Reconsidering the no recommendations rule.

[sekio]

I think responses to these compounds are too subjective - there are just too many variables to consider.
That said, almost every compound has writeups in P/TiHKAL and Erowid's exp vaults (subjective experience)for the layman, and many of them have whitepapers on their relative affinity for various targets & absorbtion in animals (sometimes man too) - i.e. peer reviewed biochemical research. I don't see why PD needs to turn into a public "witch doctor" board, and I also don't see a lot of people conducting receptor assays in ADD!

Leave the recommendations to the people themselves.

Maybe a compromise is noting compounds that many people generally find uncomfortable/"good" in one thread. But only broad generalizations, like shulgin's magic 5 or whatever, and noting that e.g. 5-meo-amt is generally regarded as sucking.

 

[Survived Abortion]

Okay then, put it this way: if your mum came to you and told you they were wanted to take a psychedelic, but wanted to know your opinion on which one they should start with given their circumstances, are you going to turn round and say "Sorry. Go and check Erowid and decide for yourself"? What if this was your son or daughter?

It's alright to palm someone off with the rulebook when it's just another faceless username from some unknown area of the globe asking questions about drugs. But really, these are human beings too, and with the application of a bit of common sense, such questions can easily be answered without it becoming complicated.

This hasn't got anything to do with "encouraging someone to use a drug". The person has already decided they are going to use a drug no matter what you tell them. The only thing you can do is help them choose the best/safest one for their requirements in light of their naivety.

I also think the idea of an "ideal psychedelic" form for those who can't make up their minds could be a great idea. If the community psychedelic phenomenology database project had not been abandoned, we'd already be more than halfway there by now. It just needs a database of users opinions on doses and specific effects and outcomes of various psychedelics, and then a form or app can be created whereby a user inputs the variables relating to what they are seeking, and outputs a psychedelic drug suited to their needs. This should never replace live human input and discussion on the forums though. It would simply be a great tool to have.

To me, generating a lively discussion and debate about it when someone asks is the best way we have of helping people cut through the crap and make the decisions themselves. The fact that people can cross-reference their ideas and opinions with one another in one thread makes it far more useful for someone who is undecided about what they want to take than a bunch of completely separated trip reports.

I'm not even arguing to change the current rules (which are sensible), just the way they are enforced.

 

[sekio]

If I was recommending psychedelics to people I knew, I'd have no problem with it. But recommending drugs to random people on the internet won't always work so well.

A lot of drugs fall into the paradigm where "some people like it and some people don't", and it's not always easy to determine ahead of time, with little information, what drug would best suit the person in question. Not to mention the drug you think is best may be inaccessible to johnny Greenlighter who wants to do a psychedelic for his first time.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Okay then, put it this way: if your mum came to you and told you they were wanted to take a psychedelic, but wanted to know your opinion on which one they should start with given their circumstances, are you going to turn round and say "Sorry. Go and check Erowid and decide for yourself"? What if this was your son or daughter?

Yes, I would tell them to go and do their own research. They better know their shit backwards and forwards before I give them my blessing for going forward. I mean, I'd at least expect them to have a basic familiarity with the classics, and then to extensively research whatever compounds they're capable of purchasing on their own and to have a selected one or two already before I'd consider weighing in with my opinions. And if we're talking people I don't know, my input would be limited to answering informed questions they ask about a given compound, or closely related group of compounds.

This isn't like recommending somebody a cigar or strain of herb based off their preferences. Psychs have a learning curve, and folks need to familiarize themselves with the basics, and then look at individual compounds, or broader threads (like our Most....psychedelic threads*, among others) to get a an inkling for the kinds of experiences out there. Then they can decide.

*Section V of the index

 

[B9]

I've got a feeling that anyone who asks which psychedelic they should take on a drugs forum will likely go with the poster who a) suggests a drug they have access to and b) they feel they have the most affinity with.
By and large it's best to go with substances at doses, which are considered by the majority of people, to be more easily handled in a psychological sense.
In some ways it's likely more useful to guide people toward optimum set & setting & dosage than simply suggesting they consume a particular drug based upon their preference..

 

[bluedolphin]

This rule has never been so heavily enforced (well, maybe under the reign of one or two mods over the years.. lol) that it really blocked reasonable discussion.

