How we rolled in the 90s when the pills were super strong

[oldskoolroller]

That is what the 90`s were about. A puddle of love,and nonstop dancing. Ah memories.

 

[futura2012]

Still, we are no closer to the difference between 90-95 pills and current pills. I definitely believe there is more amphet in them. Last night I took 2.5 green squares, that is probably around 300mg MDMA. Still, it did not reach the peaks of an early 90s 1/2 Dove. Still, today I went to work and it was fine, so sure the high is not as high but the comedown is nothing in comparison.

No closer? I thought we had progressed a bit mark LOL.

300mG MDMA vs 1/2 dove. Dove was better. I think I would have to assume the dove was not just MDMA.

Meth/amphetamine potentiates MDMA so much it's not even funny.

What was the dose of the speed in the combo pills? Like 10-15mg is really more than enough to add that energy to your roll

The speed always made me a bit sick so i tended not to like it but in low doses like this the effect can be good. Interesting to hear how your experiments are going. Seems the speed was clearly a big influence in those oldskool pills. Although when you look at all those old reports the main contents were MDMA and MDEA. Less speed less MDA.

Think about it. It might seem strange to just put a little bit of meth in a pill instead of just selling it separate. However, MDMA is about as addictive as caffeine. If you even put a little bit of meth, it's just so fiendish that you'd end up using and buying much more.

I wouldnt say its fiendish in a pill like this. I think the addiction is more caused when you smoke it and take on a regular basis.

I think the inactive ingredients might play a bigger role than you all think. Real pharmaceutical tablet manufacturing is a science unto itself. Sometimes changing the formula for a pill can have a dramatic effect on absorbtion.

I was reading that certain sugars can add to the absorption speeds so you have a point.

Does the filler play a big influence on the high of an Ecstasy Pill? Persoanlly I dont think it would but its a possibility.

I've noticed that with pharmaceutical generic pills, although there seems to be exactly the amount stated, sometimes the absorption seems to be anywhere from about 20minutes slower or faster. IIRC the FDA requires that the absorption must be about 85% like the brand name. I can only imagine the variance in street pills, taken various ROAs.

Interesting observation. Do you have the FDA statement that declares this requirement. I would be interested to see how they word it. How would they test for absorption speeds to make the ruling?

It could be argued that if the pills or pure crystals are crushed up or dissolved it'd be the best. However, other inactives may effect the ph, act as surfactants, aid or hinder absorption, break up easily or difficultly, etc. Also particle size, pressure of the press, mixing method, etc. can have an effect.

I am not so convinced about this theory. Others on here are.

Why is MDMA powder 45-1hr come up. Un pressed no filler binder etc.

Then a mint however has 20 minute come up and very rapid roll.

I reckon this is chemistry related not press, filler, particle size, ph, mixing.

The salt can also play a role. I have wondered what the saccharate, hydrobromide, pamonate, aspartate, adipate, and resinate of MDMA would be like. Or a soft gel, that would stand out; has one been made or found? Fuck that be cool if there was a pill like Valium or Klonopin with a shaped hole; Bet the candy kids would love it.

I think your salt descriptions are a little off but yes I beleive salt does play a big influence.

A soft gel to me would be nasty. Totally unecessary. It kind of reminds me of Bart Simpson Pills, Transformers all that kind of thing.

It does lead me onto my next bit of research however which shows what MDMA tartrate looks like. It has a tendency to be Hygroscopic so attracts water. This might be the gel you were looking for LOL.

Please visit here:

http://www.4shared.com/folder/DL9zJh8Y/MDMA_Synthesis.html

SELECT - COOKING MDMA CHIT CHAT.rtf

Its a little file I put together of relevant chat involving topics such as isomers, salts and crystals. Scroll to the bottom to see the MDMA Tartrate. With certain methods when you produce tartrates you can produce isolated isomers also. Not sure if this batch is isolated. The crystal on the scale looks unusual. Not so sure if I fancie the gooey MDMA tartrate however. I bet that stuff would take your head off!!

Interesting thing I read in the UN World Drug Report 2012 is that X cooks have moved away from using MDP2P and are now using something else. Not sure what, but it might have different impurities.

I would be interested to see this report or article. Please provide sources if possible when quoting journals etc. As I understand it MD-P2P is necessary prior to the stage of MDMA regardless of which precursor you start with ie safrole, isosafrole, piperonal etc.

Strikes book Total Synthesis II discusses essential oils in the back of the book. I think he is referring to the making of other drugs but maybe other essentials can be used for MDMA I dont know. Love Drugs by Otto Snow I havent read yet but I am sure that will reveal further info.

