Reconsidering the no recommendations rule.

[Survived Abortion]

I spent time typing up and editing a reply to the thread mentioned in the title, and then it got closed before I had chance to post it. So screw it, I'm going to post it here. I don't see why it should have been closed either; there are many similar threads passing through PD all the time which mods leave open. I feel it's a perfectly valid question to ask for general suggestions regarding psychedelics for beginner trippers.

I love euphoria, nothing to out of this world yet, i like still being on earth. Happiness, bright sunny day times 10 kind of thing.

It felt like DXM is quite powerful honestly

I dont like uncomfortable either.

snip

~atara

 

[atara]

Hi. I closed that thread. Some things stay open longer than they should.

We've had a rule for a while that there should be no what should I take threads. This rule is in place for a couple reasons, some of which I remember and some which I don't, but a big part of it is we don't want vendors advertising their compounds here and distorting the truth to make the things they sell seem valuable. Since we can't really enforce a bluelight-approved Truth -- that shit is for communists -- we just ban drug recommendations altogether.

However I do see some potential benefit in the recommendations given specifically to novices, under the auspice that good information can be hard to come by and some things are either unsafe (5-IT) or just not first-time material (2C-P). Luckily in the brave new world of RCs the light trips are the best sellers and you probably won't do too bad by putting all the popular stuff on a Twister mat and beheading a chicken.

With that said... I'm open to the possibility of some sort of first-time guide thread or even sticky with possibly a few drug recommendations. I'm not closing your post, I'm stickying it, and changing the subject:

Should we allow recommendations for first-timers? What sort? Your opinions and suggestions will be ignored, burned, and used as body paint at the next bluelight moderator orgy.

 

[Splitz]

Personally I think things should stay as they are.

For example, most people would say that 2C-B is an example of a good beginner's trip, but I've seen someone take just over threshold dose and start to throw themselves down stairs.

There really isn't anything that guarantees a good experience and there's no reason why any psychedelic drug would be a bad first choice... the issue isn't the drug but whether a person is suited to the psychedelic experience in the first place.

I can see the danger here being a bunch of curious beginners seeing a nice list of things that are supposedly recommended for them that then kick their arse.

 

[Cycik]

Any psychedelic has the chance to make first timers do some stupid things. It's the dosage that matters and that's what should be told to beginners. A dosage guide maybe? Then again some psyches have different characteristics eg shrooms seems to be more anxious and unpredictable where acid is quite reliable imo.

tl;dr Everyone reacts differently so dosage is most important.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

I can see value in allowing suggestions for psychedelic Virgins, as long as it is dually noted that everything effects everyone differently. Seems like bl would be a decent place to obtain suggestions regarding this, as here there are enough intelligent and experienced trippers to balance and refine any given suggestions.

Certainly beats someone taking a fleeting suggestion given by the neighbourhood druggie lol...here at least there is a pool of input to balance itself...whereas crackhead Joe may be very adamant about suggesting one compound based only on his own experience with it...here we are nerds quite versed in the"scene", or at least aware of the general trends in effect experienced by a various users of a given compound...not exactly th kind of expertise you find "on the street" lol

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

So you're saying we need a Big & Dandy Beginner Psychedelic thread?

 

[Jesusgreen]

So you're saying we need a Big & Dandy Beginner Psychedelic thread?

^ This. The thing we're against is people asking "Which psychedelic is best?" or "Which psychedelic should I take next?" - but we've always allowed threads that cater to specific needs.

When it comes to the most friendly psychedelic, or the most visual psychedelic - certain psychedelics are naturally better than others, so it's understandable that people can offer advice.

When it comes to the "best" psychedelic for example though, everyone's opinion differs because everyone reacts uniquely and wants something different from the experience.

The only way we could extend the current discussion rules without people making blind unsubstantiated suggestions that might not fit would be if we had a sort of "Help me find the Psychedelic I'm looking for" thread, where people would put in a detailed description of exactly what they want from the psychedelic experience, level of visuals, kind of visuals, kind of headspace - if there's a particular reason they want the trip, or a particular setting etc - and people could give a recommendation of a substance that fits, along with a description of why.

