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How we rolled in the 90s when the pills were super strong
- Thread starter mark881
- Start date
georgewc2001
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2010
- Messages
- 535
Here we go with Folley again...I'm not going to debate anymore WHETHER their is a difference or not because there most certainly is. Furthermore, Folley, I did say I need to try Hollands pills to comment on them. I'm more concerned with WHY there is a difference.
For those on here who are reading the books posted by Folley, please be aware this is all he has to draw from being all of like 16 years old...nothing against 16 year olds, but a few years experience vs 20 yrs. makes your opinion on the WHETHER issue only so relevant to me, especially when you're trying to say there is no difference.
For those on here who are reading the books posted by Folley, please be aware this is all he has to draw from being all of like 16 years old...nothing against 16 year olds, but a few years experience vs 20 yrs. makes your opinion on the WHETHER issue only so relevant to me, especially when you're trying to say there is no difference.
futura2012
Bluelighter
hello mark and george
Do you think we could add the summary of perceived pill experience to:
technical factors
- amphet amount
- quality of MDMA crystal / crystal technique
- isomers
- salt type
- synthesis methods
- left over impurities
- MDA and MDMA combo (not forgetting MDEA)
- dosage
human factors
- pre loading techniques
- empty stomach
- fitness
- size / weight
- down regulation / total previous consumed
- amount of memory damage
- nostalgia
I think that just about covers everything discussed.
Although these are the factors it still doesnt isolate the factors from 90s to today.
Do you think we could add the summary of perceived pill experience to:
technical factors
- amphet amount
- quality of MDMA crystal / crystal technique
- isomers
- salt type
- synthesis methods
- left over impurities
- MDA and MDMA combo (not forgetting MDEA)
- dosage
human factors
- pre loading techniques
- empty stomach
- fitness
- size / weight
- down regulation / total previous consumed
- amount of memory damage
- nostalgia
I think that just about covers everything discussed.
Although these are the factors it still doesnt isolate the factors from 90s to today.
Folley
Bluelighter
lol I like how you can't come up with any relevant information of your own so you have to resort to attacking my credibility instead.
My Birthday is in a week anyways, I'm almost 17!!
No matter how young I may be, an entire year of hardcore research on MDMA has taught me more about the drug than what the experts at the DEA know. If you disagree with me, than come up with something to substantiate that. Otherwise you're just being stubborn and ignoring the facts.
For me, this is what I think it all comes down to:
Quality of MDMA (impurities left over depending on synthesis)
Adulterants (MDxx/amphetamine combos)
Dose (to a much lesser degree)
Down regulation due to previous abuse
and nostalgia of the good old days
That's just about everything that has caused a "change" from the pills then to the pills now.
Most of the "human factors" listed will change from every single roll to the next, so that can't really play into how pills in the 90s were different from now... at least IMO
Isomers just aren't changed that much, so that's probably not the case either. I feel kind of bad for starting this rumor because people don't seem to understand it's only going to happen if you take a lot of extra time to make it happen
As for the salts, I'm sorry Futura but I don't think one phosphate sample out of 600,000 HCL samples is enough to say that it's really ever happened except for a few isolated incidents
georgewc2001
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2010
- Messages
- 535
@Folley...not being stubborn, rather trying to be as objective as possible...why would i wanna keep spending money on mdma if it is in fact a long term tolerance issue?
@Futura...it's a concentration/quality issue that I'm sure stems from the sudden drop in precursor availability...ie cambodia clamping down on deforestation and China clamping down on precursor distribution for political reasons. By and large, pills today do not contain the amount of mdma that they used to and there is also not as much mda and amp being used.
Also, very important...there's no reason for improvement because as time goes on, less and less people know what a real strong pill feels like cause there's such a lack of them so why spend the extra money to make quality? The exception is Holland...why? They have test centers that force the pill makers to step it up or fuck off. Things will continue to deteriorate unless we get test centers too, which i doubt will ever happen.
It's not a tolerance issue. Time and again when I've taken the necessary time off and come back to rolling, I've been able to have just a great of experience as ever with the right pills/powder.
@Futura...it's a concentration/quality issue that I'm sure stems from the sudden drop in precursor availability...ie cambodia clamping down on deforestation and China clamping down on precursor distribution for political reasons. By and large, pills today do not contain the amount of mdma that they used to and there is also not as much mda and amp being used.
Also, very important...there's no reason for improvement because as time goes on, less and less people know what a real strong pill feels like cause there's such a lack of them so why spend the extra money to make quality? The exception is Holland...why? They have test centers that force the pill makers to step it up or fuck off. Things will continue to deteriorate unless we get test centers too, which i doubt will ever happen.
It's not a tolerance issue. Time and again when I've taken the necessary time off and come back to rolling, I've been able to have just a great of experience as ever with the right pills/powder.
Folley
Bluelighter
Down regulation doesn't go away. Ever. It's a permanent re-wiring of the brain caused by majorly excessive serotonin release.
You burned yourself out in the 90s... if you lost the magic in the 90s it's not going to just come back.
It's also sad when people don't realize that Dutch pills are like 5 clicks away lol... the "concentration" problem would really only apply to you getting the 15mg G Ladies from New York.. a lot of the rest of us are getting 150mg+ beans. I know I sure as hell don't have any problems rolling except not wanting it to end lol
Also, the strongest pill I saw from 1995-2005 on one of those testing sites was a 149mg pill... that's medium dosed in Holland lol. Most were 60-80mg during that time period.