Maybe some are just pros who know exactly what they're doing and take pride in their work, the preparation and tableting. Others are just cooks following a recipe and have a pill press. I would guess that there's more of the latter now, strictly for the $.

Pill presses are so simple to buy these days and they are relatively cheap. At the blink of an eye you could be making your own Garfields and Bart Simpsons LOL.

That is what the 90`s were about. A puddle of love,and nonstop dancing. Ah memories.

According to this younger crew we have no memory. Hence why pills in the 90s were so shit... or so they say

 

[Folley]

MDMA is about as addictive as caffeine. .

I seriously disagree with this... MDMA is very mentally addictive for many people in the same way methamphetamine is addictive. Most people just don't consider themselves addicts because they use once or twice a week, not every day.


and I for one know that back in my abusing days whenever I found a clean bean I would spend all mt money on them because they were becoming so rare!

 

[severely etarded]

I wouldnt say its fiendish in a pill like this. I think the addiction is more caused when you smoke it and take on a regular basis.

Perhaps long-term addiction. But I can personally tell you, if I take a couple adderall, when they wear off, my mind/body craves more. It is this craving from amphetamines that causes binge use, which leads to addiction, regardless of ROA

 

[futura2012]

I wouldnt say its fiendish in a pill like this. I think the addiction is more caused when you smoke it and take on a regular basis.

Perhaps long-term addiction. But I can personally tell you, if I take a couple adderall, when they wear off, my mind/body craves more. It is this craving from amphetamines that causes binge use, which leads to addiction, regardless of ROA

Thats a fair point Severely I get what your saying.

Its werid with amphetamine because you could argue in some ways its good as you need to take less MDMA but in other ways its bad because of the point you make.

On the topic of 90s pills you could say the 90s adulterated pills are worse instead of the purer modern pills.

 

[THC2LSD]

I wouldnt say its fiendish in a pill like this. I think the addiction is more caused when you smoke it and take on a regular basis.

Meth is addictive regardless of the ROA. I'd say it goes like IV, smoked fast(hot rail), IM, Smoked the regular way, rectally, snorted, and then orally in terms of addictiveness. It's still very addictive PO. Also you can feel compelled to abuse amphetamines without being addicted, regardless of the ROA. I find that after taking more than 60mg of dextroamphetamine(highest therapeutic dose) I start popping them like candy. Probably why the FDA set it at 60mg.

Interesting observation. Do you have the FDA statement that declares this requirement. I would be interested to see how they word it. How would they test for absorption speeds to make the ruling?

I was going by memory. Could have sworn that I read that it must have the stated dose and have close bioavailability, but some clinically insignificant variations are expected. I find that the differences aren't that significant to warrant the much high price of brand names.I 8( when people say this brand sucks when the take it by the intended ROA. Shit I've noticed differences between different pills of the same brand!

There's a whole lot of rules with generic drugs that varies depending on a whole bunch of shit. With some drugs it's stricter than others.

A soft gel to me would be nasty. Totally unecessary. It kind of reminds me of Bart Simpson Pills, Transformers all that kind of thing.

You do know I was talking about a liquid filled capsules and not some slime? Don't see how that would be bad if taken orally.

With certain methods when you produce tartrates you can produce isolated isomers also.

Technically, your not producing the isomer, your resolving it. One isomer crystallizes, other one doesn't.

I can't see someone making racemic MDMA and just throwing out the R isomer. Shulgin and some others said the racemic is better than the active S isomer alone. I do think someone on here tried S-MDMA and liked it. Never heard of the pure isomer being seized, though I'm sure it's happened somewhere. Only way I could see resolving being worth it would be to resolve R,S-MDA to R-MDA, then make S-MDMA from S-MDA.

I would be interested to see this report or article. Please provide sources if possible when quoting journals etc.

I said the source in my post,the 2012 UN World Drug report

In 2010, the European market also saw the emergence of the non-controlled glycidate derivative 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (3,4-MDP-2-P, the precursor used in the illicit manufacture of MDMA.

Page 57. I think the glycidate is the intermediate between isosafrole and MDP2P in the normal method of preparation. Also interesting is the quick/volcano method for meth. Done in 10 minutes. Wonder what it is? I don't think it's shake and bake.

Recent trends indicate the the market for "ecstasy" is recovering, but without the re-emergence of 3,4-MDP-2-P as main precursor. Instead, laboratory operators have started using substitute chemicals to manufacture MDMA.

Page 80.I suppose they could mean that they're making MDP2P instead of buy it, but I think they might mean they're using something else.

As I understand it MD-P2P is necessary prior to the stage of MDMA regardless of which precursor you start with ie safrole, isosafrole, piperonal etc.