It'd have to be policed heavier than other threads though so we don't get a flood of "What's the coolest trip??" and a million random useless suggestions.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

The only way we could extend the current discussion rules without people making blind unsubstantiated suggestions that might not fit would be if we had a sort of "Help me find the Psychedelic I'm looking for" thread, where people would put in a detailed description of exactly what they want from the psychedelic experience, level of visuals, kind of visuals, kind of headspace - if there's a particular reason they want the trip, or a particular setting etc - and people could give a recommendation of a substance that fits, along with a description of why.

It'd have to be policed heavier than other threads though so we don't get a flood of "What's the coolest trip??" and a million random useless suggestions.

Good ideas man! I'm picturing an elaborate flow chart Depicting the various aspects of the psychedelic experience...like visuals, yes or no, mind fuck, etc...ultimately leading one to the perfect psychedelic for their taste ha.

The chart could only develop after much discussion of course, but hey it'd be cool I think...erowid worthy even maybe...

 

[JBrandon]

I say just sticky the beginners big and dandy thread.

There is certainly some HR value to dissuading a beginner from getting in over their head but it is complicated. Obviously it probably isn't a good idea for a first time trip to be a 30 hour DOB marathon, but when you get to the less extreme areas of the spectrum it becomes more muddled... For example do you tell someone DMT is a good first psych because it is over so fast, or does the intensity of the experience outweigh the benefit of the short duration?

There is no real way to answer those type of debates conclusively. If we open up to recommendations I suspect we'll be flooded with a million "what should I try next" threads that will devolve into arguments of opinion.

Jesusgreen has a great idea but the amount of debate and contention that would go into such a project is daunting.

 

[Survived Abortion]

However I do see some potential benefit in the recommendations given specifically to novices, under the auspice that good information can be hard to come by and some things are either unsafe (5-IT) or just not first-time material (2C-P).

This is how I feel about it too. I feel that simply reading a few reports on Erowid is not enough; potential trippers need interactive contact with living, breathing, experienced people in order to get the most relevant advice possible. After all, the information is constantly changing and being updated on various substances as we learn more. There is so much data to go through on all these compounds, and it can be intimidating for a first-time user to try and workout which compound, at what dose, with which ROA are the best for their needs.

Whenever I mention the name of an RC to someone who is not in the know, they look at me like I'm from the planet Mars. Most people don't even know what a tryptamine is, let alone the difference between 4-AcO-DiPT and 5-MeO-DMT.

I would much rather know that somebody took their first steps in psychedelic territory with safe advice tailored to their needs, than see them go off and screw it up and then come back with a horror story.

Personally I think things should stay as they are.

For example, most people would say that 2C-B is an example of a good beginner's trip, but I've seen someone take just over threshold dose and start to throw themselves down stairs.

There really isn't anything that guarantees a good experience and there's no reason why any psychedelic drug would be a bad first choice... the issue isn't the drug but whether a person is suited to the psychedelic experience in the first place.

I can see the danger here being a bunch of curious beginners seeing a nice list of things that are supposedly recommended for them that then kick their arse.

Well look, there are always going to be some bad experiences had with any drug, but it's not going to be because somebody recommended them a certain compound, it's because it just simply happens. You will never stop this.

Moreover, such incidents are not going to be mitigated by preventing people from having live discussions about their requirements on boards such as this. All that does is force people to read a bunch of dead static posts from the past and try to come to a conclusion based on what someone else wanted at that point in time. On the contrary, the best education should be alive and dynamic, not stuck gathering cyber-dust in the halls of archives.

I would hazard a guess that most first time trippers are not going to even spend hours upon hours reading through trip reports or Big and Dandy threads to find the information they need. I know I certainly don't have the time to trawl through such information these days; I just want the information upfront, and provided by people who are listening to me and my needs right now.

Older BLers like to tell newbies to UTFSE, but what's the point of even having an active board anyway if all anyone should ever do is use the search engine or go on Erowid. I'm here on BL to provide advice to others, as well as learn from others, but if everything has already been said then why not just close the forums and shut up shop. The reason is because people want to talk about what's happening now, not then.