Do tell. When were these pills going around? Are you sure they were 15mg? And do you know what part of New York? I used to live there.
Folley
Bluelighter
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=29155
and that's if you can actually find a G Lady that isn't filled with piperazines...
and that's if you can actually find a G Lady that isn't filled with piperazines...
futura2012
Bluelighter
I think keeping this topic objective is a good move otherwise it falls into a slagging match.
A total waste of time for everyone nothing to be learned.
Its a debate not an argument.. come on folks..
Folley
I accept your point about the 'human' influences not being relevant on the 90s pill topic.
I guess we are then saying the 90s theory is a 'generalisation' and cant be specific to one person right?
If we accept this theory we also have to accept down regulation, memory damage and user history as human influences right?
Otherwise you are saying everyone in the 90s is burnt out, lost the magic, has memory damage and has total down regulation.
This is clearly not a realistic argument.
On a technical note..
- amphet amount
- quality of MDMA crystal / crystal technique
- isomers
- salt type
- synthesis methods
- left over impurities
- MDA and MDMA combo (not forgetting MDEA)
- dosage
Folley your list reads
Quality of MDMA (impurities left over depending on synthesis)
Adulterants (MDxx/amphetamine combos)
Dose (to a much lesser degree)
Down regulation due to previous abuse
and nostalgia of the good old days
Quality, Synthesis and impurities are different influences so unsure why you have grouped them?
MDxx and Amphet grouped I agree is a valid point
Dose doesnt have a big influence on the effect of a pill?? do you mean that it has no relevance to pills of today? ie doses are the same? (why to a lesser degree)
You have written off:
Crystalisation
Salts
Isomers
SALTS
The link submitted its not a 1 phosphate salt out of 600,000 HCL pill test. You have misread the article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14640267
They state that there were 613 police cases involving a total of 123,776 tablets in 2001. Of which they randomly choose tablets and then examine them in a lot of detail. The purpose of the study is to try and trace synthetic routes by looking in detail at techniques and also impurities. The result is trying to track down source of manufacture this is why forensics go into so much more detail than the likes of ecstasydata.org etc.
They suggest that the finding of another salt type is intriguing. Ie they are fascinated by it just like we are. Why the difference? What is the purpose?
The salt theory I am not sure what else to say about it. You can see it in forensic tests, its discussed on MDMA manufacture sites, I have supplied links where there are entire journals about how different salt types in drugs have different effects on the human. They are simple to create as you just change the acid type from base to salt. Everything here suggests its a very likely theory to why one batch of MDMA might be different to another. I cant understand what evidence you are using to write this off as a possible cause.
There is so far no proof HCL is the only salt used 99.9% of the time. I see no evidence to support this.
We cannot write off alternative MDMA salts as a possible form of clandestine manufacture. Thus being a possible explaination to why MDMA pills might be different.
ISOMERS
The isomer theory is a not a new topic to this thread it has been discussed a lot. Its not just a rumor. The reason for this is that + & - isomers if mixed in other ratios other than 1:1 or isolated will cause a different buzz. You cant write this off as a possible cause. Its in Shulgins book, synthesised and documented. How is this a rumor?
I agree its a lot of hassle to do and is less likely than other theories but until we can prove it we dont know for sure this theory is a write off in clandestine techniques. The main focus again the Triforce/Speaker/Qdance/Squirrel lab of today. Why all pure MDMA but have different buzzes? still an unanswered question..
CRYSTALIZATION
The crystalisation theory is very real. Please refer to this link
http://cpb.pharm.or.jp/cpb/200005/c05_0646.pdf
The article starts out with the following statement:
"Crystal modifications significantly affect various pharmaceutical properties such as the solubility, dissolution rate, stability and bioavailability of drugs.1—3) As a consequence, the rational control of crystal growth, habit and polymorphic transition, using pharmaceutical additives, becomes an attractiveand intriguing area of drug research and development."
I cannot see how this is written off as not a possible influence on how MDMA effects someone either?
Picking up on this comment from George
"@Futura...it's a concentration/quality issue that I'm sure stems from the sudden drop in precursor availability...ie cambodia clamping down on deforestation and China clamping down on precursor distribution for political reasons. By and large, pills today do not contain the amount of mdma that they used to and there is also not as much mda and amp being used."
If we are talking shortage I assume you mean USA. Europe seems to have plenty of MDMA around.
I am not so sure about this George. I think the shortage in the States is a general clamp down on manufacturing not lack of precursor. Theres Ssafras in South America Also! All the efforts in hardware stores to report suspicious purchases such as Xylene, Acetone, Red Devil Lye etc, I think the awarness now of crystal meth labs has added a massive stigma to labs in the USA in general.
As I understand it the punishments are a lot harsher. The conspiracy laws seem so hard lined. If you are caught with a lab then they take all the precursors in your posession add them together and make an estimate on the labs 'potential' so you can actually be prosecuted for product that theoretically 'could exist'. This often leads to prison time 20 years plus.
This makes punishment for manufacture very very hard lined. The risks are massive.
