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The power of community psychedelic experiences....

-=SS=- said:
That is just the truth my friend. I'm not anti-psychedelics, but you got to be realistic here about communal tripping. We're not ready for it and we're not designed for it either.
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This I would have to disagree with, though we may've been hardwiring ourselves away from this for the last thousand or couple thousand years, ultimately I think the roots of most if not all lineages have roots in tribal psychedelic use, and likely in the form of gatherings.

Its arguable that not all primitive humans used psychedelics, and probably right, not all of anything does one thing. But if primitive humans were partaking, like way back when, wouldn't they have done so together...? Seems like a less than smart approach to trip by oneself in the jungle considering all the dangers, whereas a tribe all gathered around a fire is much less likely to be attacked by some predator.

I'm no expert but I do feel that we've been designed more for communal tripping than solo tripping, in terms of the total elapsed time humanity has done one or the other... Solo tripping seems like an intellectual pursuit, and thus would have come up at a later time in our development as a species.
 
thoughtsUnThought said:
ultimately I think the roots of most if not all lineages have roots in tribal psychedelic use, and likely in the form of gatherings
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This is assumption though. It's similar to McKenna and his stoned-ape theory. Personally I think it's bullshit. There's plenty of people's that don't use psychedelics at all and infact operate well beyond the scope of the ordinary Western human eg Australian Aborigine. I think your assumption (and McKenna's) is based upon wishful thinking and nothing more.

IamMe90 said:
I also tink that "astral plane" stuff is bullshit unless you mean it metaphorically, in which case again, I don't think it has much "life" that is human unfriendly for me and a lot of other people. Not sure what's scaring you so much about the psychedelic state, but it's certainly not eating me up.
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No, I mean it literally. I've been there without psychedelics through meditation.. funnily enough it looked very similar to DMT space, if not identical. I found someone else posting the exact same observation on the tribe forum/website. The astral is not a belief.. it exists, many people have discovered this.
 
To start with most people here seem like extroverts, and it seems hard for you to understand people who prefer solitary lifestyles.

I don't really like meeting people, I do so maybe 5 times a year outside of work.
And for me to sit down with people in my community or even people I have common ground with and take psychedelics is in my mind ludicrous.

I have had psychedelic experience with very close friends and none of the experinces have been as meaningful as a good solo-trip.
Most of the time I just find them to be in the way and holding back the trips and making them uncomfortable.

And there are a lot of us even if we don't make a lot of sound.

Group Two.
Getting racists to sit down with the people they don't like is about as likley as getting 91.7% of my lands populations to sit down with a pedophile. Or just homophobes with gay people. Strongly religious people with different religions. People with different political opinions. And some strongly religious people can sit down but a lot can't, same goes with politics. And it does of course vary from country to country.

It dosn't take much for people to dislike eachother and saying that they should just sit down and eat LSD together is not very bright.


Group Three.
All the mentally unstable people, some people should just not eat psychedelics.

Group Four.
People who don't like the psychedelic experience for different reasons, because it not for everybody.

Group Five.
People who don't learn anything from psychedelics experiences just sees it as being intoxicated. Not really a problem but not all people share your view.

So to end this, to me this just seems like some hippie bullshit you tought up while high ( no offence ).
I do think we can learn things when we use psychedelics but just because we think it will work when we are tripping don't mean it will work in reality.

So yeah you could maybe do something like this with people like yourself but wouldn't that pretty much ruin the idea.
 
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-=SS=- said:
This is assumption though. It's similar to McKenna and his stoned-ape theory. Personally I think it's bullshit. There's plenty of people's that don't use psychedelics at all and infact operate well beyond the scope of the ordinary Western human eg Australian Aborigine. I think your assumption (and McKenna's) is based upon wishful thinking and nothing more.