The original Merck patent made it directly from sassafras oil, to bromosafrole, to direct alkylation. There's a few methods that don't use MDP2P.

I seriously disagree with this... MDMA is very mentally addictive for many people in the same way methamphetamine is addictive. Most people just don't consider themselves addicts because they use once or twice a week, not every day.

I not trying to deny or downplay MDMA addiction, but IMHO it's nowhere near as addictive as meth. 2 times a week is not an addiction IMO. I mean caffeine and weed are VERY mentally addicting to some, would you say they're as bad as meth? Not that addiction to MDMA would be as benign as those two. I've seen people clunk all their shit and steal for meth, but not for MDMA. How many etards are there on the streets compared to alcoholics and other drug addicts?

 

[mark881]

Well MDMA effects lessen greatly - if you do 3 days in a row, you're getting no effect. That is different to other drugs like weed, booze, coke where the effect lessens but is still there.

 

[ThatOn3Guy]

Well MDMA effects lessen greatly - if you do 3 days in a row, you're getting no effect. That is different to other drugs like weed, booze, coke where the effect lessens but is still there.

I disagree with that. While the effects do seem to lessen in a way, with consecutive use, in my experience it's really only the duration. In fact when I rolled three consecutive days in a row, it seemed as if I actually rolled harder the second and third days, although the duration was reduced a bit.

**Please do not consume MDMA multiple days in a row or redose. It is extremely damaging and I do not recommend it at all.**

 

[futura2012]

Meth is addictive regardless of the ROA. I'd say it goes like IV, smoked fast(hot rail), IM, Smoked the regular way, rectally, snorted, and then orally in terms of addictiveness. It's still very addictive PO. Also you can feel compelled to abuse amphetamines without being addicted, regardless of the ROA. I find that after taking more than 60mg of dextroamphetamine(highest therapeutic dose) I start popping them like candy. Probably why the FDA set it at 60mg.

A 20mG dose of meth in a pill I dont think is a significant addiction issue. Please can we leave this as addiction is off topic.

I was going by memory. Could have sworn that I read that it must have the stated dose and have close bioavailability, but some clinically insignificant variations are expected. I find that the differences aren't that significant to warrant the much high price of brand names.I when people say this brand sucks when the take it by the intended ROA. Shit I've noticed differences between different pills of the same brand!

There's a whole lot of rules with generic drugs that varies depending on a whole bunch of shit. With some drugs it's stricter than others.

With a reference source would be useful otherwise speculation.

You do know I was talking about a liquid filled capsules and not some slime? Don't see how that would be bad if taken orally.

Salt crystal or simple pill is sufficient for me. The plain white mint pill is a great example. Nothing novel just well made MDMA. Anything above and beyond this in my opinion is 'Novelty'.

A Liquid Capsule, Shaped Tablet, Giant Tablet, Glitter Tablet, Coloured Speckled Tablet etc etc is not a requirement for a good E trip. That was the point I was making. A bart simpson head pill is not necessarily bad its just not necessary. "Novelty" drugs usually become necessary to discuise the fact they are bunk.

Technically, your not producing the isomer, your resolving it. One isomer crystallizes, other one doesn't.

I dont know how this is forwarding our discussion. Since you ask isolating or resolving in the context of the sentance it means the same thing.

I can't see someone making racemic MDMA and just throwing out the R isomer. Shulgin and some others said the racemic is better than the active S isomer alone. I do think someone on here tried S-MDMA and liked it. Never heard of the pure isomer being seized, though I'm sure it's happened somewhere. Only way I could see resolving being worth it would be to resolve R,S-MDA to R-MDA, then make S-MDMA from S-MDA.

As I understand it MDA > MDMA is a poor choice of route. It produces low yields and if you have MDA most labs would leave it at that. It would seem most plausable to seperate the isomers from MDMA but as to excatly how much hassle this and how practical this is. A chemist such as phase_dancer or Vader could answer this issue.

I would be interested to see this report or article. Please provide sources if possible when quoting journals etc.

I said the source in my post,the 2012 UN World Drug report

No source was provided on your last post. I was very polite and I did say please.

In 2010, the European market also saw the emergence of the non-controlled glycidate derivative 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (3,4-MDP-2-P, the precursor used in the illicit manufacture of MDMA.

I would question the accuracy of this. MD-P2P has been a watched chemical since way back.

Also interesting is the quick/volcano method for meth. Done in 10 minutes. Wonder what it is? I don't think it's shake and bake.

From briefly reading about it looks like it requires Red Phospourous an Iodene. Might be tricky to source. Shake and Bake is all OTC hence why its so desirable and every tweaker is doing it.