They have also clamped down hugely on precursors, even ssafras oil is schedule 1 !! if you buy essentials in big quantities you are reported, owning lab glassware in some states such as texas is restricted. Its gone crazy crazy.
By doing this I think they have made the temptation to import RCs a much more realistic alternative. Its money driven for sure but I think its also risk analysis driven.
i would rather be caught importing BZP pills than a lab pushing out MDXX if I were in the USA thats for sure.
If you look at this link: (some 90s pills)
http://ecstasy.org/testing/index.html
then this link: (latest lab reports)
http://www.ecstasydata.org/search.p...ce=&m1=7&y1=2012&m2=8&y2=2012&state=&country=
The MDMA content in the average modern pill is higher.
Yes theres more RC / BZP nastyness around but the MDMA pills are higher content.
There was a lot of MDA/MDEA coctail in pills from the states in 2004 for some unknown reason? I suspect homemade pills as MDA is slightly easier to make.
Theres some METH around now but your right less amphet in pills. It seems the speed has been replaced by RCs. Probably the same arguments about manufacture vs import.
One theory I had:
The problem with the UK and Europe is we can only rely on Pill Reports with no lab analysis. I think pill reports is very good for harm reduction but seems to fall a bit flat once people are trying to figure out the details of adulterants.
This is maybe why now GOOD pills are just pure MDMA. a GOOD pill coctail seem a lot more rare.
I guess as we rely on pill reports more and more with phones in clubs etc the manufacturers are manufacturing to meet this change in the market.
An average good pill seems to be approx 120mG with no adulterant otherwise it fails the reagant tests which is then clearly displayed on pill reports and written off as a bad pill.
Just a thought... I am not sure how a reagent test performs with MDMA/MDA/MDEA combo I am sure others on here would know more.
folly
"It's also sad when people don't realize that Dutch pills are like 5 clicks away lol... the "concentration" problem would really only apply to you getting the 15mg G Ladies from New York.. a lot of the rest of us are getting 150mg+ beans. I know I sure as hell don't have any problems rolling except not wanting it to end lol"
Most of us do realise! including the cops and dea.
If your buying I hope you are using a PROXY to connect to the internet. Not just when your on TOR either!
Your IP will identify your home address and with this confession if your getting product sent to your house a letter arriving from Holland to your address is effectively pointing law enforcement to knock on your door.
That would be a lot more SAD in my opinion.
For this reason online purchases present a new risk to the user above and beyond your average street deal.
Pill letters are great until they get intercepted.
"http://www.pillreports.com/index.php..._pill&id=29155
I had these last month and trip dropped and had a great time. It's annoying though having to take that many! 15-20mg per is my guess on these fellas
and that's if you can actually find a G Lady that isn't filled with piperazines... "
Come on Pill Reports for mG quantity?? You cant be serious?
There are no measurement facts from this. Its a great harm reduction site but all the quantities listed have no validity to them unless they accompany a lab analysis link.
"Also, the strongest pill I saw from 1995-2005 on one of those testing sites was a 149mg pill... that's medium dosed in Holland lol. Most were 60-80mg during that time period. "
Best I found was this one in 2011
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2328
Now thats a dose!! Its a great debate topic cause when you see a pill like this and the one you describe you could argue that quality pills now are actually better than the 90s....
Dose higher, cleaner and purer you could say better??
A total waste of time for everyone nothing to be learned.
Its a debate not an argument.. come on folks..
Folley
I accept your point about the 'human' influences not being relevant on the 90s pill topic.
I guess we are then saying the 90s theory is a 'generalisation' and cant be specific to one person right?
If we accept this theory we also have to accept down regulation, memory damage and user history as human influences right?
Otherwise you are saying everyone in the 90s is burnt out, lost the magic, has memory damage and has total down regulation.
This is clearly not a realistic argument.
On a technical note..
- amphet amount
- quality of MDMA crystal / crystal technique
- isomers
- salt type
- synthesis methods
- left over impurities
- MDA and MDMA combo (not forgetting MDEA)
- dosage
Folley your list reads
Quality of MDMA (impurities left over depending on synthesis)
Adulterants (MDxx/amphetamine combos)
Dose (to a much lesser degree)
Down regulation due to previous abuse
and nostalgia of the good old days
Quality, Synthesis and impurities are different influences so unsure why you have grouped them?
MDxx and Amphet grouped I agree is a valid point
Dose doesnt have a big influence on the effect of a pill?? do you mean that it has no relevance to pills of today? ie doses are the same? (why to a lesser degree)
You have written off:
Crystalisation
Salts
Isomers
SALTS
The link submitted its not a 1 phosphate salt out of 600,000 HCL pill test. You have misread the article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14640267
They state that there were 613 police cases involving a total of 123,776 tablets in 2001. Of which they randomly choose tablets and then examine them in a lot of detail. The purpose of the study is to try and trace synthetic routes by looking in detail at techniques and also impurities. The result is trying to track down source of manufacture this is why forensics go into so much more detail than the likes of ecstasydata.org etc.
They suggest that the finding of another salt type is intriguing. Ie they are fascinated by it just like we are. Why the difference? What is the purpose?