No, I mean it literally. I've been there without psychedelics through meditation.. funnily enough it looked very similar to DMT space, if not identical. I found someone else posting the exact same observation on the tribe forum/website. The astral is not a belief.. it exists, many people have discovered this.
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I mean, do you really think you can assert your astral plane as "observable fact" with such certitude based on your own personal observation and one confirmation on another forum?? This is not fact, not theory, the most you could possibly say is that it is a hypothesis, and when the hypothesis has such an absurdly small amount of tangible evidence or theoretical framework to support it, it might as well be one. Nothing you said at all necessitates the existence of some sort of astral plane.
 
IamMe90 said:
I mean, do you really think you can assert your astral plane as "observable fact" with such certitude based on your own personal observation and one confirmation on another forum?? This is not fact, not theory, the most you could possibly say is that it is a hypothesis, and when the hypothesis has such an absurdly small amount of tangible evidence or theoretical framework to support it, it might as well be one. Nothing you said at all necessitates the existence of some sort of astral plane.
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If you mean prove it by the standards of modern science or physical objectivity, then no. I wouldn't say it would be impossible to do so, but right now definitely not. All i know is what I experienced.. and the meditation experience I had which put me in that place was FAR more powerful than any psychedelic induced trip i've had. Even with its similarities to DMT it was still more powerful. I don't necessarily agree with all the theory surrounding the astral plane/realm/dimension/what ever the fuck it is.. but I do know it exists.

Obviously if you have not experienced it then you're absolutely right to deny what I say. But I, and many others, know it exists and would say that you too could glimpse it. If you've done DMT you probably have already. What I saw on DMT was a confused mess, the meditation experience was a lot more sharp and focused (I was able to see visually very clearly). But both shared the same visual aspect though; it was like being inside a lava-lamp with these blobs and patterns of intense colour.
 
^The existence of a phenomenon does not necessitate that the prevailing interpretation of that phenomenon is correct, or has any value at all. Think about olden examples, like the Ptolemaic model of the universe or shit like that.

(And if you don't believe in New Age-y stuff, try to avoid using New Age terminology, lest people misinterpret your meaning. If you do, then whatevs.)
 
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kalle said:
To start with most people here seem like extroverts, and it seems hard for you to understand people who prefer solitary lifestyles.

I don't really like meeting people, I do so maybe 5 times a year outside of work.
And for me to sit down with people in my community or even people I have common ground with and take psychedelics is in my mind ludicrous.

I have had psychedelic experience with very close friends and none of the experinces have been as meaningful as a good solo-trip.
Most of the time I just find them to be in the way and holding back the trips and making them uncomfortable.

And there are a lot of us even if we don't make a lot of sound.

Group Two.
Getting racists to sit down with the people they don't like is about as likley as getting 91.7% of my lands populations to sit down with a pedophile. Or just homophobes with gay people. Strongly religious people with different religions. People with different political opinions. And some strongly religious people can sit down but a lot can't, same goes with politics. And it does of course vary from country to country.

It dosn't take much for people to dislike eachother and saying that they should just sit down and eat LSD together is not very bright.

Group Three.
All the mentally unstable people, some people should just not eat psychedelics.

Group Four.
People who don't like the psychedelic experience for different reasons, because it not for everybody.

Group Five.
People who don't learn anything from psychedelics experiences just sees it as being intoxicated. Not really a problem but not all people share your view.

So to end this, to me this just seems like some hippie bullshit you tought up while high ( no offence ).
I do think we can learn things when we use psychedelics but just because we think it will work when we are tripping don't mean it will work in reality.

So yeah you could maybe do something like this with people like yourself but wouldn't that pretty much ruin the idea.
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Good ideas! But you strike with offence as though I'm saying this is fact, which I specifically stated was not the case...this is a topic of discussion, not me saying lets do this, or that it would be good. I presented the possible benefits I feel could come, but I am just addressing ideas here.

I also specifically said that this idea is considering trippers tripping together, not those who do not, or those who find little to no value In the exp.

