Opioids Swelling when IVing BTH

[rhun]

Last weekend I tried IVing for the first time. Smoking tar has just never really done it for me and doesn't even compare to the oral Oxycontin I used to take.
My only experience with needles is getting shots in the hospital pretty much. I researched here on BL and was pretty successful I would say.
I registered blood my first attempt and 4/5 out of my other attempts.

Here's my question.. While pressing down the plunger I noticed the area around the vein (or maybe it was the vein itself) becomes really, really, swollen. I rechecked to make sure I was in twice and I was. So is this normal? After massaging the area the swelling went away.

I don't know anyone who IVs and I've never watched anyone do it so I just don't know what's normal and what's not.

 

[brutus]

Go to the doctor if you are concerned.

 

[Znegative]

Well, BTH can be really hard on the veins, though there shouldn't be much/any swelling if your IV'ing correctly. Are you using a tourniquet? If so, make sure you take it off before injecting!!!

Also, when injecting tar, make sure to register a couple times during the injection process. Due to the dark color of BTH, it can be difficult to know whether you are in the vein or not. On top of that, it usually takes at least 60 units for a shot, which dies not leave much room for registering.

Finally, if you are going to be injecting tar I would highly recomend using a micron. The stuff can wreak havoc on your veins.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Hi rhun, please don't make multiple threads on the same topic, this is really similar to your thread in BDD. If you wanted to move that thread over here to OD you could have asked me or another mod to do so, or if you had any new info or details to add you could have just posted them in your same thread. Maybe we can merge that thread with this one?

I did already post links to a bunch of threads for you to check out about IV complications and IV techniques, please read them

As for the swelling, it could be a number of different things. If you are injecting it too fast or are using a tourniquet and not loosening it before injecting, if you are using veins that are small and delicate (such as those in the hands, wrists, feet, etc), if the heroin solution is irritating the area, if you are missing part of the shot, if you are not filtering it properly, if you are getting a histamine reaction, etc. I found certain types/batches of heroin would always cause swelling when I injected them and that using small veins would always result in swelling. Try filtering your solution, using the large vein in the crook of your arm to inject, and injecting slowly. And make sure you are inserting the needle at a shallow angle and not puncturing through the vein to the other side.

Also are you heating your solution? If you are injecting it hot that could potentially cause some swelling. You shouldn't have to heat most types of tar heroin, the actual heroin should dissolve without heat and the heat will just dissolve the fillers. As Znegative said it would really be best if you could use a micron filter if you aren't already. If you aren't willing/able to get micron filters please at the very least use a decent make-shift filter.

I gotta say though, if heroin isn't doing much for you I would just stay away from it. It's really not worth the risk of addiction or IV complications. Are you already dependent on opioids?

 

[rhun]

I'm sorry, my bad. If it would be best to merge it, go ahead. Still a little new to BL.. wasn't sure whether to post on the old thread or make a new one.
I did check all the links and didn't find an answer. Most of the stuff I read I am already doing, though it was good info.

In answer to the questions:
Yes, I use a tourniquet but I loosen before injecting. I inject slowly and stop a couple times during to re-register and make sure I'm still in the vein. I do not heat the solution, I only do cold shots because I've only heard bad things about using heat. I am not currently micron filtering, but I do filter the best I can.

The reason the swelling is odd to me is because it only occurs while I'm injecting and goes away rapidly. The whole area doesn't swell, just the area around the vein. But like I said I check multiple times to make sure the needle hasn't slipped out.. and so far it never has.

I've been using opiates for 2 years now. Before that I used uppers for years, mostly meth. I went cold turkey 4 months ago and since then my use has been off and on instead of daily. I just wanted to IV to see what H is like when it actually works. Last night I finally did enough to get a real rush. I still wasn't impressed, I prefer the awake feeling that I get from Oxycontin. I don't like morphine either.

I haven't done anything today and I feel okay so far. But it's really not getting sick that scares me. I've been off opiates for months and still was unable to function like a normal person. That's why I don't quit, I want to do more than hide in my house.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Yeah I hear that, I understand how you feel. It takes a lot of time and effort and trying lots of different things to function without opioids. Taking opioids feel like they help right away. But one of the problems is that the longer you use opioids the less they will help with any mental and physical issues you have, you will end up just needing them to keep from having miserable withdrawals and any issues you were self-medicating will actually get worse. They are a poor solution that only helps in the short term by masking your problems. It really is worth it to put in the effort to find healthier and longer-lasting alternatives.

How soon does the swelling go away? Are you still injecting into your wrists?

It might just be an irritation. Or if you are using small/delicate veins.