The salt theory I am not sure what else to say about it. You can see it in forensic tests, its discussed on MDMA manufacture sites, I have supplied links where there are entire journals about how different salt types in drugs have different effects on the human. They are simple to create as you just change the acid type from base to salt. Everything here suggests its a very likely theory to why one batch of MDMA might be different to another. I cant understand what evidence you are using to write this off as a possible cause.
There is so far no proof HCL is the only salt used 99.9% of the time. I see no evidence to support this.
We cannot write off alternative MDMA salts as a possible form of clandestine manufacture. Thus being a possible explaination to why MDMA pills might be different.
ISOMERS
The isomer theory is a not a new topic to this thread it has been discussed a lot. Its not just a rumor. The reason for this is that + & - isomers if mixed in other ratios other than 1:1 or isolated will cause a different buzz. You cant write this off as a possible cause. Its in Shulgins book, synthesised and documented. How is this a rumor?
I agree its a lot of hassle to do and is less likely than other theories but until we can prove it we dont know for sure this theory is a write off in clandestine techniques. The main focus again the Triforce/Speaker/Qdance/Squirrel lab of today. Why all pure MDMA but have different buzzes? still an unanswered question..
CRYSTALIZATION
The crystalisation theory is very real. Please refer to this link
http://cpb.pharm.or.jp/cpb/200005/c05_0646.pdf
The article starts out with the following statement:
"Crystal modifications significantly affect various pharmaceutical properties such as the solubility, dissolution rate, stability and bioavailability of drugs.1—3) As a consequence, the rational control of crystal growth, habit and polymorphic transition, using pharmaceutical additives, becomes an attractiveand intriguing area of drug research and development."
I cannot see how this is written off as not a possible influence on how MDMA effects someone either?
Picking up on this comment from George
"@Futura...it's a concentration/quality issue that I'm sure stems from the sudden drop in precursor availability...ie cambodia clamping down on deforestation and China clamping down on precursor distribution for political reasons. By and large, pills today do not contain the amount of mdma that they used to and there is also not as much mda and amp being used."
If we are talking shortage I assume you mean USA. Europe seems to have plenty of MDMA around.
I am not so sure about this George. I think the shortage in the States is a general clamp down on manufacturing not lack of precursor. Theres Ssafras in South America Also! All the efforts in hardware stores to report suspicious purchases such as Xylene, Acetone, Red Devil Lye etc, I think the awarness now of crystal meth labs has added a massive stigma to labs in the USA in general.
As I understand it the punishments are a lot harsher. The conspiracy laws seem so hard lined. If you are caught with a lab then they take all the precursors in your posession add them together and make an estimate on the labs 'potential' so you can actually be prosecuted for product that theoretically 'could exist'. This often leads to prison time 20 years plus.
This makes punishment for manufacture very very hard lined. The risks are massive.
They have also clamped down hugely on precursors, even ssafras oil is schedule 1 !! if you buy essentials in big quantities you are reported, owning lab glassware in some states such as texas is restricted. Its gone crazy crazy.
By doing this I think they have made the temptation to import RCs a much more realistic alternative. Its money driven for sure but I think its also risk analysis driven.
i would rather be caught importing BZP pills than a lab pushing out MDXX if I were in the USA thats for sure.
If you look at this link: (some 90s pills)
http://ecstasy.org/testing/index.html
then this link: (latest lab reports)
http://www.ecstasydata.org/search.p...ce=&m1=7&y1=2012&m2=8&y2=2012&state=&country=
The MDMA content in the average modern pill is higher.
Yes theres more RC / BZP nastyness around but the MDMA pills are higher content.
There was a lot of MDA/MDEA coctail in pills from the states in 2004 for some unknown reason? I suspect homemade pills as MDA is slightly easier to make.
Theres some METH around now but your right less amphet in pills. It seems the speed has been replaced by RCs. Probably the same arguments about manufacture vs import.
One theory I had:
The problem with the UK and Europe is we can only rely on Pill Reports with no lab analysis. I think pill reports is very good for harm reduction but seems to fall a bit flat once people are trying to figure out the details of adulterants.
This is maybe why now GOOD pills are just pure MDMA. a GOOD pill coctail seem a lot more rare.
I guess as we rely on pill reports more and more with phones in clubs etc the manufacturers are manufacturing to meet this change in the market.
An average good pill seems to be approx 120mG with no adulterant otherwise it fails the reagant tests which is then clearly displayed on pill reports and written off as a bad pill.
Just a thought... I am not sure how a reagent test performs with MDMA/MDA/MDEA combo I am sure others on here would know more.
folly
"It's also sad when people don't realize that Dutch pills are like 5 clicks away lol... the "concentration" problem would really only apply to you getting the 15mg G Ladies from New York.. a lot of the rest of us are getting 150mg+ beans. I know I sure as hell don't have any problems rolling except not wanting it to end lol"
Most of us do realise! including the cops and dea.
If your buying I hope you are using a PROXY to connect to the internet. Not just when your on TOR either!
Your IP will identify your home address and with this confession if your getting product sent to your house a letter arriving from Holland to your address is effectively pointing law enforcement to knock on your door.
That would be a lot more SAD in my opinion.
For this reason online purchases present a new risk to the user above and beyond your average street deal.
Pill letters are great until they get intercepted.