And no I wasn't stoned while creating this thread. Were you drunk within the last week?...perhaps the snooty "no offence but you're completely wrong" tone is from a lingering arrogance induced by such intoxication....thanks for the thoughts though besides the poke at my expense.

-=SS=- said:
This is assumption though. It's similar to McKenna and his stoned-ape theory. Personally I think it's bullshit. There's plenty of people's that don't use psychedelics at all and infact operate well beyond the scope of the ordinary Western human eg Australian Aborigine. I think your assumption (and McKenna's) is based upon wishful thinking and nothing more.



No, I mean it literally. I've been there without psychedelics through meditation.. funnily enough it looked very similar to DMT space, if not identical. I found someone else posting the exact same observation on the tribe forum/website. The astral is not a belief.. it exists, many people have discovered this.
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Touche on the grounds of speculation I stand upon in the topic. And while I have also gone to many "profound places" whilst meditating without drugs, I must say that if I weren't such an open minded and non conflictional guy, I would probably jam you back with...where the hell does your ground lie in your own declarations of surity! ? (he he I understand though, I agree there are other places of consciousness accessible without psychedelics) .

You do seem pretty dismissive of ideas though for being such a firm believer in the esoteric. A Scientifically speculative mind such as your own can surely look in the mirror and see that all you have is ideas as well right?
 
Alright tUT, let's actually try to anwer your questions:

would you other psychonauts be involved in a community trip had you the opportunity?
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Yes, group tripping can be fun, if we added a ritualistic aspect to it (or had an itinerary or general goal for the trip in mind going into it, to phrase that less provocatively), I'd be down for it.

Do you think that community psychedelic ceremonies would benefit the sense of togetherness, and help us to see that we are not so different?
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I can get the feeling from psychs solo, but assuming the community experience was one like I described above, where we all have the same goal and have commonality of purpose going into it, it could be a great bonding experience for people who don't really know each other well.

What are the potential drawbacks of group community ceremony?
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We have addressed this, I think the issues raised so far, while focusing on a broader community, are equally valid amongst a more limited audience.

Would some psychedelic compounds be more suited for this type of use? If so, which ones?
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Well there's going to be variability depending on how people react to them, also depending on what we plan on doing, and what kind of dosage level we're going for.

*ultimate question ha ha* is this the missing piece in our world, which if enacted could bring the world harmony? (transcending media manipulation, social stratification, general poopy moods among the laymen, etc)
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Hell no, there is no panacea. Going the traditional route of ethical living and virtue will do more to help the world than this could, drug experiences are just inspiration, therapy, and flavor to the real work of living and being harmonious with that which IS.
 
Never Knows Best said:
Alright tUT, let's actually try to anwer your questions:



Yes, group tripping can be fun, if we added a ritualistic aspect to it (or had an itinerary or general goal for the trip in mind going into it, to phrase that less provocatively), I'd be down for it.



I can get the feeling from psychs solo, but assuming the community experience was one like I described above, where we all have the same goal and have commonality of purpose going into it, it could be a great bonding experience for people who don't really know each other well.



We have addressed this, I think the issues raised so far, while focusing on a broader community, are equally valid amongst a more limited audience.



Well there's going to be variability depending on how people react to them, also depending on what we plan on doing, and what kind of dosage level we're going for.



Hell no, there is no panacea. Going the traditional route of ethical living and virtue will do more to help the world than this could, drug experiences are just inspiration, therapy, and flavor to the real work of living and being harmonious with that which IS.
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Awesome never knows, thanks for addressing the question! Love the answer too, grounded, logical, not poking me with a stick, fantastic!

Good point addressing intentions...i certainly pictured a group intention of growing/learning/healing as was approached traditionally in the spiritual context, but I definitely didn't specify and this is a primary cornerstone to making the ritual harmonious imo as well.

I agree that ethical living and virtue are the way to go for our world...which makes me wonder, do you think the psychedelic inspiration in a group learning exp could wind up angled toward brotherly love and other virtuous ideals?