 

[kingme]

while ive not read through all the replies here, im also of the opinion of maintaining things as they are.

for one thing, there are plenty of big and dandy threads meant for beginners. they are already under a big sign on the first page of BL PD. not easy to miss. there are also threads for various "most visual/psychedelic/easy/spiritual" drug out there. there is a lot of varied information there that beginners should explore, and not be given a simple streight answer, as there is no simple straight answer that fits everybody. in the end, drug taking is a risk one should consider alone, and selfishly, as it is each ones' health and safety that is put on the line.

second, the rule is all over BL. brekaing this rule on this subforum will mean it will have to be broken eveywhere. including some subforums dealing with much harsher substances, which might lead to a slippery slope situation.

third, i believe new comers and beginners should be encouraged to read up, and no be lead to a substance. it is the way i started and the way i felt most comfortable. it is also the safest thing to do, and no feel guilty if somehtign goes wrong, heaven help us eh.

forth, there are always ways for beginners to ask questions directly and for advice in PMs, which is probably a lot safer than asking a bunch of people on a forum, if they do desire a personal opinion of someone they respect on the forum. if ever someone asks for a question fast, they will most likely get a fast answer, not necesarily the best.


most importantly, i think the WIKI should get more attention, as i see it a sort of concentrated knowledge gained through the work, experience and reports on people on BL.

i think we should grow by building and structuring information, not by braking the laws that have maintained a sense of order so far.

 

[sekio]

The only way we could extend the current discussion rules without people making blind unsubstantiated suggestions that might not fit would be if we had a sort of "Help me find the Psychedelic I'm looking for" thread, where people would put in a detailed description of exactly what they want from the psychedelic experience

I like this idea.

But the problem I have always had with recommending psychedelics is that the person doing the reccomendation should try to be as unbiased as possible, which is near impossible. For instance someone who has had a series of bad acid trips but has had nothing but groovy vibes on mushrooms would be predisposed towards a positive description of 'shrooms and a negative or neutral description of LSD.

There's also the simple fact that everyone responds differently. Some people have increibly vivid visuals, others get unique sensory changes, and some get nothing but confusion and bright colors.

I guess you'd just have to make the descriptions a collaborative thing. I'm for the idea personally, but I like keeping it to one thread.

Perhaps it would be best to make a Beginners and Psychedelics subforum where all the basic FAQ's and basic questions could go? "What psychedelic is for me?" "What's HPPD?" "How do I stop tripping?"

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Good ideas man! I'm picturing an elaborate flow chart Depicting the various aspects of the psychedelic experience...like visuals, yes or no, mind fuck, etc...ultimately leading one to the perfect psychedelic for their taste ha.

The chart could only develop after much discussion of course, but hey it'd be cool I think...erowid worthy even maybe...

Check out section VII of the PD Index, while it's not a chart, it should interest you very much. (actually download the stuff)

 

[Cyanoide]

dont forget to include a detailed psychological profile, as well as current blood plasma levels, tolerance and subjective threshold levels to certain substances and it will all lead to one end: screw this chart.

everything is so highly subjective with psychedelics that harm reduction is the best you can and you should do.

havent you all had recommendations from friends or even out a forum that were totally not what you expected or got recommended? maybe even a disaster? so what should a more lose recommendation rule do? nothing. in the end, it's everyone on his own feet learning to walk. best you can do is to guarantee he's not on a slippery surface, ie. harm reduction.

I agree that just about everything including psychedelics is highly subjective. An example would be DPT which I consider to be one of the most serious (in lack of a better word), if not the most serious and deep psychedelic compound there is. However some members have the completely opposite opinion and view it as a highly manageable psychedelic. The problem arises if a first timer is to use, say DPT. One member says yes, it's an easy going psychedelic, good for beginners. But we have no idea how the psychedelic novice is going to react to the said compound. If the experience is even remotely like the experiences I've had, I really feel sorry for the first-time user. It's probably the first and last time he/she ever touches a psychedelic.