"http://www.pillreports.com/index.php..._pill&id=29155
I had these last month and trip dropped and had a great time. It's annoying though having to take that many! 15-20mg per is my guess on these fellas
and that's if you can actually find a G Lady that isn't filled with piperazines... "
Come on Pill Reports for mG quantity?? You cant be serious?
There are no measurement facts from this. Its a great harm reduction site but all the quantities listed have no validity to them unless they accompany a lab analysis link.
"Also, the strongest pill I saw from 1995-2005 on one of those testing sites was a 149mg pill... that's medium dosed in Holland lol. Most were 60-80mg during that time period. "
Best I found was this one in 2011
http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2328
Now thats a dose!! Its a great debate topic cause when you see a pill like this and the one you describe you could argue that quality pills now are actually better than the 90s....
Dose higher, cleaner and purer you could say better??
Folley
Bluelighter
That's a lot to respond too lol... and I'm kind of really fucked up, but I'll try to do my best here.
I do see down regulation effecting every user... at least here. Most have admitted to abusing the drug at some point in their life... and even if they say they haven't, serotonin levels naturally decline over the years anyways.
They're fascinated by it because all the other samples they're testing are MDMA hydrochloride..
As for isomers, I don't think that's changed really over the years. Everyone (for the most part) makes racemix MDMA, that's what we've all come to know and love. There may be some highly skilled Dutch labs making mixed ratio pills, but they are probably it. I really doubt anyone in the 90's was doing the same thing.. they we're all making combo pills. But today that would be an "adulterated" pill... so the Dutch pressers in competition has to try and make an MDMA only pill that's better than the rest.
It may not give us a 100% accurate estimate, but it shows you that those pills are VERY low dosed... like the majority of American pills. He even backed my low balling claim of 15mg lol
They are all connected directly though. A different synthesis will lead to different impurities which could lead to a different perceived high.. and the synthesis is directly related to the quality in that if you are sloppier you will have more impurities...
Maybe that's why the stuff of the 90's was different, all the chemists were making less pure stuff than the professional Dutch chemists who can make 99.8% pure MDMA HCL
I do see down regulation effecting every user... at least here. Most have admitted to abusing the drug at some point in their life... and even if they say they haven't, serotonin levels naturally decline over the years anyways.
They're fascinated by it because all the other samples they're testing are MDMA hydrochloride..
As for isomers, I don't think that's changed really over the years. Everyone (for the most part) makes racemix MDMA, that's what we've all come to know and love. There may be some highly skilled Dutch labs making mixed ratio pills, but they are probably it. I really doubt anyone in the 90's was doing the same thing.. they we're all making combo pills. But today that would be an "adulterated" pill... so the Dutch pressers in competition has to try and make an MDMA only pill that's better than the rest.
It may not give us a 100% accurate estimate, but it shows you that those pills are VERY low dosed... like the majority of American pills. He even backed my low balling claim of 15mg lol
They are all connected directly though. A different synthesis will lead to different impurities which could lead to a different perceived high.. and the synthesis is directly related to the quality in that if you are sloppier you will have more impurities...
Maybe that's why the stuff of the 90's was different, all the chemists were making less pure stuff than the professional Dutch chemists who can make 99.8% pure MDMA HCL
futura2012
Bluelighter
"I do see down regulation effecting every user... at least here. Most have admitted to abusing the drug at some point in their life... and even if they say they haven't, serotonin levels naturally decline over the years anyways."
Yes thats a valid point. I guess we are all fucked up in some way. Its not the only reason for this thread but it does play a factor for sure.
"They're fascinated by it because all the other samples they're testing are MDMA hydrochloride."
Correct they are but it proves other salts are out there on the street thats the point. Lab analysis on this level is few and far between. The majority of forensic work is not published in this way. This is an unusual article to get published.
Here is the full report. Very relevant to this discussion infact:
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_48/iss_6/JFS2002426_486.pdf
Interesting that when they are discussing the Phosphate Salt it can exist with MDMA in three ionization forms so theoretically this could produce three additional types of MDMA high!!
"Unlike MDMA hydrochloride, which has only one formulation (i.e., [HMDMA]Cl), a triple-charged phosphate anion can exist in three ionization forms, namely PO4 3, HPO4 2, or H2PO4 . Thus, three phosphate salt formulations of MDMA: (HMDMA)3PO4 (2),(HMDMA)2HPO4 (3), and (HMDMA)H2PO4 (4) are possible."
Crazy!!
"It may not give us a 100% accurate estimate, but it shows you that those pills are VERY low dosed... like the majority of American pills. He even backed my low balling claim of 15mg lol"
I think to rely on this source for mG quantities might be +/- 50mG something like that even then very dubious.
However, I think pill reports is an invaluable source and with good pictures, accurate reagent test, half readable write up you can gain very important harm reduction info from it. The user comments also reinforce the write up as well.
But.. I dont think we can use it too well to prove a point about a pills exact strength or coctail based contents.
It can be riddled with very inexperienced users.
Quality, Synthesis and impurities are different influences so unsure why you have grouped them?
"They are all connected directly though. A different synthesis will lead to different impurities which could lead to a different perceived high.. and the synthesis is directly related to the quality in that if you are sloppier you will have more impurities..."
Theres always a pair linked in some way I suppose. I guess a technicallity. Were on the same page here. For me seperating them out makes more sense but its a 50/50 debate. Nuf said..