And if you were leading such ceremony, with group agreed upon harmonious intent, Annnnd we were aiming for breakthrough +++–++++ intensity, which compound or plant would You choose my good man? (or any good men interested in answering ha)
 
thoughtsUnThought said:
You do seem pretty dismissive of ideas though for being such a firm believer in the esoteric. A Scientifically speculative mind such as your own can surely look in the mirror and see that all you have is ideas as well right?
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Sure. I can't claim to be 100% certain of anything unless I knew everything/had an absolute answer (Enlightenment), which I don't. It's just when it comes to communal tripping and group states I think people need to do it sober and even then it is still potentially hazardous to get into mental sync with others. We can't see what nasty shit people have.. I know possession isn't covered by modern psychology but it evidently occurs, and just like one can pass on a physical disease or virus to another surely that logic extends to mental afflictions too. And then there's mental parasites potentially too being shared.

It just seems sensible to not engage in that kind of open psychic state with others until we know more about who we are/what we are. I mean you wouldn't engage in an orgy with 20 people that weren't using any protection, you just know that isn't a wise thing to do for your health. That's the angle I'm coming from.. we need to think about psychic/mental health.
 
I dig it, good points

I see exactly where you're coming from and agree its an angle not well understood or investigated by modern psychedelic culture members. And definitely something to take into account before partaking with a group.

While there's no proof visible of such threats, I've seen enough in my time to believe. But hey that's just me
 
So I'm going to try to be a bit more helpful.

I want to say that I have seen in a documentary a clip from a MDMA session with a psychologist and that they were in a group.
Now this might just be something my mind made up, but if it's true.
Then there probobly is a reason why the did it in groupe which means that there is good sides to it.
Anybody know anything about this?

But as I understood it with the LSD treatments for dying people in Schweiz they did it "one on one" and I think it's easier get in deep and really conforont the issues.
Not a drawback for the group thing but that indicates to me that they did it for a reason, probobly that you don't get as introspective trip in a groupe . But yes they were unexperienced with psychedelics.

I do think that it may make the groupe stronger but also alienate those who do not participate.
And you will have to exclude people because we have all read reports with people who are to childish and tease the other participants, say that they should take more. And I think this would only add to the alienation of other people.
 
-=SS=- said:
psychedelics ARE dangerous. Not in the sense of being physically dangerous, but mentally and psychically dangerous.
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Dangerous in what sense? So Mckenna had an uncomfortable trip and decided he didn't want to take them anymore? So what? If that's as dangerous as psychedelics get then it's not very dangerous is it? The other day I read a story about a man who was sacked from his job and then went back and blew the managers head off with a shotgun - do we say "Sacking people is dangerous"?

but that fact just gets omitted from the psychedelic culture because people don't want to hear it.

I think they hear it plenty - every statement from a policeman, the government, magistrates etc will emphasise the "danger" of psychedelics and how you "look at the sun until you go blind" when you take them. The reality, as pretty much everyone who'se ever taken psychedelics soon realises is vastly different.

-=SS=- said:
Syd is a very sad case, I shed a tear for him unlike Leary or the others. He was mentally gifted already, he had some form of synthesia which he channeled productively.. but as soon as he started abusing LSD it blew his mind. I don't think he was mentally ill to begin with.. I think he had a beautiful mind that was destroyed by unfortunate circumstances.
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Syd had schizophrenia. Schizophrenia usually appears in your early twenties. How old was Syd when he became ill? 22. Go figure. That's the boring truth - but which sells more records saying "The singers got schizophrenia" or "The singer like took LSD and NEVER CAME BACK DUDE!!!". Clearly the second one sells which is why it gets so much prominence.

John Lennon took over a thousand trips and said he never had a flashback or a bad experience and he never knew anyone who had any problems from LSD either.
 