Recent trends indicate the the market for "ecstasy" is recovering, but without the re-emergence of 3,4-MDP-2-P as main precursor. Instead, laboratory operators have started using substitute chemicals to manufacture MDMA.

I suppose they could mean that they're making MDP2P instead of buy it, but I think they might mean they're using something else.

Again I would question the acuracy of this UN source. Lab operators have always used substitute precursors to make MD-P2P. MD-P2P would be illegal in all countries. If in a country it were not legal the States and Australia would be all over it. The key ingredient is Sasafras Oil>Safrole. From safrole you normally go via MD-P2P to get to MDMA.

The original Merck patent made it directly from sassafras oil, to bromosafrole, to direct alkylation. There's a few methods that don't use MDP2P.

Do you have a reference source of the Merck patent? I am surprised to hear a patent would contain a method on how to synthesise the patent.

MD-P2P is the simplest precursor to MDMA. The bromosafrole route is mentioned in Festers book but by all accounts seems a novel and unlikely occurance in practical clan techniques.

http://www.4shared.com/folder/vd_ikDMm/Meth_Synthesis.html

I not trying to deny or downplay MDMA addiction, but IMHO it's nowhere near as addictive as meth. 2 times a week is not an addiction IMO. I mean caffeine and weed are VERY mentally addicting to some, would you say they're as bad as meth? Not that addiction to MDMA would be as benign as those two. I've seen people clunk all their shit and steal for meth, but not for MDMA. How many etards are there on the streets compared to alcoholics and other drug addicts?

Please can we drop the addiction discussion it is off topic.

 

[futura2012]

So ... back on topic

The sticky gooo MDMA you sometimes encounter is usually caused by a different salt type.

I have been reading more about MDMA salts. The different acid salts have a different molecular mass. Ie the Sulphuric Acid Molecule is heavier than the Hydrochloric Acid molecule. This is a big reason why salts have different effects.

I also read that some of the other salts tend to absorb water hence the gooo.

MDMA Tartrate (Gooey MDMA)

MDMA Tartrate Crystal (Look at the different crystal formation)

Fused MDMA HCL

Dirty Brown Fused Molly Salts

Q Dance - AKA Defqon Lab, Elephants, Canada Flag, Green Lacoste

Triforce - AKA Speaker Lab (Note the White Crystal embedded in the pill)

Probably the whole cause of the 90s Pill myth. Bunk Pills now freely available

90s White Dove with oldskool 90s 5 pence

90s girls on half a white dove

Dutch Super Pills Bomb 250, Speaker, Defqon, Decibel

 

[avcpl]

Shulgin and some others said the racemic is better than the active S isomer alone.

Here is the quote and source:

"What was unexpected was that neither isomer gave the magic of the racemic MDMA. It was almost as if both the separate pharmacological components needed to be present to experience the unusual properties of this drug."

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/isomers.htm

 

[futura2012]

Hello avcpl

Yes he does but he is discussing either a hit of Racemic 50:50 or isolated S Isomer or isolated R Isomer.

What about say a mix of 70:30? The majority of the pill is 50:50 but there is 20% swing towards one of the isomers.

This might be a more viable prospect for something good.

I have read some reports where people like the seperated isomers.

Shulgins is of course just an opinion of what it feels like for him. Might be slightly different for you or I.

We are waiting for Vader to chime in and tell us how practical this plan might be in practical chemistry reality. Some say seperating isomers is a pain.

We still havent figured out why a defqon is a "dance" pill and a "speaker" is mellow. Theres a few theories out there now just waiting on Vader and phase_dancer for their opinion. I have posted them both so hope to get a response soon.

Here is the link for all the relevant books. Feel free to have a browse.

http://www.4shared.com/folder/nM4gT-vL/General_Synthesis.html

 

[Folley]

The sticky gooo MDMA you sometimes encounter is usually caused by a different salt type.

I have been reading more about MDMA salts. The different acid salts have a different molecular mass. Ie the Sulphuric Acid Molecule is heavier than the Hydrochloric Acid molecule. This is a big reason why salts have different effects.

I also read that some of the other salts tend to absorb water hence the gooo. If you find some gooo. Give it a try this is likely a new salt type.

Frankly, I think that is HORRIBLE harm reduction and that everyone should completely disregard that. Telling people to try a nasty, impurity filled brown blob without testing is probably the worst thing you can do in HR.