I do have a problem with "What should I take that's like this?" threads. That being, most respondants lack the broad experience to adequately answer the question. People who just started experimenting with psychedelics and the ones they've done they just ordered off the internet are not qualified to answer the question. People who have taken a lot of mushrooms and acid but not much else are not qualified to answer the question.

I am qualified to answer the question, however .. and the current PD mods are also qualified so a lot of the time it's best when they answer the question to the best of their abilities and close the thread before everyone starts chiming in with their drug of choice.

When people inquire about dosing, I like to aim low. I've had my share of heroic-type trips but in general I find the Erowid doses to be accurate. The problem here is some people have high tolerances, or honestly might be idiots, and recommend people take 2x-3x what a proper starting dose should be.

...

Regarding the chart with community ratings. If this were to go into effect I'd like to see psychedelics graded upon several different metrics. As some are easier on the body but more useless for the mind and spirit, vice versa, and etcetera. Some have other unwanted side effects but may be worth it for many. Some are simply rather dangerous.

 

[Survived Abortion]

Yes, I would tell them to go and do their own research. They better know their shit backwards and forwards before I give them my blessing for going forward.

Good for you. I'm glad your'e not my parent or sibling though. If my sister came to me and said she wanted to trip and wanted to know what compound to start with, I would happily give her the advice and recommendations she needs. I would also tell her where she can research similar compounds online, definitely, but I wouldn't leave her with only that avenue. Especially if she just wants to roll balls this weekend and wants to know the best thing in light of the circumstances surrounding the situation.

She wants somebody with real experience listening to her needs as they suit her right now. Telling her to go and study Erowid and not to come back until she "knew her shit backwards and forwards" would be a fucking cop out. And if I told everyone who asks to go away and "know their shit backwards and forwards" before asking anymore questions, then I'd probably end up with no friends, and nobody would ever ask my advice on anything ever again.

What does that mean anyway. How can you get to a point where you "know your shit backwards and forwards" just by reading a bunch of trip reports and pharmacological data on Erowid? It's meaningless to most beginners. Not only that, but at what stage have they imbibed enough information that they meet your requirements of knowing their shit (backwards and forwards)? It's not as if Erowid or the Big and Dandy bluelight threads come with some kind of government certification of quality and authenticity of the information contained within them.

(Not to mention, way to take the joy, fun, and spontaneity out of such an event.) 8(

This is not to say that people shouldn't do their research before they embark on trying out new compounds. On the contrary, I emphatically advise people to do that too, even family members; it's important to get as much of the facts as possible. But I'm not going to just leave them to academia to try and answer their needs - people want to hear from others with experience now, and they will never be satisfied just going off and reading some faceless person's reports from 5 years ago and then jumping headlong in to a drug trip without anyone to shoot the shit with about it.

In fact, I'll bet my granny most of us here have taken suggestions or recommendations from friends or others about one or more of the drugs you have tried in the past (and maybe even from people online). I also bet most of us have given similar recommedations to friends, family, or people online. My first MDMA experience was suggested and overseen by a family member, and I am extremely grateful that they did suggest it too. I probably wouldn't have bothered if wasn't for that person, which would have been an incredible waste.

This isn't like recommending somebody a cigar or strain of herb based off their preferences. Psychs have a learning curve, and folks need to familiarize themselves with the basics, and then look at individual compounds, or broader threads (like our Most....psychedelic threads*, among others) to get a an inkling for the kinds of experiences out there. Then they can decide.

*Section V of the index

And who said it was like recommending a cigar? (I wouldn't do that anyway, since smoking life-sucking chemical-laced tobacco is a horrible thing to suggest to anyone at any time.) As I said, I do condone researching your drugs before you partake. But that doesn't exclude all else.

I've got a feeling that anyone who asks which psychedelic they should take on a drugs forum will likely go with the poster who a) suggests a drug they have access to and b) they feel they have the most affinity with.
By and large it's best to go with substances at doses, which are considered by the majority of people, to be more easily handled in a psychological sense.
In some ways it's likely more useful to guide people toward optimum set & setting & dosage than simply suggesting they consume a particular drug based upon their preference..

