• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
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How we rolled in the 90s when the pills were super strong

The railing is certainly an interesting point. Once you start to rail stuff the filler and binder becomes more of an issue.

The time release comes from the binder/coating so if thats off then I would reckon if you are railing then less filler would make for a more intense high.


Still confused about this Pseudo being used as a binder idea? I didnt know pseudo had affixative or glue like qualities? I dont think it does.

Why is caffeine used as a binder? again it doesnt have binder qualities. Its an adulterant or filler.

I am not sure why you are suggesting pseudo or caffeine would be used as a binder folley?? it makes no sense to me. I cant agree on that.

One of the big problems 'shake and bake' meth manufacturers have is removing the binder from the pseudo pills. The pseudo itself is not the binder its the target precursor.



in true honesty I am still confused by all those US pills having pseudo in them. If you were to take a pill with say 60mG MDMA, 40mG MDA, 40mG MDEA, 20mG METH. If you then necked say one or two sudafed pills do you think you would feel anything???

I dont know the true answer as I have not tried it but I just cant see it having much of an effect?

A lot of those pills have meth in them. It is possible that the pseudo is being picked up as an impurity. But then again the ratios dont add up. Also some of the pills dont have meth but have pseudo.

Yes pseudo has some CNS effect but very weak up aginst the likes of MDMA, MDA, MDEA, METH etc.

Its weird because if you have pseudo its very easy to make meth. Meth would be a lot more affective in the pill.

I am slightly confused by this i must be honest. It just dont make any true sense.. there must be a good reason I just cant see it.


Meth in a pill is a personal taste thing. many people love it. It extends the role. It makes the pill stronger. For many pressers it was a beneficial thing to do.

However, the likes of pill reports, reagent tests and the recent up rise of dreadful piperazines then I think there is a new driving force in the market to not adulterate pills.

If you do then the reagent tests pick it up and this very quickly gets reported on pill reports. people reference pills on phones in clubs and the dealer loses his customer base.

I reckon this is a big reason now why the dutch are focussing on just MDMA super pills. The reagent tests pick up on them in a good way, pill reports go wild you have an instant fan base. The 250 bomb you pointed out is a classic example of this. people will pay a premium for this pill as there is a lot more 'knowledge' out there that has to be recognised as a market force.

is it 250mG currently yet to be proven but sure is sure if you have a bag of those in a rave your getting laid tonight LOL. They are clearly strong what ever the dose.

For me personally I never really liked MDA or speed in pills. I like the way now if you want this then you add your own adulterant.


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LAST POINT NEW TOPIC

Its interestng what you say George about the Super Pills many people say they strong but are short lived.

i was just thinking about this oxy dose topic.

Do you think say a 80mG hit of identical MDMA could produce slower come up slower come down?

Could a 160mG hit of identical MDMA produce a faster come up faster come down?

Or is it the higher dose becomes a psychological issue.

Once you are that high from the big dose you think your coming down but your infact not. Its just your reference to base level is that much higher?

You could probably work this out in some way using a metabolized 'half life' theory.

For this new concept the MDMA is identical source. The user is not burnt out. The same user is taking the two different doses.

perhaps you could say that the dose is infact a VERY important factor of the perceived high?

Is this something we have overlooked whilst looking at the chemistry / physical aspects?
 
Could you be more specific on "strong but short lived?"

How many of the super pills are taken and how long do they last? I have not been to Holland.

In the 90s and in certain instances in the 2000s, I could take 2 pills and peak for a good 4 -6 hours (hence the phrase "5 hour orgasm") depending...we're talking mdma here. If you have mda and/or amp mixed in, it would be on the longer end of that range. Nowadays, it seems like a good peak lasts 2 hours if you're lucky. These are estimates.
 
toastmann said:
As a Dutch person, I can relate to this. These latest pills, like the Speaker, Defqon's and Triforces are indeed very, very good. Most hitting the 200mg mark, they are very clean and are really awesome. However, the duration is just crap.
I have yet to try it on a non-empty stomach, but one pill will give me a peak of 2 hours or so. From what I have understand, adding MDEA/MDA will significantly increase duration. So, why won't they do it ? I would be more happy to have a 100mg MDMA + 50mg MDA pill then one of 200mg MDMA. I mean, prices for these pills are ridiculously cheap. It's a steal. Why not make them somewhat more expensive, and add some MDEA/MDA ?
Click to expand...