That said, there are however some psychedelics that are almost unanimously agreed upon. No one would recommend DMT or 5-MeO-DMT to someone who've never touched psychedelics. It's far easier to recommend what not to take. What more experienced psychonauts can and should do is encouraging to do independent research, read trip reports, browse Erowid etc. It's a bit too much to demand that every single page of PiHKAL and TiHKAL should be read before touching anything (it would be good if someone actually puts so much effort into the first trip though), but not everything should be served on a plate. Besides, we have threads dedicated to just about every available psychedelic that exists. If the user is asking about a certain compound, we can redirect him/her to the thread. They are anyway just as free as anyone on this forum to ask about the qualities of a certain compound, although admittedly they will get quite different responses. In a way this is an important lesson to learn too for the novice; psychedelics affect us differently, much more so than any other type of drug.

 

[huolesoh]

^ yes i must agree with ' a better idea to advise what not to take '
i think if you recommend something to someone, it makes them less responsible for themselves, and i don't think this is such a good thing
however, perhaps i am simply the cautious type - i just don't want to be responsible for anyone else, because i have a gnawing constant worry of ' what if i'm wrong '

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

Check out section VII of the PD Index, while it's not a chart, it should interest you very much. (actually download the stuff)

Thanks for that, despite my yearslong allegiance to bl I was unaware of this index at all lol. Those files look sweet, but can't view yet as I'm on a mobile device. Downloaded, will check out when I'm back home.

 

[jsky]

*snip*

~Never

 

[Survived Abortion]

dont forget to include a detailed psychological profile, as well as current blood plasma levels, tolerance and subjective threshold levels to certain substances and it will all lead to one end: screw this chart.

everything is so highly subjective with psychedelics that harm reduction is the best you can and you should do.

havent you all had recommendations from friends or even out a forum that were totally not what you expected or got recommended? maybe even a disaster? so what should a more lose recommendation rule do? nothing. in the end, it's everyone on his own feet learning to walk. best you can do is to guarantee he's not on a slippery surface, ie. harm reduction.

How is it any different from dosage recommendations, or routes of administration, which occur in ubiquity here and can be found on every page of virtually every main thread? In fact, dosage recommendations are far worse if you are going to be fascist about it. It should be painfully obvious to anyone paying attention that people vary dramtically in their sensitivity to psychedelic compounds, and the dosages some people recommend as a "moderate" dose for a certain compound can be almost overdose for another.

Recommending different types of compounds doesn't carry this danger because we know within reason that pretty much all the compounds we are discussing have a safe dosage zone, or "therapeutic" margin, though it may vary from individual to individual. There is this reassurance at least. Recommending different dosages of compounds is far more reckless because we are no longer being impartial to that zone of safety, we are distorting it in our recommendations with personal bias.

Not that I think we shouldn't allow dosage recommendations either, I'm just pointing out the absurdity of yours and other's arguments.

everything is so highly subjective with psychedelics that harm reduction is the best you can and you should do.

Sure everything's subjective, but that is what we discuss on bluelight - subjective shit. One piece of subjective shit is no safer than another piece of subjective shit. You're not gonna save people from having bad experiences with drugs by sitting there anally tight lipped refusing to pass on potentially valuable information which they will never get from morons on the street. At least there are experienced people here who can save newbies the trouble of wasting their time blindly feeling their way through trial and error in face of the snot-noses who would seemingly refuse to give up their self-righteousness to make an informed recommendation.

People are bending and breaking the rules all the time. It's just ridiculous to pick one or two threads every month and penalize them for breaking the rules whilst blatantly letting other threads with similar or worse "infractions" slide.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

We encourage users who see posts or threads that violate rules to report them so that they can be dealt with.

 

[lds324]

Recommending a drug walks a line between harm reduction and encouraging drug use. It's one thing to say "for the love of fuck don't make IV heroin the first drug you ever take." It's another thing to say "dude, acid is so cool and it doesn't harm your body that much." Encouraging someone to use a drug, as long as they aren't or won't take a stronger drug, is the opposite of harm reduction.