Fully agreed.

i kinda like sekios idea of having a chart of psychedelics with "community rating". like 1 to 5 stars for each compound and every person can rate once on each substance. there will still be a subjective margin, but also you'll quickly see what's considered as bunk and what ppl tend to mostly have a good time with.

maybe someone can code such chart/list with some poll tool that gets integrated in the forum somewhere.
could go more detailled too (suggested starting dose for firsttimers, setting advices, suggested ROAs for beginners) and where exactly at this "looking for an easy to handle yet visual but rather medium length trip... aah here we go 4-ho-met seems to match my criteria" - list.

also the list/chart could have a poll option if you think that the rated substance is something for beginners and the list will eventually filter out everything, that's not beginner material (2cp, 5-meo-dmt,datura) and gets a warning icon next to it

Yes, this is sort of like what I suggested, except that what I suggested takes your requirements and circumstances in to account and outputs the most suitable choice. A community pool of concise information geared towards helping people make informed decisions is a very good idea, and if it can be integrated in to an automated application it could be extremely useful. But I'll say it again, it's still doesn't completely replace the need for people to discuss their requirements with others.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Yes, this is sort of like what I suggested, except that what I suggested takes your requirements and circumstances in to account and outputs the most suitable choice. A community pool of concise information geared towards helping people make informed decisions is a very good idea, and if it can be integrated in to an automated application it could be extremely useful. But I'll say it again, it's still doesn't completely replace the need for people to discuss their requirements with others.

So essentially you want to bring back Xork's Psychedelic Effects profile survey, and consolidate the information into a recommend me a drug chart/quiz/choose-your-own-adventure book?

You can always ask around to see who has the data, and take on the project yourself. It's like they say, if you want something done right...

 

[The Winner!!]

Could someone PM me and give me some insight on 2c-b and 2c-c? I've done mushrooms quite a lot aswell as lsd, dxm, ketamine and mdma- i've been interested in these rc's for awhile maybe someone who has some good knowledge on them could talk to me about it? Like i've researched them as in i've read erowid, big and dandy threads- was hoping someone could PM me and give me some more personal information though

 

[username840]

Hi. I closed that thread. Some things stay open longer than they should.

We've had a rule for a while that there should be no what should I take threads. This rule is in place for a couple reasons, some of which I remember and some which I don't, but a big part of it is we don't want vendors advertising their compounds here and distorting the truth to make the things they sell seem valuable. Since we can't really enforce a bluelight-approved Truth -- that shit is for communists -- we just ban drug recommendations altogether.

However I do see some potential benefit in the recommendations given specifically to novices, under the auspice that good information can be hard to come by and some things are either unsafe (5-IT) or just not first-time material (2C-P). Luckily in the brave new world of RCs the light trips are the best sellers and you probably won't do too bad by putting all the popular stuff on a Twister mat and beheading a chicken.

With that said... I'm open to the possibility of some sort of first-time guide thread or even sticky with possibly a few drug recommendations. I'm not closing your post, I'm stickying it, and changing the subject:

Should we allow recommendations for first-timers? What sort? Your opinions and suggestions will be ignored, burned, and used as body paint at the next bluelight moderator orgy.

when a beginner asks what they should take, the thread should not be closed. information SHOULD be exchanged. this is a harm-reduction site, how are we reducing harm by closing threads to people who CLEARLY need information? i don't think they intend to ask, "what drug should i use..." however, that is how their myrid of inquiry becomes confused through a language and text-type shorthand, but seriously their inquiries should be tended to. otherwise you are perpetuating ignorance and an unlearned future of users, opposed to educated and responsible adults able to my choices for themselves. one cannot make a choice without knowledge to know a choice can even be made.

perhaps instead of deleting the moderator could, as with any other general inquiry... offer PERSONAL anecdotal information, urging that it is of that nature, and maybe direct he or she to some credible sources with further anecdotal or otherwise scientific information...? i think this would def encourage others responding to do the same.

at this point, the "newbie," to psychedelics, then becomes at least somewhat informed and then may be able to later ask more educated questions. shutting people down in harm reduction forums leads them to ask their friends with no moderators and no interjections or cited sources or worst-yet, their drug dealers who will push anything even through deception!!! (or simply depressed, confused, and full of unanswered questions.)

 

[Okami]

Since we can't really enforce a bluelight-approved Truth -- that shit is for communists -- we just ban drug recommendations altogether.