First, lets take a look at some of the things being sold that fit you're description:

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2371
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2273
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2298

and here's one that shows us what good "amber" or brown molly should look like:
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2291




Brown is a sign of impurities. Safrole and sassafras oil are brown, MDMA is not. MDMA should be a odorless and colorless crystal, even if it's in another salt, it should never be brown. If it's hygroscopic than it might take on a gooey texture, but it still should NOT be brown. At worst, it should come out looking like amphetamine paste..


so I'm going to have to firmly disagree with you there Futura. Even if SOMEHOW what you said was true, I still find that in bad taste.... the majority of nasty brown MDMA I've ever seen was either adulterated, or horribly impure. In many cases, it's both.


If you see gooey brown MDMA... stay the fuck away from it. Even if it tests good on a reagent, that's the kind of shit that comes out of those nasty toilet labs. The picture you posted might be good stuff, but the majority of clumpy brown MDMA I've seen looks much more like the first ED link I posted, basically that consistency but in larger clumps

 

[futura2012]

I have removed the statement referring to trying some brown MDMA that has offended you.

I still want to know what MDMA tartrate is like to try?

We are hopefully waiting on posts from Vader and Phase Dancer who will add some very valuable inputs to this discussion. it would be great if we can get off the HR and Addiction topic now.

The brown in MDMA can come from a variety of sources. Yes it is an impurity but its not necessarily unsafe. Gooey usually means its attracting water (not always but likely). Safrol can be light brown sometimes its yellow but there are loads of other things in the reactions that could be the cause of a brown colouration. MD-P2P is also brown.

If you choose not to take Gooey or brown MDMA that is fine. It doesnt necessarily mean its come from an unhygenic lab it just most likely means elements of the final filtering and washing process has been avoided. In many cases the chemist does this out of choice as many feel brown MDMA has a more full on buzz about it.

If its brown MDMA, white MDMA I would actually say white is more likely to be adulterated.

If you wanted to remove the impurity and make it white you could opt to take it back to freebase, filter clean and recrystalize.

We are discussing illicit drugs, chemistry and theories nothing is a guarantee. Sometimes when I am typing theories I am not thinking about addiction or HR.

My point is if you see gooo its likely a different salt. If you look out for crystal structure thats also another tell tale sign.

It gets kinda tricky when I am discussing theories that Addiction and HR keeps being pulled up.

Maybe a disclaimer at the start of the thread from Mark might solve this?

 

[THC2LSD]

As I understand it MDA > MDMA is a poor choice of route. It produces low yields and if you have MDA most labs would leave it at that. It would seem most plausable to seperate the isomers from MDMA but as to excatly how much hassle this and how practical this is. A chemist such as phase_dancer or Vader could answer this issue.

There's other routes besides what I think you might be thinking of with high yields. The isomers are resolved by using a chiral acid, such as D-tartaric acid, to fractionally crystallizes the enantiomer. D-MDMA(active) crystallizes out, L-MDMA(not as active) stays in solution. I'm no crystallographer, but I think when the isomers are different it changes the direction in which the crystals form, which is why racemic mixtures don't usually form as big crystals, it's going both ways. Couldn't be too much trouble, that's what the Mexican drug cartels are using to make D-meth from P2P. Also the L isomer can be racematized.

No source was provided on your last post. I was very polite and I did say please.

I gave it to you. If you don't like or trust it too bad.

I would question the accuracy of this. MD-P2P has been a watched chemical since way back.

But isosafrole glycol is not.

From briefly reading about it looks like it requires Red Phospourous an Iodene. Might be tricky to source. Shake and Bake is all OTC hence why its so desirable and every tweaker is doing it.

Don't think it's just push pull, maybe a variant but must be something else.

Again I would question the acuracy of this UN source. Lab operators have always used substitute precursors to make MD-P2P. MD-P2P would be illegal in all countries. If in a country it were not legal the States and Australia would be all over it. The key ingredient is Sasafras Oil>Safrole. From safrole you normally go via MD-P2P to get to MDMA.

Why would they lie? They've been using safrole to make MDP2P for a while, why bother mentioning it if they're just making their own MDP2P? It might be something different.

Do you have a reference source of the Merck patent? I am surprised to hear a patent would contain a method on how to synthesise the patent.

MD-P2P is the simplest precursor to MDMA. The bromosafrole route is mentioned in Festers book but by all accounts seems a novel and unlikely occurance in practical clan techniques.

It was patented in 1912, as a possible anti-bleeding drug or precursor. The patent probably left out some proprietary shit, it has been used in a lab, and I think there might have been some improvements made. I can't link to synthesis sources.

Brown is a sign of impurities. Safrole and sassafras oil are brown, MDMA is not. MDMA should be a odorless and colorless crystal, even if it's in another salt, it should never be brown. If it's hygroscopic than it might take on a gooey texture, but it still should NOT be brown. At worst, it should come out looking like amphetamine paste..