 

[rhun]

Exactly. It's so frustrating because I'm know all that.. I know a lot about opiates and how they work and the consequences. My dad is also an addict, though he's been on methadone the last 6 years which has helped but he's still not clean. He believes that his body does not produce enough endorphins on it's own and he's always self-medicated as a result. And I feel the same way. Since before I ever did drugs I didn't feel "normal." I've always been easily exhausted, physically and mentally, despite being extremely healthy and active. And I just don't get excited the way other people do, I feel very flat. And things that should feel good just don't. Taking opiates I felt normal for the first time.

But at the same time I know if I keep taking them I'm going to make things worse for myself in the long run. But when I don't take them it's like my life comes to stand still. Working is almost impossible and takes everything out of me so I literally can't do anything else other than work, I'm too tired. Suddenly I'm too tired to eat, to even do my laundry or clean the house, sometimes I'm too tired even to shower. I cease to function. Even after months sober the improvement is very minimal. I take daily vitamins and supplements, exercise daily, eat a vegetarian diet with a lot of fruits and vegetables, and I've tried 5HTH and St. Johns Wart with no noticeable results. I take Tyrosine too and sometimes I feel more awake from it but it's subtle.

I've noticed that the swelling has appeared less and less. I was first IVing with 25g needles.. They were supposed to be 29s but I got 29s yesterday and they were WAY smaller. The swelling appeared while I was almost down pressing down the plunger. I would massage the area and it seemed to go away after a few minutes. It was very odd. I thought I was missing but like I said I checked 2-3 times to make sure I was still in the vein.

I have mostly used my wrists and the back of my hands. I wish I hadn't done my hands before I'd had some practice because they're definitely a little sore. I know you're supposed to use the crook of your elbow but I just cannot see a vein there.. Are you supposed to? Or do you know stick the needle in and see if you register? That seems like not the greatest idea..

 

[Swimmingdancer]

This is exactly how I felt for a very long time. But it is possible to heal without opioids (opioids don't heal you anyway, they just make it worse in the long run) and the less amount of time you have done opioids the easier it is to change your brain. I have been dependent on opioids for 15 years and am in the process of getting off them (down from 100mg methadone to 8mg now). I still do not feel like I imagine a "normal" person to feel or how I'd ideally like to feel and function, but it's getting better through a lot of hard work and I am hopeful for the future. I really wish I had started on this path a long time ago. If you are interested I can recommend some excellent books, and some non-drug therapies, supplements, activities, etc that help, as well as a list of things you should be tested for (like hormone imbalances etc).

Glad the swelling is getting less, maybe it was just an irritation. Using smaller needles and bigger veins helps. Don't use your hands/wrists unless you absolutely have to. I do still think you should really avoid IV, but since you're probably going to do it anyway I'll still answer any questions you have about it for harm reduction sake .

It's not necessary to be able to see the vein, but you don't want to just go randomly stabbing around either. You can do some things to make the veins in your arms more pronounced and then feel for them. Do some exercise, apply heat or have a hot bath, and use a proper synthetic-rubber tourniquet (the flat kind are best IMO, tied not too tight and using the quick-release method). Look at a vein map to see where the veins are supposed to be. The best one is usually around a third of the way in from the left on your left arm. Feel or tap around gently with the pad of your index finger, the vein will feel different from the surrounding area and kind of like a spongey noodle under the skin, and will slightly "bounce" back when tapped on. You could practice on any large-ish veins that you can see to get an idea of what veins should feel like. You may not need to use a tourniquet, personally I prefer to not use one in most cases and have never met someone new to IVing who genuinely needed one.

Then, you want to use the "vacuum method" to register: Insert the needle at a shallow angle with the bevel facing up. As soon as the needle punctures the skin, draw back slightly on the plunger. Slowly insert the needle further watching to see if any blood enters the syringe. As soon as you see any blood go in, hold the needle in place and draw up again on the plunger to make sure it is still in and that more blood enters the syringe.

 

[Ribcaged]

Must just be a reaction to the stuff. Nothing to worry about if it immediately goes away.

The only thing I could think of to explain it was a half-in-half-out hit, and those suck so bad. They flag like they're in perfectly but then it turns out being a partial miss, ugh. They seem to go away quicker than a normal miss but in no way are they gone quickly. So that's not what's going on here.

Stay safe and if you have any more questions, definitely post them. I have seen some terrible advice given here, but so long as you sort through them you can certainly get some pointers on how to stay as safe as possible here. & you're gonna need all the help you can get if you're IVing that shit.

 

[Swain]

Last weekend I tried IVing for the first time. Smoking tar has just never really done it for me and doesn't even compare to the oral Oxycontin I used to take.
My only experience with needles is getting shots in the hospital pretty much. I researched here on BL and was pretty successful I would say.
I registered blood my first attempt and 4/5 out of my other attempts.

Here's my question.. While pressing down the plunger I noticed the area around the vein (or maybe it was the vein itself) becomes really, really, swollen. I rechecked to make sure I was in twice and I was. So is this normal? After massaging the area the swelling went away.