This is a comment I noticed in the "Back in my Day" thread.

The point about the MDA/MDEA coctail is duley noted, discussed and I think we have reached a reasonable conclusion.

But what we havent discussed so much yet is the theory of dose having an effect on perceived high.

Is toastmann only peaking two hours because his "reference point" ie bassline (feeling nothing, clean) perception is tricked by the high dose.

The body gets so used to the intense rush that as you start to come down you feel 'clear' but infact you are far from it.


Its hard to explain but if you look at a low dose example. Say I take 40mG I will feel it sure but wont be grabbing hold of things to stabalise myself as i come up. If this is the case cause the high is relatively low its easier to relate it to bassline and therefore easier to measure the after effect.

The other point is if you take a drug is the comedown a log scale or a linear scale? this is calculated using the half life of a drug. I dunno why its called half life but i think the idea is half the drug having an active effect. A bit of googling might be needed here.

I hope you understand my point.

So if the comedown is log scale then a high dose will 'clear' quicker than a low dose.

If its linear the clear will be the same.

I have a feeling both come up and down is log.

If so this is a very significant point to the potential potency and duration of pill.

It was reading the stuff you mentioned about the oxy that made me think of this.


I hope this makes sense sorry its a bit of a rambley explaination.

Would really appreciate comments on this theory.
 
in true honesty I am still confused by all those US pills having pseudo in them. If you were to take a pill with say 60mG MDMA, 40mG MDA, 40mG MDEA, 20mG METH. If you then necked say one or two sudafed pills do you think you would feel anything???

I dont know the true answer as I have not tried it but I just cant see it having much of an effect?
Click to expand...

That's the point... again, we both agree that methamphetamine makes a pill undesirable, if you added PE to a pill you wouldn't really even be able to tell it's in there, but it would still cause an additional NE release which will be directly connected to the "magic", and give the user some light stimulation

futura2012 said:
perhaps you could say that the dose is infact a VERY important factor of the perceived high
Click to expand...


Well... duh lol. If you take more you're going to get higher, that's kind of obvious... but everything I have seen says that the pills of the 90s are lower dosed than the super beans of today if anything... I haven't seen many 90s pills that have over 150mg MDMA though, over in Holland that's the standard...


Maybe I just don't understand where your going with the dose thing though?
 
"That's the point... again, we both agree that methamphetamine makes a pill undesirable,"

Meth in a pill is a personal thing, undesirable for some not for others.


"but it would still cause an additional NE release which will be directly connected to the "magic", and give the user some light stimulation"

Go to a rave, find a friend or yourself who is well fucked up on pills. Give them a sudafed pill. Report back let us know if they feel it?

Try it and see. Until then its just a theory.

Be careful you dont get arrested for "smurfin" when you get the sudafed LOL.



Re the dose I havent explained very well. Sorry I will try again. Its very hard to explain but once you grasp it you will see what im on about.


Its the intensity and speed of come up, and the intensity and speed of come down thats the discussion point.

The complaint in the quote from the dutch chap suggests a Speaker is fast come up, short duration, fast comedown.

Particularly the super pills get these kind of comments.

Why?

Forget Chemistry, forget down regulation. These are factors for sure. but let me explain my new concept..



Imagine two identical users "clones", two pills "same batch MDMA". Pill 1 is 50mG pill 2 is 200mG

I think when we come up from a pill its a LOG scale.

Ie you take pill you feel nothing say for 45 mins then last 5 mins you go from bassline to peak. slight tingley feeling, gets slightly stronger then all of a sudden "wham" rushing etc.

usually particularly with pills its very sudden.

Draw this on a scrap of paper "How fucked I am" on the vertical scale and then the "time scale" on the horizontal. You will get a log curve forming going from bassline 0 to Peak max. initially gradual then gets very sudden 'vertical' climb

The level of rise from bassline to peak for high dose user is obviousley a bigger climb than the low dose user.

BUT

because the come up happens on the vertical part of the scale in the same period of time the low user hits peak but the high user keeps climbing. Time isnt moving on because the climb on the graph is vertical.