"Maybe that's why the stuff of the 90's was different, all the chemists were making less pure stuff than the professional Dutch chemists who can make 99.8% pure MDMA HCL "
Dont you mean 84% pure or 83.8% to be precise. LOL
I reckon the purity and strength right now is massively dictated by the defqon clandestine lab. The majority of high strength pills now are being knocked out by them.
I also think the availability of pill reports on mobile phones and reagent tests also stops chemists from adding adulterants as the reagent tests struggle with coctails and produce bogus findings. Even a small amount of speed in a decent MDMA pill could fool the user into thinking pipes.
With availability of information these days the motives to produce adulterated pills is a lot smaller. People are getting wiser. MDMA high dose seems to be the objective these days.
In my next post below im going to add some new current lab reports I found. The defqon lab are responsible for the green lacoste which as far as I can see is the highest strength Ecstasy Tablet to be recorded.
It adds an interesting angle to the debate as in many ways this shows modern pills in terms of dose quantity to exceed the lab reports of the 90s by far.
However, mark makes an interesting point about the pills mainly being super kick ass 1990 -1995 perhaps the doves, snowballs, rhubarb & custards were equally as strong then.
If only we could find some kind of report or lab analysis of one of these babies.
Think someone might find one in a cupboard and could send it to ecstasydata.org to finally conclude this thread.
"That's a lot to respond too lol... and I'm kind of really fucked up, but I'll try to do my best here."
Good show my friend. A fine effort of debate if I may say so..
Lab Stuff Below
if anyone knows of any other source for lab reports please link up.
Yes thats a valid point. I guess we are all fucked up in some way. Its not the only reason for this thread but it does play a factor for sure.
"They're fascinated by it because all the other samples they're testing are MDMA hydrochloride."
Correct they are but it proves other salts are out there on the street thats the point. Lab analysis on this level is few and far between. The majority of forensic work is not published in this way. This is an unusual article to get published.
Here is the full report. Very relevant to this discussion infact:
http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_48/iss_6/JFS2002426_486.pdf
Interesting that when they are discussing the Phosphate Salt it can exist with MDMA in three ionization forms so theoretically this could produce three additional types of MDMA high!!
"Unlike MDMA hydrochloride, which has only one formulation (i.e., [HMDMA]Cl), a triple-charged phosphate anion can exist in three ionization forms, namely PO4 3, HPO4 2, or H2PO4 . Thus, three phosphate salt formulations of MDMA: (HMDMA)3PO4 (2),(HMDMA)2HPO4 (3), and (HMDMA)H2PO4 (4) are possible."
Crazy!!
"It may not give us a 100% accurate estimate, but it shows you that those pills are VERY low dosed... like the majority of American pills. He even backed my low balling claim of 15mg lol"
I think to rely on this source for mG quantities might be +/- 50mG something like that even then very dubious.
However, I think pill reports is an invaluable source and with good pictures, accurate reagent test, half readable write up you can gain very important harm reduction info from it. The user comments also reinforce the write up as well.
But.. I dont think we can use it too well to prove a point about a pills exact strength or coctail based contents.
It can be riddled with very inexperienced users.
Quality, Synthesis and impurities are different influences so unsure why you have grouped them?
"They are all connected directly though. A different synthesis will lead to different impurities which could lead to a different perceived high.. and the synthesis is directly related to the quality in that if you are sloppier you will have more impurities..."
Theres always a pair linked in some way I suppose. I guess a technicallity. Were on the same page here. For me seperating them out makes more sense but its a 50/50 debate. Nuf said..
"Maybe that's why the stuff of the 90's was different, all the chemists were making less pure stuff than the professional Dutch chemists who can make 99.8% pure MDMA HCL "
Dont you mean 84% pure or 83.8% to be precise. LOL
I reckon the purity and strength right now is massively dictated by the defqon clandestine lab. The majority of high strength pills now are being knocked out by them.
I also think the availability of pill reports on mobile phones and reagent tests also stops chemists from adding adulterants as the reagent tests struggle with coctails and produce bogus findings. Even a small amount of speed in a decent MDMA pill could fool the user into thinking pipes.
With availability of information these days the motives to produce adulterated pills is a lot smaller. People are getting wiser. MDMA high dose seems to be the objective these days.
In my next post below im going to add some new current lab reports I found. The defqon lab are responsible for the green lacoste which as far as I can see is the highest strength Ecstasy Tablet to be recorded.
It adds an interesting angle to the debate as in many ways this shows modern pills in terms of dose quantity to exceed the lab reports of the 90s by far.
However, mark makes an interesting point about the pills mainly being super kick ass 1990 -1995 perhaps the doves, snowballs, rhubarb & custards were equally as strong then.
If only we could find some kind of report or lab analysis of one of these babies.
Think someone might find one in a cupboard and could send it to ecstasydata.org to finally conclude this thread.
"That's a lot to respond too lol... and I'm kind of really fucked up, but I'll try to do my best here."
Good show my friend. A fine effort of debate if I may say so..
Lab Stuff Below
if anyone knows of any other source for lab reports please link up.
futura2012
Bluelighter
A few more Lab Analysis reports to add to the 90s Pills debate:
MDMA Pills in Europe Stacking A lot of MDMA
And the MDMA dose winners are. The DIVINE & GREEN LACOSTE both are offerings from the famous Defqon Lab.