I don't know anyone who IVs and I've never watched anyone do it so I just don't know what's normal and what's not.

Thats not normal. Where are you injecting? I say you had a partial miss, or you used a bad spot like forearm or something. Or possibly you poked all the way though your vein with that massive needle while you were "registering" and made a hole on the bottom side, causing a leak. If yo miss even a little on your hand, forearm, or feet you get swelling/bruising pretty easy.

25g is too big IMO for injecting, dont go bigger than 27g. Also, do NOT stick the needle all the way in then pull backward to register. Puncture the skin and as soon as you puncture, pull back 5 units to create a vacuum, then continue inserting until you see a flash of blood. That way you do not cause trauma/leaks.

Best areas are crook of arms, cephalic about 3-4 inches under base of thumb, and basalic around 7 inches from base of pinky (atleast for me..)

Also, unless you keep your tourniquet real loose you MUST loosen before injecting other wise you can cause fluid to back up / leak / or worse blow a vein. I personally use a tourni very loose just enough to cause a minor bulge and pull off after my shot now because when shooting coke i seem to loose the vein if i pull off before.

You never wanna CUT off blood flow with a tourni anyway..if you are doing so you are making it way too tight. Best is to not use one if you have the veins, or to loosen after registering and before pushing the plunger though. Especially as a beginner.

If you inject properly with a new needle (for every puncture) all you will see after an injection is a tiny little red dot. You should NEVER have pain or swelling or you need to change your technique IMMEDIATELY.

 

[rhun]

Thanks guys for taking the time to give me advice and support.

Swimmingdancer, my dad actually just started tapering his methadone taper. It's going to take years because he's on 257mg.. No I'm not mistaken on the dose, he's always just been naturally tolerant when it comes to opiates and years of methadone hasn't helped. I hope to see him down to as low as you are eventually.. Good for you, that's quite an achievement. I know that the opiates are not helping in any way and only making it harder to get off in the future. But after really giving it my all and doing everything I possibly could to get healthy I just don't want to live like that again. Ugh. For now off and on use is making life tolerable without being physically dependent. But I know I'm treading a very fine line. Yes, I would be interested in anything you can recommend.. I would prefer just to feel good without opiates. I just have yet to find a way.

I actually did not know about the vaccuum method. Thank you, will definitely switch to that. I did notice that when inserting the needle and not registering I could push the needle a little forward or pull it out a little and then it would register.. So when I don't find the vein right away I've been doing that. Luckily I seem to have excellent aim. But I'm glad of all warnings, I definitely don't want to accidentally fuck up my veins.

Yeah, I've just been using the veins I can see. Which is why I tie off my arm, it makes them more visible. But I will definitely look at some charts to find veins and start feeling them.. The veins on my hands and wrists are actually pretty big but they're definitely delicate and can be painful. And I would rather find a way that doesn't require a tourniquet because reaching to loosen it before injecting is the only times the needle has slipped out. And yes, I use warm water on my arms before IVing.

And don't always use a new needle for every puncture.. But the one time I kept not registering I switched to a new syringe because I knew the needle had to be dull. But I never prep more than one shot per syringe, I get a new one. And yeah, after accidentally using a 25g I will neverrr go back. The 29g worked well.

I haven't done any H yesterday or today. I was just getting some cravings that I didn't feel were easily controlled so I forced myself to take a break. I don't want to be totally hooked when school starts.

Thanks guys for all your input, again I really appreciate it.

 

[Ribcaged]

And I would rather find a way that doesn't require a tourniquet because reaching to loosen it before injecting is the only times the needle has slipped out.

If you don't have anyone around who can help you, the best way is to keep the end of the tourniquet in your mouth. No joke, like the movies. You shouldn't let the needle dangle there. I see people do it in person all the time & I always lecture them about it, too, lol. Just pull with your teeth *slowly* and steadily when you get it. It's also helpful to make sure that when you tie it you don't have a lot of "excess" of the tie wrapped up in there. A small slight tug should be enough to undo it!

And don't always use a new needle for every puncture..

You should, if it's possible. Without a doubt.

 

[-Guido-]

Sounds like a histamine reaction. Black Tar heroin usually contains diaceytlmorphine monoacetylmorphine, acetylcodeine, narcotine, papaverine, narcine, meconine, and acetylthebaninol. It just isn't straight up heroin.

 

[Znegative]

What is your tar like? If its low grade, the type where you need at least a hundred units of water to dissolve a 'gram' (gram of 90% shit), than it would explain why you're experiencing swelling when injecting into your hands and wrists. Those veins are more fragile to begin with, and shooting that goopy garbage will definately be abrasive to your veins.