It could be like 99% with the brown shit making up only .5%, or it could be white as snow and impure as fuck. Sometimes it doesn't take much impurities to change the color, or the impurities themselves are colorless. Though I'm leaning more towards that shit is higher end but still rather impure.


Back on topic. IMO the possible explanation of difference between pills with MDMA could be:
1.Salt type
2.isomers
3.binders
4.impurities
5.crystal structure
6.way the pills are made
7.Adulterants

Is there anymore?

 

[futura2012]

MDA > MDMA seems an unnecessary route. (1) you already have MDA (2) You lose product / you lose money. Total Synthesis 1 by strike is a great source discussing this theory. Unfortunately I dont have this book the one online is only half the book.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3912407/Total-Synthesis-I-Strike

If you know where to get it I am all ears. Would love a copy of this book.

I still think if you were going to seperate isomers as I understand it racemic mdma is created in the process of MD-P2P to crystal. At this point the isomers are then seperated. I think to have seperate isomers during MDMA creation you need a very exotic catalyst along with some very exotic lab skills and equipment.

I am still not 100% convinced that isomers are used. It is currently just a theory. This topic now needs a chemist to chime in and put this concept to either "its very viable" or "nah in reality its not happening". I have found methods online to do it. We know its theoretically possible. We know that no one ever bothers to look for the isomer balance ie ecstasydata so it just needs someone who has some practical organic lab experience to give it their 2 cents. Does the Defqon lab use isomers to make a "DANCE" pill?

Safrole and all the precursors resulting from this are watched. In chemistry you can theoretically make anything from anything but its the most practical and cost effective solutions that become the norm. Unfortunately due to the demise of the Hive and Law Enforcement awareness of online activity no longer can you go online and read a "twitter" update on what the latest MDMA chemist has been doing in Holland last night. For this reason all the Erowid Rhodium stuff, Strikes books etc in terms of new synth processes are very out of date now.

I do have a snapshot copy of the hive before it was busted and shut down if of interest. I just need to find somewhere that will allow me to upload a 1gb file free. 4 shared conks out as the file is too big.

Festers 8th Edition Meth/MDMA book is probably one of the most up to date. Also Snows Love drugs isnt bad. I think it was that one that revolutionised the "Shake and Bake". All festers books are really is a rewrite of stuff that was on the hive at the time. As to where he sources info for the 8th Edition I dont honestly know.

http://www.4shared.com/folder/nM4gT-vL/General_Synthesis.html

In reality are these processes featured in Strikes book Rhodium etc still used today? Probably very likely as thats all the information currently published, safrol is still easy to find and most of these synths are relatively simple using very basic distillation, reflux and seperation processes. A lot of it can be modified to be carried out in plastic buckets etc. When you actually read the guides particularly the pictorials I would describe it as following an advanced cooking recipe. Very simple for this reason I persoally think the MD-P2P route is 9/10 what your going to see. All the real labs I see pictures of in newspapers etc seem to illustrate this. I could be wrong...

Slightly modified version but very close to what you think.

1.Salt type
2.Isomers
3.Binders
4.Impurities from synths
5.Crystal structure
6.How compacted the pill is
7.Adulterants
8.Dose
9.Fillers (pseudo, sugars)(could argue this is adulterant)

I have been reading a bit about MD-PBP as a precursor to MDMA I will post some links as I find out more. Read some of those books if you can. Festers 8th I think is the most up to date.

If we can lets try and keep this thread more theory now and less argument based. New links, new thoughts, new pictures, new books. Most of us here arent chemists we just want to learn.

 

[THC2LSD]

I've read them. Lots of outdated stuff. Uncle Fester is one of the better ones, real soulja in the trenches, but really he only has experience with one way of cooking meth, the Leuckart reaction, possibly some with the common ephedrine ones and Al/Hg. Uncle Fester's kind of a victim of his own success. He so notorious that he can't test most of the new shit he reads about. DEA would be on him like white on rice. His books have been found in countless "labs", and every cop and crook knows his name. He also has a family. If he was busted in this age of anti-meth hysteria he wouldn't be doing 3 years, he'd do deuce 5 to life.So besides finding a patent, research paper, or online post, it's all theory, except the above mentioned methods.

He posted on some websites, though a bunch of people were pissed that his book wasn't 100% accurate, flamed him and he kind of went away. Too bad, in spite of how accurate a book can be compared to the ever-changing internet, he did study chemistry, actually did some of the stuff he wrote, and did seem knowledgeable, open to new ideas. I like the guy, and am torn between buy his book just because I support him and his way of fighting on the good side of the War On Drugs, and not so as to not leave incriminating evidence. Even though I don't cook and it's inaccurate a lot, I just think it's an interesting book. He was the first, before the internet you either had to buy a recipe, search through a college library, and then you could buy his book. Good starting point, but better to learn the chemistry involved.