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_NovemberB_2011.pdf
LACOSTE, AHORN and DC10 all from Defqon Lab doses a bit lower this time.
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_Hoch_Sept_2011(1).pdf
THE FAMOUS BLUE NIKE 152.4mG
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_Mai_2011(1).pdf
Other MDMA pills with reasonably high doses.
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Aug_2012_1.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Aug_2012_2.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/i...arnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA-Hoch_August_2012_l.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Juli_2012.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Juni_2012A.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_Hoch_Mai_2012_2.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Mai_2012_1.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_April_2012b.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Feb_2012.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_Jan_2012b.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_Dez_2011_B.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_Okt_2011(1).pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_August_2011.pdf
2012 MDEA COMBO 90s Style
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/i...gen_PDF_2012/Pillen_mit_MDMA_MDEA_Coffein.pdf
2012 AMPHETAMINE COMBO 90s Style (low dose of amphet however)(less amphet in my book is good)
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/i...PDF_2012/XTC_Amphetamin_Coffein_Juni_2012.pdf
2011 MDEA + CAFFEINE PILL
http://www.saferparty.ch/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDEA_Dez_2011.pdf
There is still a lack of 90s style coctails.
But this confirms if you know your source a 150mG MDMA pill these days is getting quite easy to find.
Wow that defqon lab seem to dominate the E scene these days..
MDMA Pills in Europe Stacking A lot of MDMA
And the MDMA dose winners are. The DIVINE & GREEN LACOSTE both are offerings from the famous Defqon Lab.
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_NovemberB_2011.pdf
LACOSTE, AHORN and DC10 all from Defqon Lab doses a bit lower this time.
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_Hoch_Sept_2011(1).pdf
THE FAMOUS BLUE NIKE 152.4mG
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_Mai_2011(1).pdf
Other MDMA pills with reasonably high doses.
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Aug_2012_1.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Aug_2012_2.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/i...arnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA-Hoch_August_2012_l.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Juli_2012.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Juni_2012A.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_Hoch_Mai_2012_2.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Mai_2012_1.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_April_2012b.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen_PDF_2012/MDMA_hoch_Feb_2012.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/images/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_Jan_2012b.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_Dez_2011_B.pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_Okt_2011(1).pdf
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDMA_hoch_August_2011.pdf
2012 MDEA COMBO 90s Style
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/i...gen_PDF_2012/Pillen_mit_MDMA_MDEA_Coffein.pdf
2012 AMPHETAMINE COMBO 90s Style (low dose of amphet however)(less amphet in my book is good)
http://www.saferparty.ch/tl_files/i...PDF_2012/XTC_Amphetamin_Coffein_Juni_2012.pdf
2011 MDEA + CAFFEINE PILL
http://www.saferparty.ch/download/file/Warnungen PDF 2011/MDEA_Dez_2011.pdf
There is still a lack of 90s style coctails.
But this confirms if you know your source a 150mG MDMA pill these days is getting quite easy to find.
Wow that defqon lab seem to dominate the E scene these days..
georgewc2001
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2010
- Messages
- 535
@folley...I have had plenty of magic since the 90s so you're wrong about me being burnt out
Folley
Bluelighter
Just for the record, the strongest pills aren't the Lactoses...
They are these:
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=29703
250mg Bombs lol... don't think there was ever actually a lab test but everyone agreed they are at least close to that amount
^ My last roll was a 5 hour orgasm... I still won't ever be able to get a roll like I could even 2 years ago
They are these:
http://www.pillreports.com/index.php?page=display_pill&id=29703
250mg Bombs lol... don't think there was ever actually a lab test but everyone agreed they are at least close to that amount
^ My last roll was a 5 hour orgasm... I still won't ever be able to get a roll like I could even 2 years ago
Hapomen22
Bluelighter
Interesting add Futura2012, looks like most tabs nowadays are just clean MDMA if you know where to look (Mainly in Europe). Also it's most probably the only country out there that test the contents of the pills so manufacturers need to step up their quality to reach the standards. Looks like they don't accept anything bellow 120mg.
futura2012
Bluelighter
Yeah its crazy hapo. I think the defqon lab is a big player on this higher dose trend. Since the doses went up the prices went up I noticed. People will happily pay £10 for one of these decent tabs compared to the 3 for a tenner concept of a few years ago. Personally I like the idea of a clean high dose pill you know exactly where you stand with it. literally LOL.
Interesting link to the bomb pill Folly.
As its pill reports I have to see a lab report to beleive it. its clearly strong but how strong is it in mG??
Interesting comment from this user:
Posted on June 18, 2012, 9:19 pm GMT by mdasnowball91 (member since July 8, 2011)
I don´t know why they put so much binder in them and press with so low pressure. the original snowballs had 200 mg mda and where 3x4 ultrahard press. the bombs look not very professional.
The terminology here sounds like they actually know what their on about. 200mG MDA would explain a thing or too about a snowball. I am not sure if I would personally like a 200mG hit of MDA. Totally tripped out for sure.
A snowball is a hard one as its basically a large blank white pill. How do we spot the original? Anyone know the answer?
Been Hammering the Research Tonight!!
