Dark night, psychedelics and awakening

[juniorcat]

'Even though we are beings of pure radiance, we do not appear radiant in front of eachother' Terence Mckenna

Ok, I think I'm on the right track to simplifying the whole dark night of the soul thing in my mind. It seems the psychedelic experience can change people's lives for the better. The use of these substances can put one into a more positive mind set.

Zen and enlightened folk say that a 'positive' mindset is not all we are aiming for, but rather an all encompasing acceptance (including 'negativity'ain, fear). The awakened also say however that behind this deep acceptance of even pain is actually pure peace and love because one is no longer clinging to states as they are like waves in the vast ocean of everything.

The practice of zen and the use of psychotropics seem to contradict eachother's purpose on the spiritual path. Psychedelics help one mold metaphysical realities and thus induce a happier mindset if used wisely, but I've yet to hear of anyone becoming eternal from eating 5 dried grams of magic mushrooms. However I do wonder if it could be achieved by repeated dissolving of ones conditioning. Conditioning, which can be seen through with the mind; seeing through which is supposedly more present when felt truly in awakening.

I can only compare my suffering to the suffering I have experienced in the past. But I do believe I've had my share and hope to one day fully trancend it.

 

[Ismene]

Zen and enlightened folk say that a 'positive' mindset is not all we are aiming for, but rather an all encompasing acceptance (including 'negativity'ain, fear). The awakened also say however that behind this deep acceptance of even pain is actually pure peace and love because one is no longer clinging to states as they are like waves in the vast ocean of everything.

It's always best to look at the reality of how these "awakened" or "zen" folk actually live their lives rather than their words tho. For the last 1000 years the Tibetan Buddhist monks studied zen buddhism 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. During this time they ran a feudal slave-based system where the local tibetans were made to work like motherfuckers to support their buddhist "masters". If a hungry tibetan stole a goat then his awakened buddhist master would cut his hand off and then gouge his eye out. They broke those motherfuckers in two.

So obviously the reality of a zen buddhist is about as far from being enlightened or awakened as it's humanly possible to get. "Show no attachement to possessions unless some bastard takes thy goat..."

but I've yet to hear of anyone becoming eternal from eating 5 dried grams of magic mushrooms.

Not sure what you mean by eternal but I'd put most psychedelic users up against most tibetan buddhist masters any day of the week. I doubt a psychedelic user would gouge your eyes out for pinching his fucking goat for a starter.

 

[twelvesevndi]

psychedelics may give you a glimpse of your goal.
but it is up to you to carry yourself to that destination under your own power.

 

[Ismene]

.

psychedelics may give you a glimpse of your goal.
but it is up to you to carry yourself to that destination under your own power.

No, the psychedelic experience requires a psychedelic. You can't recreate it sober. If you study buddhism for 70 years you might get the tiniest glimpse of what a psychedelic experience can be.

 

[juniorcat]

The experience is just that: an experience, which inevitably folds over and makes way for the next experience. It seems that these experiences become little more than memories, rather than etched referal points in the psyche for those on a spiritual path.

'Gettin' high and coming down. Just gettin' high and then coming down' - Ram Dass

 

[juniorcat]

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No, the psychedelic experience requires a psychedelic. You can't recreate it sober. If you study buddhism for 70 years you might get the tiniest glimpse of what a psychedelic experience can be.

Supposedly time is catching up and what took 70 years to learn 200 years ago, now takes 2 years for a kid to learn.

 

[twelvesevndi]

.

No, the psychedelic experience requires a psychedelic. You can't recreate it sober. If you study buddhism for 70 years you might get the tiniest glimpse of what a psychedelic experience can be.

you have thoroughly misunderstood me, sir.

or perhaps i misunderstood the OP. i thought he was asking something along the lines of: "can you attain enlightenment through psychedelics alone"
in my mind, the answer to that question is "certainly not"

i find psychedelics to be tremendously useful tools but you have to put in work during the trip and during your sober life if you wish to obtain something lasting and tangible from them.

 

[Nephtys]

Only a pure intention and desire to learn will guide you. Knowledge is food for the soul...

 

[RhythmSpring]

'Even though we are beings of pure radiance, we do not appear radiant in front of eachother' Terence Mckenna

Ok, I think I'm on the right track to simplifying the whole dark night of the soul thing in my mind. It seems the psychedelic experience can change people's lives for the better. The use of these substances can put one into a more positive mind set.

Zen and enlightened folk say that a 'positive' mindset is not all we are aiming for, but rather an all encompasing acceptance (including 'negativity'ain, fear). The awakened also say however that behind this deep acceptance of even pain is actually pure peace and love because one is no longer clinging to states as they are like waves in the vast ocean of everything.

The practice of zen and the use of psychotropics seem to contradict eachother's purpose on the spiritual path. Psychedelics help one mold metaphysical realities and thus induce a happier mindset if used wisely, but I've yet to hear of anyone becoming eternal from eating 5 dried grams of magic mushrooms. However I do wonder if it could be achieved by repeated dissolving of ones conditioning. Conditioning, which can be seen through with the mind; seeing through which is supposedly more present when felt truly in awakening.

I can only compare my suffering to the suffering I have experienced in the past. But I do believe I've had my share and hope to one day fully trancend it.