The Leuckart was popular in the 1970's but died out in favor of Al/Hg in the 80's. Wisconsin, Fester's home state, was one of the holdouts in the US that still used the Leuckart reaction.It's simple to do with less watched precursors and minimal equipment, but more prone to failure and gives more impurities and lower yield than most other methods, though some say there's tricks to make it work great. I think it's the most common method in Europe, at least for amphetamine, think it's sometimes used for MDMA too(not sure what the most popular method is in Europe, think it might be or have been the leuckart). Maybe if you're used to leuckart molly you'd feel different that from other preparations, since it seems to have a bunch of by-products. Or if you're used to one made by one method and find it either better or worse. I do know that this is true for all the street drugs I've done, can't see why it wouldn't apply to MDMA.

MDA > MDMA seems an unnecessary route. (1) you already have MDA (2) You lose product / you lose money

If you resolve the individual isomers to keep the L-MDA(active) then covert D-MDA(not very active) to D-MDMA(active) I think it'd be worth it. 2X the product.

I still think if you were going to seperate isomers as I understand it racemic mdma is created in the process of MD-P2P to crystal. At this point the isomers are then seperated. I think to have seperate isomers during MDMA creation you need a very exotic catalyst along with some very exotic lab skills and equipment.

I am still not 100% convinced that isomers are used. It is currently just a theory. This topic now needs a chemist to chime in and put this concept to either "its very viable" or "nah in reality its not happening". I have found methods online to do it. We know its theoretically possible. We know that no one ever bothers to look for the isomer balance ie ecstasydata so it just needs someone who has some practical organic lab experience to give it their 2 cents. Does the Defqon lab use isomers to make a "DANCE" pill?

I can't think of a catalyst that favors different ratios of isomers. AFAIK all common reductive aminations and alkylations give the isomers in equal proportions, just different impurities. There are chiral precursors like MDPAC or alpha-methylbenzylamine that will give only one isomer. Strangely, the patent on L-MDPAC is also from Merck. AFAIK the only 2 clandestine cooks that are known to use of the L-PAC method. Only one dude in Austrailia and the United Wa State Army in Burma uses it, for meth unfortunately. And if a nickle catalyst is used it can cause racemization, though it should still balance out to racemic. Could use that same catalyst to make the racemic out of one isomer.

While I'm certain the someone, somewhere, at some point, has made something besides racemic, I'm willing to bet 99% is the racemic. Could be wrong. Be interesting to see what a 50/50 mixture of DL-MDMA and D-MDMA, like Adderall, would be like

Very simple for this reason I persoally think the MD-P2P route is 9/10 what your going to see. All the real labs I see pictures of in newspapers etc seem to illustrate this. I could be wrong...

I agree, though I think other methods may sometimes be used. There's others without MDP2P besides halosafrole but are rather dangerous and not very effective.

How about an experiment for those chemist with CI licenses? Make raw MDMA different ways and preform bioassays on each method to see if there's a difference. Kind of risky, some possibly poisonous shit(could imagine an organomercuric compound made with one method but AFAIK not reported, shitloads of God knows what for some others). But hey, all in the name of science

 

[futura2012]

Disclaimer: Information below is not harm reduction. Do not try this

Just an aside. I have just been informed by reliable source that if you mix MDMA with a small amount of red wine when you take it the effects are awesome. Reason being it contains Tartaric and Citric Acid. Apparently no other alcoholic drink other than red wine works. Apparently it causes a more massive and quick high. Reliable source To further the experiment you could also try mixing with sugar.

Yes Uncle Fester is funny. Here is the video if someone hasnt seen it. Please provide more links and videos of drug chemists if you know of any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PFQbckZivM

I have also added in the book collection

Advanced Techniques Of Clandestine Psychedelic and Amphetamine Manufacture - Uncle Fester

http://www.4shared.com/folder/nM4gT-vL/General_Synthesis.html

I think its a bit speculative to say a region where a particular reaction may or may not be popular.

His books are interesting but in my opinion not the best. I like total synthesis II by strike and the one half of total synthesis 1 LOL. I also liked the HIVE I think he had some massive balls to set that up.

He caught it at the right time and lifted the synth chat from Alt.drugs in awful asci text to pictures and information swapping like never seen before. In my opinion he was a major influence on the quality of pills in the USA circu 2000-2004ish

Although Law Enforcement were behind the times so were the users really. It was the largest gatheing of underground chemists I think you will ever see. I must get that Hive ISO uploaded. I want to try and track down the Flagstaff students and see what was being said. I think now a days everyone realises the security risks of the internet but at the time no one did neither the chemists hence the open pictures, info etc. It was crazy times. I remember that site so well.