As someone who I presume regularly ingests chemicals that the mass media, public opinion and law claim to tun you into diseased schizophrenic criminals with no sense of what is right and wrong, you should know that not everything you hear is necessarily accurate or true. Communism is not synonymous with toltalitarinism. Ideologically communist countries weren't as crazy and authoritarian as they're made out to be by public opinion (My entire family comes from the soviet block so they know). Certainly not significantly more so than America in the times of McCarthy and the steralization programmes. And just like America it peaked in the 50s and got progressively more liberal after Stalin died. Sorry about being of topic, but I felt it needed to be said.

 

[any major dude]

I've thought about it quite a bit and have to say I'm for the status quo. It doesn't seem as if much or anything would be gained by changing the rules. I think it would only increase the amount of clutter threads. People can ask almost any question they like about any drug or class of drugs in the B&D threads & usually get it answered in a reasonable amount of time. Yes sometimes there is flaming & shaming from some members when someone asks something that can be answered with < 30sec on google or wikipedia. But such is the nature of the internet. If one's living in an industrialized area, its best to go ahead & learn how to effectively use the internet for information gathering purposes. When i close threads for this purpose (or almost any purpose really) i always try to leave something instructional about how to acquire the information they're looking for.

Another reason i would prefer not to change the rule is regarding the nature of harm reduction. Many "what should i take/buy" type questions do not explicitly state that they are definitely going to take a drug. In that case you are very specifically encouraging someone to take a drug, & that is not harm reduction. Generally BlueLight is here to help people use the drugs they have safely. We in no way facilitate the acquisition of drugs. That would be illegal & probably get the forum shut down. Encouraging someone to procure a specific substance starts to make that line a little blurry, & IMO that's a bad thing, in addition to not being HR. Telling a first-time tripper not to use 2c-p or take a ridiculous dose of what have you is definitely harm reduction, b/c that is not encouraging drug use, in fact quite the opposite. Lastly, and i'm not 100% on this, but it seems as if there could potentially be some legal issue if someone were to procure & ingest a substance based on a recommendation. More likely civil than criminal (stranger suits have been brought here in the US.), but even so that's a can of worms i'm sure we'd all rather not have opened.

Furthermore such threads are incredible troll bait. There's quite frequently someone making a ridiculous recommendation for shits & giggles. That could easily stick around long enough for someone to read it & act on it before a mod gets to it. Thankfully there are usually plenty of members to catch such things, but if there were tons of such threads, maybe not. There's no way to ensure someone will clarify. We're all people with limited time & we don't always see, let alone click on, every thread.

The most effective route to reducing harm is making users more informed so that they can make educated decisions without their hand being held throughout the process. The process of learning about all these obscure drugs & eventually how to procure them was a somewhat lengthy but well worthwhile process for me. If someone had just told me the answers to a couple quick questions i had i would be much knowledge poorer for it. One has to learn how to parse out what information will be more useful for them on their own. You just can't tell someone critical thinking.

I'm all for helping people, that's why i'm here, and we can do (and have done) assloads of that without altering the recommendations rule. Between the Beginners Thread & the quality & substance specific threads i don't see how one can't easily procure the info they need already. It only takes giving the rules a brief once over & having a modicum of respect for the rules/forum to ask questions that are perfectly ok & within the realm of harm reduction.

I'm not against making the B&D Beginners Thread a sticky, that would probably be a good idea just because newbs will be inherently unfamiliar with the format & that may help. I feel like it would be difficult to provide someone with better advice than A.) Identify Substance B.) Research Wikipedia, Erowid, & ask some questions in the appropriate threads here. If they have access to a range of substances i feel they should do that for each one, and not encouraging that could well be doing them a disservice as they could potentially miss something that appeals more to them individually.

In regards to making drug recommendations to people i know personally, that is a completely different animal. If someone knows me well enough to know my depth of knowledge on the subject then we're almost definitely pretty close so i know all sorts of things about that person that could inform my decision. This just simply isn't true via the web. There's no way i can know how someone i've never communicated with before will react to a given chemical. Its tricky enough when i know a person quite well. And even then my estimation may not always be accurate. The way psychedelics alter consciousness is intensely variable & all sorts of factors from genetics, to current mood & location, to diet, as well as myriad others, can play a very significant role in how someone will react to a given substance.