As a result the high user come up is "more intense" "more extreme" "he gets a lot higher in that moment of time at the 45 minute point

if it were linear both come ups gradual.

Does that explain it a better?


I think dose plays a big part of intensity of come up.
 
^ But pills of the 90s had large doses as well, how are these "super pills" causing such a quick come up and come down, but pills in the old days could last 5 hours? Amp and MDA aside..


The pills we are talking about contain 200mg of MDMA, and are probably pressed with pharmaceutical grade binders... but again, I always bite my pills when I take them anyways so I NEVER have to worry about how fast it's dissolving.


To be honest, I think it's bull shit that these pills only last 2 hours. Every roll I've had has lasted at least 4 hours, usually like 6 if I redose.




Go to a rave, find a friend or yourself who is well fucked up on pills. Give them a sudafed pill. Report back let us know if they feel it
Click to expand...


My goodness :| the point is that they WON'T feel it. If you added meth to a pill, you're going to get very cracked out and IMO, it's going to "kill the love", so to speak. Psuedoephedrine won't do that, but it IS a stimulant by itself, and it IS going to cause a difference to the high. You can't deny that... it causes a direct release of NE that, for the last time, causes light stimulation and may possibly enhance a roll's magic, considering that Norepinephrine is very important to MDMA's magic.






Also, we ought to take a look at these pills:

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2555
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2559


The small amounts of MDA in those pills are left over as a synthesis byproduct... I'm sure that would have some effect on the high, maybe people were just doing their work sloppier in the 90s leading to small impurities in the crystal
 
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" But pills of the 90s had large doses as well, how are these "super pills" causing such a quick come up and come down, but pills in the old days could last 5 hours? Amp and MDA aside.."

Its not a super pill vs 90s pill point.

The question is does a high dose MDMA pill cause a more intense come up than a low dose MDMA pill?

Its a theory not a statement.

You either agree or disagree? If you disagree then why?


"To be honest, I think it's bull shit that these pills only last 2 hours. Every roll I've had has lasted at least 4 hours, usually like 6 if I redose."

Agreed. but they have a very intense come up. Whats the cause?


"My goodness the point is that they WON'T feel it. If you added meth to a pill, you're going to get very cracked out and IMO, it's going to "kill the love", so to speak. Psuedoephedrine won't do that, but it IS a stimulant by itself, and it IS going to cause a difference to the high. You can't deny that... it causes a direct release of NE that, for the last time, causes light stimulation and may possibly enhance a roll's magic, considering that Norepinephrine is very important to MDMA's magic. "


You think if you add approx 30-40mG of Pseudo to a pill containing MDMA/MDA/METH it will enhance the rolls magic

I think it wont do anything. Hence why I am confused the Pseudo is there in the pill.

My next suggestion was to try it and see. A sudafed pill and E will answer the question.

Until that happens its a theoretical argument neither of us knows the true answer.

"My goodness"

If I might suggest we leave this point.
 
You think if you add approx 30-40mG of Pseudo to a pill containing MDMA/MDA/METH it will enhance the rolls magic
Click to expand...

The pill in question contained no methamphetamine, and I don't think it was added to the pill for it's effects. I think it was added to the pill because they needed a binder, and it was very, very easy for them to get it.... You're right, if you take sudaphed with a large dose of MDMA you're not going to feel it... so why else would they add it?

That's really not the point though, I showed that pill because if PE is the binder, that means that pill would contain 200mg of various MDxx... that's a fucking strong pill that will last a long time.




I do think that Dutch pills filled with visible crystals are going to come on faster than a pill with a low amount of MDMA, that's kind of obvious though... still then, crystal should technically come on the quickest.
 
"That's really not the point though, I showed that pill because if PE is the binder, that means that pill would contain 200mg of various MDxx... that's a fucking strong pill that will last a long time."

Pseudo is not used as a binder. Neither is caffeine. For it to be a binder it would have to have 'glue' like qualities to 'bind' the pill.


I was thinking about what you said adding the ratios of the pill vs the total weight.

According to the ecstasydata guidelines this doesnt tell you the mg contents of the pill. A straight MDMA pill for example pill weight 350mG MDMA ratio 1. no way is it 350mG MDMA in 2004.

but.. I worked out a few other pills using this method where by they either had pseudo or caffeine as a filler and sure enough the mG weights look plausable for standard pill doses.