Here is the link if no one has seen the strike interviews:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2N-oNgUPHY

I am not so sure about Leuckart being more simple I have no practical experience of the two so could only speculate. By all accounts it all looks pretty easy to me. I think your main problem with making MDMA is sourcing precursors and not getting caught doing it.

Maybe if you're used to leuckart molly you'd feel different that from other preparations, since it seems to have a bunch of by-products.

This I am sure is true the synth routes and as a result impurities do for sure have a big influence on the final high. I have heard this mentioned on synth forums numerous times.

MDA > MDMA seems an unnecessary route. (1) you already have MDA (2) You lose product / you lose money

If you resolve the individual isomers to keep the L-MDA(active) then covert D-MDA(not very active) to D-MDMA(active) I think it'd be worth it. 2X the product.

I see what your saying. The theory makes some sense. My chemistry knowledge is too limited on how viable this theory might be. I guess if you were limited by precursor this might be worth it but I suspect most wouldnt bother and just keep cranking out MDA.

If you are interested in synths send me a PM and I will give you a link to a good synth site there is a modern synth on there for MDA using helional as a precursor that you can order innocently on ebay. The synth looks almost childs play. Also big discussions on crystallization all that kind of stuff.

I can't think of a catalyst that favors different ratios of isomers.

I am no expert on the topic but there is such a thing. If there is a method that can perform this in the process of MDMA I can only assume it would be theoretically possible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiral_ligand the term is called an asymmetric catalyst. The process involved is called asymmetric synthesis. I am sure a clan lab would be very unlikely to perform an exercise of this kind. That was the point I was making.

If they were going to do it I think they would make MDMA then seperate the isomers at that point. How they actually do this I dont know seems either a method to some how crash out the crystals using tartric acid or making hcl and performing some kind of seperation method.

There are chiral precursors like MDPAC or alpha-methylbenzylamine that will give only one isomer.

I did a little search on alpha-methylbenzylamine. Understanding of this is now out of my league but I found another site in the process of my search:

https://sites.google.com/site/amcrasto/drug-synthesis

I then realised ignoring MD-P2P might not be so difficult after all.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/chemistry/chemistry/aminomercuration.html

I seem to remember in the Strike interview an order was placed by the Flagstaff students for sodium borohydride. I think a lot of these articles start their lives as Research papers and then got rehashed by various Hive members. This might well be the route they chose I will have a brief look at the interview again as I remember there being some student notes on what they were doing.

I just need to find somewhere I can upload the hive its 1GB in size. Any ideas? I have tried a few but no joy. This will beat all synth books hands down. This is an archive of the entire forum and website.

AFAIK the only 2 clandestine cooks that are known to use of the L-PAC method. Only one dude in Austrailia and the United Wa State Army in Burma uses it, for meth unfortunately.

Sources? links? books?

And if a nickle catalyst is used it can cause racemization, though it should still balance out to racemic. Could use that same catalyst to make the racemic out of one isomer.

Dunno vader is the man for this.

I agree, though I think other methods may sometimes be used. There's others without MDP2P besides halosafrole but are rather dangerous and not very effective.

The more I read the more I realise this is very true. maybe that route above is used more than we think. the only hassle is it involves mercury but this isnt so bad if you know how to handle it and the dangers involved.

How about an experiment for those chemist with CI licenses? Make raw MDMA different ways and preform bioassays on each method to see if there's a difference. Kind of risky, some possibly poisonous shit(could imagine an organomercuric compound made with one method but AFAIK not reported, shitloads of God knows what for some others). But hey, all in the name of science

The future of MDMA Chemistry?

Automated Synthesis System

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISJS-MZrAR8

12500 Litre Reactor (to ermm up scale some what)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7j6cWTSs-Q&feature=related

A likable professor type discusses his micro scale Automatic Chemistry Lab.
That then spits out the contents into a GC/MS crazy!!

Imagine having access to this kit with one of Shulgins books in your hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihKIfCJBQII

 

[avcpl]

I have just been informed by reliable source that if you mix MDMA with a small amount of red wine when you take it the effects are awesome. Reason being it contains Tartaric and Citric Acid. Apparently no other alcoholic drink other than red wine works. Apparently it causes a more massive and quick high. Reliable source

That has not been my experience, unfortunately.

 

[futura2012]

What kind of wine did you try it with avcpl?

Did you also try sugar with it?

What was the mix MDMA Xtal or pill?