And regarding the immediacy concern, if one can't have their needs met, as it suits them, in the moment by strangers over the internet, C'est dommage. Obviously such interactions are different in person and/or with friends & family, and again in that regard, the info in the above paragraph applies again. These are inherently different situations and trying to equate them is a bit of a false equivalency. We want to do the best we can in what is a somewhat impersonal format. I genuinely feel that offering more or less blind recommendations for specific substances to people we've never communicated with before is not the best we can do. Of course we can point them in the right direction towards the information they need to make the best decision they can, but making that decision for them isn't doing anyone any favors. Short of that, its usually permissible with the rules as they are.

 

[Mu-ham-mad]

I recommend DMT (smoked).

 

[SKL]

When we originally set this out as a hard and fast rule, it went together with the prohibition on substance ID threads, which are inherently dangerous as it's an awfully hard thing to do to tell someone what kind of mushroom or Ecstasy pill, or anything else, by virtue of a description or even a picture. This should be obvious. And the truth is, IMO anyway, that a "what should I take thread" is, on similar grounds, dangerous and something which had ought to be beyond the purview of this forum, for many of the reasons stated above. We don't really know what an individual is planning on taking (only perhaps what they think they are planning on taking), nor do we know the details of their life situation, state of mind and mental health, and so on. It is a mightily subjective thing, and also lends itself too easily towards evangelism for one's favorite compounds. This should not be the business of a forum like this, but rather, answering concrete and well-thought ought questions.

 

[any major dude]

Agreed SKL. Also, good to see you around these parts

 

[HollyNerd]

I think there's a reasonable amount of information online on most substances. It's a depending kind of thing and the situation for there is good reason to ban it.

 

[PepperSocks]

All that does is force people to read a bunch of dead static posts from the past and try to come to a conclusion based on what someone else wanted at that point in time. On the contrary, the best education should be alive and dynamic, not stuck gathering cyber-dust in the halls of archives.

Actually I found that a good way to go about it when I started. I think reading Erowid is going to do someone much more good than reading 50 random BL posts that popped up that day, a lot of which could be bad advice from people without much experience.

I would hazard a guess that most first time trippers are not going to even spend hours upon hours reading through trip reports or Big and Dandy threads to find the information they need. I know I certainly don't have the time to trawl through such information these days; I just want the information upfront, and provided by people who are listening to me and my needs right now.

eek, now there's a badly impulsive way to have your first trips. I think people that bother coming online at all looking for information, are willing to do a bit of the work themselves, they just need a nudge. Letting them get spoon-fed a bunch of opinions in a self-centered, personalized thread isn't what we're about.

Older BLers like to tell newbies to UTFSE, but what's the point of even having an active board anyway if all anyone should ever do is use the search engine or go on Erowid. I'm here on BL to provide advice to others, as well as learn from others, but if everything has already been said then why not just close the forums and shut up shop. The reason is because people want to talk about what's happening now, not then.

After you've UTFSE'd and you need more information (especially regarding which psychedelic has which type of signature; done to death), bump a certain thread, or make one if the rare occasion calls for it. UTFSE'ing is the best way to get your info, and saves forum regulars (the one's with the better type of advice) from feeling like broken records, and unlikely to respond. (I've caught myself in that before, reading a question I had an answer to but I was sick of answering it so often, I left no reply).

I've got a feeling that anyone who asks which psychedelic they should take on a drugs forum will likely go with the poster who a) suggests a drug they have access to and b) they feel they have the most affinity with.
By and large it's best to go with substances at doses, which are considered by the majority of people, to be more easily handled in a psychological sense.
In some ways it's likely more useful to guide people toward optimum set & setting & dosage than simply suggesting they consume a particular drug based upon their preference..

Bingo, which is what the B&D first-time/beginner thread(s) are all about.

Honestly I think the best resource for new trippers is Erowid because it's not a moshpit full of everyone and their dog's opinion (to a point). Erowid is stable, everything on it is reviewed before it is posted and it's a conglomeration of good/bad/deep/shallow reports. It's a much better place to make an informed decision when starting out. To me BL was for the obscure compounds that didn't have much information on Erowid, or some nuance that I needed an experienced person's response.

Basically I'd say keep it the way it is. 'What should I take?' threads were always so self-centered and often had downright bad advice thrown out by someone on a whim. Close, direct to proper B&D thread or Erowid, as has always been done.