Perhaps the labs around this time were using Caffeine and Pseudo to bypass the DEA restriction not to show pill doses.

if you use a weak active ingredient as your filler you can easily work out the doses using the tablet weight because ecstasydata will pick it up and publish it.

That makes more sense now for using the pseudo or caffeine as filler.

Once you have your ecstasydata report you have your quality control certification for dealing LOL.



"I do think that Dutch pills filled with visible crystals are going to come on faster than a pill with a low amount of MDMA, that's kind of obvious though... still then, crystal should technically come on the quickest. "

Crystal isnt relevant to this point.

Low dose pill say 50mG
High dose pill say 200mG
Same substance MDMA

From bassline to peak the time is the same for both pills.
We all agree on this i hope :-) You take half pill come up reach peak 45 mins, you take whole pill come up reach peak 45 mins.

Is the high dose pill come up more intense (or extreme)?

Is the high dose pill faster come up?

Theoretically the come up intensity should be the same. its the same substance.

Theoretically the come up speed should be the same. its the same substance.


What do you think the answer is to these two questions?
 
Is the high dose pill come up more intense (or extreme)?

Is the high dose pill faster come up?

Theoretically the come up intensity should be the same. its the same substance.

Theoretically the come up speed should be the same. its the same substance.
Click to expand...


You don't actually think that if you take 4 times the MDMA that the come up intensity would be the same, right lol? I hope I misunderstand you...


The 200mg of MDMA would obviously come up quicker and more intensely. For one, if you take 50mg pill, your stomach needs to digest the whole pill to get those 50mgs. If you take a 200mg pill, it only needs to get 1/4 of the way through the pill to get the same 50mg.. and it's not gonna stop after that lol



So, if both pills were dissolved at the same rate, the 200mg pill should technically come on 4 times as intense as the 50mg one. They would be dissolved at the same rate, but the fact that you need less of the pill to get the same effects would make the 200mg pill seem to come on faster than the 50mg, although you would be getting the full effect of both at any given time
 
Hello Folley

By the way this isnt an attempt to patroninse anyone im trying to get to a point addressing the issue about dutch super pills having fast come up and fast come down.

Please role with it i will get to the point i promise.


okay valid point about the digestion speed. accepted.

So say to illiminate that imagine its crushed pill powder 50mG and 200mG.


I agree with you the come up speed and intensity it is quicker. Totally correct.


If you focus on the speed of come up however.

Surely if the lower dose and the higher dose from bassline to peak its the same time period. say approx 45 mins.

How can the come up be any quicker for either dose?

Draw it out as a time vs peak graph. time on the horizontal, peak on the vertical.

Draw the come up cycles for both doses.

it cant be quicker surely as both doses come up in the same time period..
 
Say if 2 users take 2 pills... they are the same pills, except one has 50mg, and the second contains 200mg.


If you and I both take these pills at the same time, say 25 minutes later, 50% of the pill would have been dissolved. That makes my dose 25 mg, while yours is 100mg. A 25mg dose is hardly even a threshold dose, and you might not even feel it at all. 100mg however is very active, and half way through the pills digestion you're already going to be rolling.



Actually, the threshold is probably exactly why the second would seem to come on faster. If you reach the peak in 45 minutes, that means you reach the threshold dose in 5 minutes, 1/8 of the way through the pills digestion... while the 50mg pill would take 22 minutes to even reach the threshold..


Now, obviously that's not all correct. Your not going to start rolling in 5 minutes, the pill does have to make it's way to the stomach first.... but IMO that's a great explanation for why the two would seem to have different come up times
 
This is good cause im clearly making sense now :-)

We are now bang on with the point in hand.

Its easier if you imagine a 50mG crushed pill and a 200mG crushed pill otherwise pill break down comes into the mix and it diverts.

"If you and I both take these pills at the same time, say 25 minutes later, 50% of the pill would have been dissolved. That makes my dose 25 mg, while yours is 100mg. A 25mg dose is hardly even a threshold dose, and you might not even feel it at all."