Why would you want to simplify the dark night of the soul in your mind? Why label it, dissect it and compartmentalize it?

Happier mindsets are not "induced." You are happy. You also make yourself unhappy by putting all these notions of happiness in the future tense.

Why would you want to become "eternal"? I enjoy being finite rather much.

Why do you want to "achieve" anything? Notice how your body reacts to you thinking about "achieving."

Anything you "achieve," you lose. Anything you gain, you lose. Any happiness you get will eventually be followed by dejection. You're right in saying that freedom comes from equanimity (paraphrasing). But it's not achieved. Don't be an achiever.

Be a settler. Settle into yourself, your own personal truth (as opposed to metaphysical). If it's about screwdrivers, so be it. Dogs, sure. Guitars, okay.

Then, watch all four parts of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aufuwMiKmE

 

[slo mo]

.

No, the psychedelic experience requires a psychedelic. You can't recreate it sober. If you study buddhism for 70 years you might get the tiniest glimpse of what a psychedelic experience can be.

I like your quotes, highest regard %)

 

[Ismene]

i find psychedelics to be tremendously useful tools but you have to put in work during the trip and during your sober life if you wish to obtain something lasting and tangible from them.

But what work can you put in? If you have an orgasm and then spend 20 years in earnest contemplation of what it meant, what goals you can work toward - is that any more useful than simply having an other orgasm? Can earnest work and contemplation really teach you anything about an orgasm? So why would earnest contemplation teach you anything more about a psychedelic experience? Arn't you better off simply tripping again?

I don't think enlightenment exists to be honest - I've certainly never heard of anyone who you could call enlightened. Certainly Buddhism, Hinduism are all about as far away from a path to enlightenment as you can possibly get.

I like your quotes, highest regard %)

I try my best slo

 

[webbykevin]

Then, watch all four parts of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aufuwMiKmE

Better still imo, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5dHTXii7Ag&feature=plcp

 

[RhythmSpring]

"People say, ‘oh you can’t change human nature over night.’ ‘You’re asking us to give up the ego, and that’s the most difficult of all things to do.’ ... ... Actually, it isn’t, ... because the ego doesn’t exist. But of course if you try to give up your ego with your ego, then it will take you ... to the end of time. Because this is the point. You can’t transform youself. You can’t make yourself sane, you can’t make yourself loving, you can’t make yourself unselfish, .. and yet it’s absolutely necessary that we be that way.

It’s absolutely necessary, if we are going to hand over the direction of nature to nature, which is what it comes to. It’s absolutely necessary, that we let go of ourselves, and it can’t be done, not by anything we call doing it, acting, willing, or even just accepting things, ... you can’t do it. Why? Because you don’t really exist, as that kind of a separate ego or personality. It’s just an idea based on a funny feeling. So when it comes down to it, it’s shocking news for us, for the human race, for our pride. You’re only making a mess by trying to put things straight. You’re trying to straighten out a wiggly world and no wonder you’re in trouble. So you can’t do anything. So you can’t transform yourself. And what can you do? What happens then, if you actually realize that you’ve come to a dead end? ... and the human race has come to a dead end, in my opinion."

-- Alan Watts

 

[Dondante]

Spiritual development is a process, not a destination. The same can be said of enlightenment. I agree with Ismene's assertion that enlightenment as a categorically distinct mental state probably doesn't exist. That said, I think it's misguided to say that there's nothing to work on (or to integrate into one's life) following a profoundly positive psychedelic experience. There certainly can be insights that arise during (or that secondarily spring from) this kind of life-affirming experience, and these insights may cause one to want to make lifestyle changes in order to harmonize oneself with the profound experience. If that's too vague, I'm saying that this kind of experience can result in someone wanting to be more kind, generous, empathetic, etc. ...unfortunately, the integration of these insights and lasting changes in behavior don't come without work.

p.s. I enjoyed your posts, RhythmSpring.

 

[IamMe90]

But what work can you put in? If you have an orgasm and then spend 20 years in earnest contemplation of what it meant, what goals you can work toward - is that any more useful than simply having an other orgasm? Can earnest work and contemplation really teach you anything about an orgasm? So why would earnest contemplation teach you anything more about a psychedelic experience? Arn't you better off simply tripping again?

I don't think enlightenment exists to be honest - I've certainly never heard of anyone who you could call enlightened. Certainly Buddhism, Hinduism are all about as far away from a path to enlightenment as you can possibly get.



I try my best slo

He's not talking about buddhist enlightenment, just getting anything tangible out of a psychedelic experience. There are plenty of things that you can garner from a psychedelic experience that require contemplation afterward to fully understand, that's what most people on this board refer to as the period of integration. Understanding yourself better, your personality, the more subtle and hidden motivations behind your daily actions, things that are therapeutic to understand that are normally hidden under the pile of daily baggage we carry: most of us have things like that that are made clearer when tripping that are fully understood only after the experience when we sit down and think about them with a completely lucid mind after having them exposed during a trip.

 

[Ismene]

There are plenty of things that you can garner from a psychedelic experience that require contemplation afterward to fully understand

Maybe, but I've always gone along with Lennon on this. The trip is one thing. What you do with it afterwards is what you do with it afterwards.

I'm not sure how much value there is contemplating a psychedelic experience when sober.