 

[tricomb]

Better micron that stuff. A gram of tar contains much less active ingredient by units of weight. Don't heat it. Filtering hot makes the filtration device much less effective, and allows precipitate matter/adulterants to dissolve into the solution. Heroin is freely soluble in water, if it's such horrible quality that you need heat to melt it down, make sure to let the solution cool completely prior to running it through a micron filter, if not one or two sterifit/sterile compacted cotton filters.

 

[rhun]

It's good quality. It doesn't really make sense to just assume my dope is bad. I need very little water and it dissolves on its own, I don't need to stir it or heat it.
Most of the shit tar around here is found on the infamous Heroin Hill. It's sticky and tastes and smells like dog shit. Nothing I buy is like that at all, thankfully.
Around here we have a lot of ODs from people getting addicted to that crap then trying H from another area of town and dying. It's really tragic..
But the gangs don't care, they use the drug money for guns, they're mostly MS 13 I think. But anyway, back on topic.

Guido: Yes, I agree that there's a bunch of components to BTH other than heroin... And just cause it's good quality tar doesn't mean it's not bad, that's for sure.
I think that a few times there might have been some kind of reaction.. I got weird bumps on my skin that went away after a few minutes. And an itchy feeling.
Once or twice though I think I may have just partially missed.. I registered several times to make sure but the needle may have slipped just a little.

Tricomb: I've never heated it, I've only IVed with cold, sterile water. I try and educate myself the best I can on anything I put in my body. And yes, I know if I'm going to continue to use I need to purchase micron filters. I've read a lot of your posts, the gist I got was chelated magnesium and micronfilters
I really need to sit down and take a long hard look at the situation and find some way out of this. Possibly bupe or methadone. But if I IV again, even if it's just once, I'll get some filters.

 

[mrsumone]

Living in Texas, I get tar as well unless I wanna go to the hood and buy caps (tar cut with dorman to make a powder and put in capsules). Anyways, you shouldn't get a burning sensation or swelling if you are successfully injecting into a vein. If you do miss some I find that massaging with a warm, damp wash cloth works well tp to reduce the swelling.

Also always be sure to use a filter when injecting any substance but definitely with tar. If you don't have micron filters available (which I don't) at least use a cotton.

I tend to register and re-register 2-3 times when injecting anything as to make sure I haven't slipped out of the vein (which can and has happened to me in the past). Also this method slows down your shot a little bit and if you happened to have loaded too much or your dope is more potent than usual, you have a chance to stop.

For the sake of harm prevention, If you do miss and the swelling doesn't go down after massaging it and it stays red and painful, get it checked out by a medical professional.

 

[mrsumone]

And actually sometimes even without missing I get a little redness and itching around injection site. Just depends on the batch. But the swelling isn't normal.

 

[rhun]

^ If you read my posts I stated that I register multiple times and filter the best I can. I did not experience burning. I can always tell when I've slipped out even before I re-register because it either burns or feels cold all of a sudden and there's swelling.

I'm pretty sure that the swelling I reported when I started this thread was due to some sort of weird reaction as well as large needles. I've IVed without any further issues or complications since posting this, thanks everyone for all the great info. What helped the most was the vacuum method Swimmingdancer described. I haven't had to use a tourniquet anymore.

I'm definitely already on the verge of being physically dependent again. I'm going to try and take a break but I know I need to come up with a long term solution. Maybe bupe.

 

[tricomb]

Tricomb: I've never heated it, I've only IVed with cold, sterile water. I try and educate myself the best I can on anything I put in my body. And yes, I know if I'm going to continue to use I need to purchase micron filters. I've read a lot of your posts, the gist I got was chelated magnesium and micronfilters
I really need to sit down and take a long hard look at the situation and find some way out of this. Possibly bupe or methadone. But if I IV again, even if it's just once, I'll get some filters.

Music to my ears. It's worth it to go all-out for yourself. I mean, if you don't take care of your injection process, who will? Even if it's just once, your body deserves your respect to the best of your ability.

I would encourage you to try buprenorphine, anything to get you off that tar man, I know how it is out here in California and trust me, even if you get quality tar, you're doing a number on your body, even with a micron filter. I would highly recommend you checking out Opioid Replacement Therapy, absolutely try buprenorphine, just make sure that after induction, you start rapidly cutting your dose as low as possible, under 8mg if not 4mg.

Of course, Ideally, you'd want to get down to 2mg, it would make getting off of the drug exponentially easier in the future if you're reducing your dose from 2mg-->1.5mg-->1mg-->0.75mg-->0.5mg-->0.25mg--> Done, rather than something more difficult such as maintaining at 24mg and having to taper for a super long time, having to taper -->12-->6-->4-->3-->2mg, and then the same sub-milligram taper. The lower you get, the harder it is to taper, the more you're going to feel it when you decrease your dose.

YMMV, best of luck to you. Please try buprenorphine before methadone, methadone should be your very last line of treatment, that is seriously the last thing you want to do.