Your right come ups dont work like this. (a linear scale)

"Now, obviously that's not all correct. Your not going to start rolling in 5 minutes, the pill does have to make it's way to the stomach first.... but IMO that's a great explanation for why the two would seem to have different come up times"

This is more like it.

But if we are now talking powder it enters the stomach at the same time.

Regardless of dose the powder will get digested at the same time (the stomach can easily break down 50mG or 200mG) all at once.

Regardless of dose the come up time from bassline to peak is still the same.

Ive experienced this with numerous frinds who have taken less dosage but we all come up at the same time.

If this is the case (which it is) then how can the higher dose have a faster comeup.


i must say once again this is not patronise or trick question its just a point..
 
futura2012 said:
If this is the case (which it is) then how can the higher dose have a faster comeup.
Click to expand...

I don't really think it's faster at all, just that you're able to notice one before the other. Technically the same percentage of two pills that are dissolved at any given time is going to be the same amount (50% at 22 minutes, 100% at 45... etc), but the doses that are going to be delivered are not the same.



One big factor in this is going to be the pills filler/binders though. Some are really chalky/powdery, and some are VERY waxy/gummy... although I normally only see piperazines as the super waxy pills... if I had to guess it's because they have shitty pill presses and need something to actually hold the pill together


Even if you took the pill as powder, the amount and consistency of the filler could hamper the rate with which the pill is dissolved..



Although I must say, I still don't see where you're going with this lol! I think we ought to start another thread on the differences between ALL types of MDMA, not just between the 90s and now.
 
The idea of this theory comes from the filler/binder topic we were just discussing.

It is my belief that the come up intensity more relates to dose than filler/binder.

The dose has a much much greater influence on come up speed and intensity than binder/filler by a zillion times.

but its really hard to explain as its got a kind of mathmatical angle.

I do appreciate what your saying this could get boring and off topic I will try one more time if you answer DROP IT. I will change the topic or shut up.



"I don't really think it's faster at all, just that you're able to notice one before the other. Technically the same percentage of two pills that are dissolved at any given time is going to be the same amount (50% at 22 minutes, 100% at 45... etc), but the doses that are going to be delivered are not the same."

It is faster your first answer was correct.

You reach peak at the same time. Same person same powder just different dose 50mG & 200mG.

if low dose person reaches 50mG fucked in 45 mins

and high dose person reaches 100mG fucked in 45 mins

Then clearly the 100mG fucked was quicker as they got more fucked in the same amount of time.

Its an illogical statement as the come up time is the same.

BUT .. the reason is mathmatical.

Its because they are getting fucked on the vertical axis of a logarithmic curve. Fucked Level against time.

The speed of come up when it fully kicks in is infinity.

A speed so fast it defeats time.

That is why dose is a massive player on perceived come up speed and intensity.

Its not just perception its a reality.

The filler or binder is not the issue its the dose.


Comedown speed is another topic but very different again.
 
I still don't understand really what this is pertaining too... if 90s pills were 200mg, and our pills today are 200mg, then I don't see why this matters...


I do think I get what you're saying, a higher dose will seem to come on a lot faster.. but we're all taking high enough doses here haha. As for the comedown speed, I'm not really sure about that. I mean, I can't see how it's even possible for a high dose to last 2 hours.... by then the MDMA has hardly even been metabolized into MDA...


Maybe they just go from sober to rolling balls so fast, that when they come down from their peak they think they are back to baseline even though the effects are still present. I don't know, I'm just debating for knowledge's sake at this point lol.



It is all rather interesting though.. all these things seem to be connected in someway. I've noticed that a lot with MDMA.. it's effects are so wide and diverse, so complicated... it really effects every nerve in your body. From the Vagus that controls the heart, stomach and nerve endings in the muscles (ever wonder why massages feel so good while rolling?), to affecting ever single neurotransmitter in some way..... MDMA is a damn interesting chemical.
 
I can't believe some of the responses. Some of you should be/could be chemists, scientists, etc. (unless some of you already are). Very intelligent people here that are asked very intelligent questions.
Major props from pops...:\
 
I have to interject on this one. Binder does play a pretty significant role here. We'll use a double drop of two, 165mg total pill weight Mints each containing 90mg of MDMA and one, 330mg total pill weight Red Defqon containing 180mg of MDMA for this example.

