine or Phenethylamine. Interesting to see Shulgin classes it as an Amphetamine not a Phenethylamine.
Amphetamine is a complex clip of alpha-methylphenethylamine, the amphetamines are just the phenethylamines that have a methyl group at the alpha position.
28iq0ao.png

The first two are relevant. As you can see, the amphetamines are a subset of the phenethylamines, so any member of the former set is necessarily also a member of the latter.
However, despite all this research I cannot figure out what the 3 & 4 means or why Shulgin refers to MDMA as having a different name.
In chemistry, it is much more important that each name refers to a unique chemical than that each chemical has a unique name. 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine means exactly the same thing as N-Methyl-3,4-methylenedioxy-A (where the A stands for amphetamine), the order the substituents are named in doesn't matter. You could call it other things, like 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,a-dimethylphenethylamine, it's confusing if you're not au fait with it but persevere and it will come naturally. The numbers refer to the positions of the substituents on the ring, relative to the ethylamine chain, which takes priority and so is numbered 1. So, the position next to the ethylamine chain is 2 (or 6), the position two carbon atoms away from the ethylamine chain is 3 (or 5), and the position opposite the chain is the 4 position. So, in the image I posted, the bottom structure is mephedrone, 4-methylmethcathinone, and the methyl group is opposite the other substituent on the aromatic ring. In MDMA, the methylenedioxy group bridges two adjacent carbon atoms, 3 and 4, or the position opposite the chain and the one next to it. So, 2,3-MDMA is what is called a structural isomer of 3,4-MDMA, with the structure differing only in the placement of functional groups. In this molecule, the methylenedioxy bridge is on the carbons 2 and 3. This is getting confusing, so I'll post an image (3,4-MDMA is the first structure, 2,3-MDMA the second):
22iblk.png

Now, you might be thinking that you could make 4,5-MDMA, the bottom structure, and have another new drug. This chemical is in fact the same as 3,4-MDMA, the benzene ring can be rotated 180 degrees about the ethylamine chain (this is possible, carbon atoms that share a single bond can rotate relative to one another) and the two structures are seen to be equivalent. Hope this helps.
 
what compound is MSM folley?

Methylsulfonylmethane, it's inactive, but it's easy as hell to get and is a great imposer... Especially for methamphetamine smokers, it will actually melt right down with the meth. It's a real bitch to try and separate it out


Folley, you're thinking of the 5HT-2a receptor

Knew it was something like that lol, was too fucked to bother to look it up though.

^ All that shit is where you lose me lmao... I'm gonna need a few courses in organic chemistry before I'll fully understand that
 
What Folley??! How could you not get all that? Shit, my 5 year old daughter just saw that and broke it down further in crayon. ppppphhhhh
 
Haha blah ur funny I'm reading this shit and I'm like HUH? I bet 90% of the people talking in this thread don't know 99% of the shit they're talking bout! Its easy to copy and paste

Sorry continue chemistry class please.....
 
***slowly raises hand***

I'm probably the only one on this thread who knows complete fuck-all about the subject matter at hand. Chemistry? It's for the birds...

Give Blah pill + Blah test pill + Blah see desired shiny colors = Blah eat and feel warm and fuzzy.

(B + p2) + (B + MMS(r)) + (B + B/B/Bl). = (B + :D) ....cubed

There's the extent of my chemistry. CLASS DISMISSED!!
 
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***slowly raises hand***

I'm probably the only one on this thread who knows complete fuck-all about the subject matter at hand. Chemistry? It's for the birds...

Give Blah pill + Blah test pill + Blah see desired shiny colors = Blah eat and feel warm and fuzzy.
(B + p2) + (B + MMS(r)) + (B + B/B/Bl). = (B + :D) ....cubed

There's the extent of my chemistry. CLASS DISMISSED!!


I could swear the cookie monster says something similar no? Lol
 
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