Here is a great Link that is invaluable to this debate
THE ANALYSIS OF ECSTASY TABLETS
IN A FORENSIC DRUG INTELLIGENCE PERSPECTIVE
http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/esc/shared/These_Zingg.pdf
Its a full on read but I will post anything relevant and interesting.
SO I FINALLY FOUND SOME DECENT 90s REPORTS!!
1995 - 1996
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_95_96.pdf
1997
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_97.pdf
1998
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_98.pdf
1999
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_99.pdf
2000
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_mm.pdf
There is no doubt now the average quality of pill here seems better compared to a 2012 pill analysis report.
Theres loads more combo pills
Theres loads more capsule pills
I have also been reading a lot more about synthesis.
Piperonal has a big part to play in 90s pills. It was a lot easier available in the early 90s and if you have it therefore it influences the type of synthetic routes you choose.
Using Piperonal you can make a one step synthesis to MDA.
You can also use Piperonal to make Amphetamine easily.
This is a major reason why in the 90s these substances were more easily available for adulterants.
I am still reading about MDEA but I suspect Piperonal also had a big influence.
I will post more info as I get it.
Theres definitely something in this now. Its not a rumor any longer. The statistics say it all for me.
If you can find any more 90s lab reports please link up.
Interesting link to the bomb pill Folly.
As its pill reports I have to see a lab report to beleive it. its clearly strong but how strong is it in mG??
Interesting comment from this user:
Posted on June 18, 2012, 9:19 pm GMT by mdasnowball91 (member since July 8, 2011)
I don´t know why they put so much binder in them and press with so low pressure. the original snowballs had 200 mg mda and where 3x4 ultrahard press. the bombs look not very professional.
The terminology here sounds like they actually know what their on about. 200mG MDA would explain a thing or too about a snowball. I am not sure if I would personally like a 200mG hit of MDA. Totally tripped out for sure.
A snowball is a hard one as its basically a large blank white pill. How do we spot the original? Anyone know the answer?
Been Hammering the Research Tonight!!
Here is a great Link that is invaluable to this debate
THE ANALYSIS OF ECSTASY TABLETS
IN A FORENSIC DRUG INTELLIGENCE PERSPECTIVE
http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/esc/shared/These_Zingg.pdf
Its a full on read but I will post anything relevant and interesting.
SO I FINALLY FOUND SOME DECENT 90s REPORTS!!
1995 - 1996
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_95_96.pdf
1997
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_97.pdf
1998
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_98.pdf
1999
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_99.pdf
2000
http://www.eve-rave.net/abfahrer/download/eve-rave/ecstasy_pillen_mm.pdf
There is no doubt now the average quality of pill here seems better compared to a 2012 pill analysis report.
Theres loads more combo pills
Theres loads more capsule pills
I have also been reading a lot more about synthesis.
Piperonal has a big part to play in 90s pills. It was a lot easier available in the early 90s and if you have it therefore it influences the type of synthetic routes you choose.
Using Piperonal you can make a one step synthesis to MDA.
You can also use Piperonal to make Amphetamine easily.
This is a major reason why in the 90s these substances were more easily available for adulterants.
I am still reading about MDEA but I suspect Piperonal also had a big influence.
I will post more info as I get it.
Theres definitely something in this now. Its not a rumor any longer. The statistics say it all for me.
If you can find any more 90s lab reports please link up.
Last edited:
Folley
Bluelighter
That makes a lot of sense about why there aren't as many combo pills going around.
But I'm pretty sure you can synthesize safrole into piperonal anyways..
I still don't think that if you obtained some MDMA, MDA and amphetamine that you couldn't make basically the same feeling pill. But of course an MDMA only won't feel as good as a crazy ass combination.. hell I know MDMA and MDA together seems 10 times more "magical" than MDMA... add some speed if you're into that and I would imagine that you would be very fucked up... and with that neurotoxic of a combination I imagine you would burn out faster as well
futura2012
Bluelighter
"But I'm pretty sure you can synthesize safrole into piperonal anyways.."
You are absolutely correct but if you are a clandestine lab you wouldnt fuck around doing this.
Although safrole is a precursor of piperonal an industrial lab will do this synth a lot more efficiently than a clandestine.
If you had safrole you would do a several step synthesis to MDMA. You wouldnt bother making Piperonal.
Piperonal is used in the perfume industry. In the early 90s it was an innocent chemical. This was a big influence of pills in the 90s.
If you have piperonal its easier to make MDA than with safrole fact..
If you have piperonal its easy to make Amphet fact..
Piperonal was a big influence in pills of the 90s fact..
Theres a new method out there now from Helional another essential oil to MDA but thats another story LOL.
You are absolutely correct but if you are a clandestine lab you wouldnt fuck around doing this.
Although safrole is a precursor of piperonal an industrial lab will do this synth a lot more efficiently than a clandestine.
If you had safrole you would do a several step synthesis to MDMA. You wouldnt bother making Piperonal.
Piperonal is used in the perfume industry. In the early 90s it was an innocent chemical. This was a big influence of pills in the 90s.
If you have piperonal its easier to make MDA than with safrole fact..
If you have piperonal its easy to make Amphet fact..
Piperonal was a big influence in pills of the 90s fact..
Theres a new method out there now from Helional another essential oil to MDA but thats another story LOL.