Same dose of the same active chemical in pills that equal eachother in total weight and have the same MDMA to filler ratios, but the Mints will punch you right in the junk 25 minutes sooner and with a greater intensity than the Defqon. Common sense right? The Defqon has more filler to digest through and in turn MDMA is entering your system at a much slower rate, relative to the Mint absorbsion. So when feeling the start of the effects of 180mg in 20 minutes and being fully blown on it drilling you all at once in 30 minutes from Mints, It's quite apparent when you have the same dosage of MDMA from a Defqon, that filler is a large factor when you start feeling it at 45 minutes and aren't fully blown until the 60-70 minute mark. If you were to cut a Defqon perfectly in half, would you feel it in 20 minutes like the Mint? No, because I've been there and taken half a Defqon. To me that takes the argument over to what exact substance is used as binder that will dissolve slower than the pill next to it?

Truth be told, my come-ups are more intense now than they were 10 years ago by a long shot. It's been made clear that pills today contain a higher content of MDMA than pills then. That makes sense, but feeling the drug rush your body with more stank to it because a higher concentration is flooding you than before, still does not take us back to the original point of this thread. It's the intensity and endurance of the loooooooove portion in the roll that has waned and no change in the dose amount or time/intensity of come-up can explain it, but all I'm doing is taking back around this circle we've been on.

On another note, I did create a '90s pill mock-up back in March this year. 150mg MDMA, 50mg MDA, and 15mg Meth all in one cap. My god that was a gnarly ass roll for us. The same argument held true for me though. The love was there and it was a mother fucker of a roll, but not what I know it to be. Not at that level.

Futura I do apologize. I know I'm not helping the scientific aspect of this you are pursuing. I don't take the time to deeply research this like you have. I will gladly contribute user experience as it deems itself fitting. Keep digging though. You've taken this leaps and bounds forward.
 
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Hello Blah

No apology needed. Whilst I sit here suffering from a long term comedown OCD and anxiety can sometimes cause one to get obsessed. Your post is valid and a good way to end this topic. We can revert back to fillers and binders as you have some valid points.

I will try and summarise as quick as possible.

The comment below triggered my thoughts along with a comment from george about 80mG oxys being much more intense than 30mG oxys.

toastmann said:
As a Dutch person, I can relate to this. These latest pills, like the Speaker, Defqon's and Triforces are indeed very, very good. Most hitting the 200mg mark, they are very clean and are really awesome. However, the duration is just crap.
I have yet to try it on a non-empty stomach, but one pill will give me a peak of 2 hours or so. From what I have understand, adding MDEA/MDA will significantly increase duration. So, why won't they do it ? I would be more happy to have a 100mg MDMA + 50mg MDA pill then one of 200mg MDMA. I mean, prices for these pills are ridiculously cheap. It's a steal. Why not make them somewhat more expensive, and add some MDEA/MDA ?
Click to expand...


One problem we face with this discussion is variables. To prove a theory you need to isolate all other variables.

Both the oxy issue as folley mentioned could be a time release coating/binder issue. The defqon be a down regulated 90s user issue. No offence toast man it might not be but my point here is variables can get in the way.

The last I will say about this is I think that the short lived issue with a defqon could well be dose related.

If you are coming up on a log curve and you come down on a linear scale then a high dose defqon will be a very rapid come up. You get very high very quickly so your reference to bassline is way out there. once you start to come down you come down hard as the linear curve is steeper than the curve of a lower dose.

I reckon this might have a part to play in it all. At this point a plan would be someone to try it. Same person takes 1 pill then 3 weeks later takes 1/2 same pill. What does it feel like? Is bigger dose more intense but shorter lived? Is smaller dose less intense but doesnt seem to be so short lived?

Unfortunately I cannot take E anymore but would be interested to hear an analytical user report on this theory.

Enough said... Sorry for my obsessive nature..

***************************************************************************

Over to blahs new point..

"I have to interject on this one. Binder does play a pretty significant role here. We'll use a double drop of two, 165mg total pill weight Mints each containing 90mg of MDMA and one, 330mg total pill weight Red Defqon containing 180mg of MDMA for this example."

Problem here I see straight away is there very well could be another variable. It is not a proven fact that a mint has the same type of mdma in it as a defqon.