Ismene said:
John Lennon took over a thousand trips and said he never had a flashback or a bad experience and he never knew anyone who had any problems from LSD either.
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not according to him in the interview mentioned above, here is the link again, http://taz4158.tripod.com/johnint.html/

Here's what lennon had to say when asked about bad trips.

interviewer: Did you have many bad trips?

lennon: I had many. Jesus Christ, I stopped taking it because of that. I just couldn't stand it.

interviewer: You got too afraid to take it?

lennon: It got like that, but then I stopped it for I don't know how long, and then I started taking it again just before I met Yoko. I got the message that I should destroy my ego, and I did, you know. I was slowly putting myself together round about Maharishi time. Bit by bit over a two-year period, I had destroyed me ego. I didn't believe I could do anything. I just was nothing. I was shit. Then Derek [Taylor, Apple press officer] tripped me out at his house after he got back from L.A. He sort of said, ``You're all right,'' and pointed out which songs I had written: ``You wrote this,'' and ``You said this,'' and ``You are intelligent, don't be frightened.'' The next week I went to Derek's with Yoko, and we tripped again, and she made me realize that I was me and that it's all right. That was it; I started fighting again, being a loudmouth again and saying, ``I can do this. Fuck it. This is what I want,'' you know. ``I want it, and don't put me down.'' I did this, so that's where I am now. At some point, right between `Help!' and `Hard Day's Night,' you got into drugs and got into doing drug songs. A Hard Day's Night, I was on pills. That's drugs, that's bigger drugs than pot. I started on pills when I was fifteen, no, since I was seventeen, since I became a musician. The only way to survive in Hamburg to play eight hours a night, was to take pills. The waiters gave you them - the pills and drink. I was a fucking dropped-down drunk in art school. Help! was where we turned on to pot, and we dropped drink, simple as that. I've always needed a drug to survive. The others, too, but I always had more, more pills, more of everything because I'm more crazy probably.

Interviewer: How do you think LSD affected your conception of the music? In general?

lennon: It was only another mirror. It wasn't a miracle. It was more of a visual thing and a therapy, looking at yourself a bit. It did all that. You know, I don't quite remember. But it didn't write the music. I write the music in the circumstances in which I'm in, whether it's on acid or in the water.
 
One more thought on the lennon interview, Telling people you have destroyed your ego is the biggest ego trip going, i always found lennon to be a bit of a wanker, many brits did, and apart from a few tracks like imagine, woman, watching the wheels, most of what lennon churned out in his solo career was incoherent egocentric waffle imo.
 
webbykevin said:
not according to him in the interview mentioned above
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That was a 1970 interview just after he'd come out of primal therapy which is a very anti drug therapy tho. After he became disillusioned with primal therapy he was back taking LSD again in 1974 and in his 1980 Playboy interview he said:

PLAYBOY: "Acid?"

LENNON: "Not in years. A little mushroom or peyote is not beyond my scope, you know, maybe twice a year or something. You don't hear about it anymore, but people are still visiting the cosmos. We must always remember to thank the CIA and the Army for LSD. That's what people forget. Everything is the opposite of what it is, isn't it, Harry? They invented LSD to control people and what they did was give us freedom. Sometimes it works in mysterious ways its wonders to perform. If you look in the Government reports on acid, the ones who jumped out the window or killed themselves because of it, I think even with Art Linkletter's daughter, it happened to her years later. So, let's face it, she wasn't really on acid when she jumped out the window. And I've never met anybody who's had a flashback on acid. I've never had a flashback in my life and I took millions of trips in the Sixties."

webbykevin said:
One more thought on the lennon interview, Telling people you have destroyed your ego is the biggest ego trip going, i always found lennon to be a bit of a wanker, many brits did, and apart from a few tracks like imagine, woman, watching the wheels, most of what lennon churned out in his solo career was incoherent egocentric waffle imo.
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I dunno, I think his first album is probably about as great as music ever got. His singing on "God" is probably the best singing in the 20th century. Made a few good tracks up to 1974 but the Double fantasy stuff was pretty weak.
 
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