If any of the previous discussion of chemistry, isomer, salt, crystalisation, synthesis routes has any validity then straight away we have a variable problem.

Isolating any particular cause is difficult.

Maybe for now we ASSUME that the MDMA is the same. (although i doubt it is)

"Same dose of the same active chemical in pills that equal eachother in total weight and have the same MDMA to filler ratios, but the Mints will punch you right in the junk 25 minutes sooner and with a greater intensity than the Defqon. Common sense right? The Defqon has more filler to digest through and in turn MDMA is entering your system at a much slower rate, relative to the Mint absorbsion."

If this is the case why does MDMA powder take 45 minutes to kick in and a mint hits you in 25 mins?

Do you have a lab analysis report for a mint? My immediate thought would be some type of amphetamine.

I dont think its filler. Should be an inert substance ie manitol sugar. Possible binder?

To reinforce the discussion at this point I wondered how is an actual Ecstasy Tablet made?


I have done a load of research

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excipient (LOADS OF INFO ABOUT GENERAL PILLS)

*snip* sources removed - please don't provide links to sources, including places to buy pill presses

POSSIBLE PILLS FROM DIES ABOVE

http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=17530 (BACARDI BAT)

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=978 (EVERGREEN)

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=271 (STAR OF DAVID)

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1483 (DOLLAR)

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2046 (MOON)

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1021 (SMILEY)

http://www.justice.gov/dea/major/candybox/pill_stamps.jpg (PILL DIES FROM CLANDESTINE LAB)

(POSSIBLE PILLS FROM DIES ABOVE)

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1103 STICKMAN

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1094 STICKMAN

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1219 BUTTERFLY

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1218 BUTTERFLY

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1091 BUTTERFLY

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1142 BUTTERFLY

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1178 CAMEL

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1191 MUSICAL NOTE

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1135 FOOT PRINT


Quote from phase_dancer (POSTS FROM THIS GUY ARE ALWAYS INFORMATIVE)

"As for excipients and binders. Sure some of these could be harmful. Others may not be harmful but certainly unappealing. PVA is reported to be commonly used in small scale pressing as it is apparently non-toxic.

The likelihood of a dodgy formulation is increased if the pressing was done in a back yard. Commercial tablet ingredients are used legally in large amounts so it's very likely some form of criminal diversion would supply many of the bigger players.

The bottom line is; if someone with the intent has a 10 ton + press and can machine and weld stainless, then a larger device could easily be constructed IMO.

The other commonly stated point concerns the ART of pill making. Even having the correct ingredients and a commercial press won't guarantee a quality product. In this respect it might be said pill making is similar to baking a pavlova."




Seems the binder can range from back street style 'PVA' to a completely pro product sourced from various online or street sources.

I guess PVA might be why we see crumbley poorly pressed pills. Maybe PVA is a good binder I dont know. Perhaps the defqon lab is using pro binders.

Although if you look at some of their work like the green lacoste the binding isnt brilliant.



So back to Blahs point does the binder affect the duration and come up speed?

My answer would be it has the potential too but its unlikely.

What I mean is you could make a pill loaded with some type of binder or coating that has slow release like the oxys. But I cant see why a clandestine chemist would do this.

How tightly pressed is the pill? Pressures seem to range from 15kN - 60kN + maybe the pressure of press has some effect but somehow I doubt it.

Once the pill hits the stomach it is broken down with Acids. What effect then the binder has against this acid I would assume not a great deal.

Drop a pill into a diluted acid and watch. After doing a bit of research online ph 7 is neutral.

Stomach seems to lie at about between ph 1 and ph 2. The data online is a bit conflicting but I am following a process of illimination and make an educated guess at this level. Stomach being between ph 1&2.

Thats pretty high. A pill dropped in a ph1-2 acid solution will dissolve fast. This is why MDMA powder comes up at the same time as a pill.

Personally I dont think the binder is a big influence.

Reading more about role of filler I dont think that has any influence at all.

Quite a lot of info here so look forward to comments on any of the above.
 
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I just read something that made me think of this thread.

I read a comment about putting MDMA powder in a drink.

User claimed it made a faster come up. I am interested to know thoughts on this also.

It would make sense but been a while since I took MDMA in this way. I dont know??
 
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