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All mods should read: The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies

Yeah, I missed that when I read MSB's post before. What is he on about? I was the son of the headteacher and I grew up with kids who's dads worked down the mines and then lost their jobs thanks to the closures of the mines. Our school was a broad cross section of the local community. Children from all kinds of backgrounds.

I can tell you that in small rural tight knit communities such as the one I grew up in, the working class children do interact with the adults from the professions. This is because all the kids go to the same school. There is only 1 school. I was a bright working class kid, one of my best friends during primary school was from a highly educated middle class family. We were always sat together, as I guess the teachers thought we would be good for each other somehow. I was much better than him academically (guess he wasnt interested) but he was years ahead of me and everyone else in terms of worldiness and 'suss' because he had older very clever sisters and parents.

I guess i'm from a different area to you guys then, because no one who is right in the head and who has money would send their children where I went to school. It sounds like you're both from communities where there isn't a lot of schools, perhaps 1 or 2? There were a few children from professional families at my school, but they were outweighed heavily by children from totally broken homes. The children who were bright and switched on, regardless of background, all just clustered together. Plus, you are sort of missing my point in the first place. The formation of a child's intelligence and path in life, and whether they are switched on properly, is over and done with by 4. What we need is children to be able to interact with professionals before that age to fix the problem, and it requires a lot of interaction - which in my eyes would be impossible. It doesn't matter if they get to interact with accountants and lawyers when they're 14 because the 'damage' will have already been done.
 
Was yours a rural community knockando ? I think this everyone mixing together thing might happen much more in rural communities than in cities, where everything does seem to be much more divided: the middle class kids live in expensive areas with good schools whilst the working class kids dont get the opportunity to get into the good schools, because they have the wrong postcode ?

Rural in the sense it was a village remote from civilisation, but it wasn't all Constable scenery, fox hunts and tea with the vicar. Suicides and killings, drugs and teenage pregnancy, that sort of thing.
 
The formation of a child's intelligence and path in life, and whether they are switched on properly, is over and done with by 4. What we need is children to be able to interact with professionals before that age to fix the problem, and it requires a lot of interaction - which in my eyes would be impossible.

Professionals? Why are you going on about professionals? Children benefit hugely from being spoken to and involved in things rather than being put in front of the TV to vegetate. It doesn't need to be a professional. My mum was not a professional, but she spoke to me constantly when I was an infant, so it gave me some facility with the language. My Dad was a professional but he barely spoke to me at all until I was 9 and that was to threaten me with castration.

Oh yeah, and reading, the house was full of books and I was encouraged to read. By my housewife mum.
 
Rural in the sense it was a village remote from civilisation, but it wasn't all Constable scenery, fox hunts and tea with the vicar. Suicides and killings, drugs and teenage pregnancy, that sort of thing.

Oh aye, shotgun incidents, drunk driving, magic mushrooms, rampant alcoholism, knife fights, rape, general death wish car and motorbike riding, break ins, rural communities arent any idyll.
 
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MSB, what did your interaction with accountants and lawyers consist of? Do you feel you missed out on interacting with architects, doctors and men of the cloth?
 
Nah, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't do away with (liberal, representative) 'democracy' completely - Churchill (not someone I often quote) had it right in describing it as 'the worst form of government except for all the others.). In general terms, I don't see much that can be done at a theoretical/philosphical level to 'improve' the situation - all I have are a few vague policy ideas...

1) Representation: virtually any electoral system other than first past the post/simple plurality. This, though, is a dead issue in the UK for a generation or so after the AV referendum became a referendum on Nick Clegg. The Single Transferable Vote system is probably the most genuinely representative and functional system out there, but it doesn't really matter now.

2) A commitment to evidence-based policy in all areas, including crime, and, you guessed it, drugs. An independent entity to review political manipulation of scientific data concerning health, crime, energy policy et cetera composed of credible academics themselves subject to peer review.

3) A press that isn't staffed by braindead, craven and gullible idiots, lacking specialist knowledge of anything but manipulation and bribery. One, moreover, that just turns the camera off when politicians repeat themselves and evade questions. Let's clone Paxman.

4) An independent, representative judiciary subject to dismissal, in criminal cases, for clearly partial verdicts (i.e. sentences given to last year's rioters).

5) An end to arbitrary search and seizure, an absolute right to silence, a police complaints commission with teeth.

6) Bicameral paraliamentarianism with some proportion of the upper chamber (i.e. a reformed Lords), selected, as with Jury Service, essentially by lot. I know, it sounds crazy - but then current Lords Reform proposals (15 year terms? staggered elections?) are, too. I'd go for a mix of the Irish Senate, a 'jury of peers', and direct proportional elections making up 50% of the revising chamber/upper house.

7) Stricter campaign finance laws & limits on election expenditure. A recognition (in the US) that money (campaign donations) and speech are not synonymous and thus entitled to the same legal protection, a blanket ban on current or former elected officials ever working for institutions or individuals heavily reliant on government support and subject to governmental regulation - i.e. banks, pharmaceutical and arms companies, et cetera. This would, I think, go a long way towards ending transatlantic 'corporate welfare,' and would make holding office a matter of public service, rather than careerism (at least to an extent).

8) An education system that isn't underfunded, provincial and addicted to testing.

9) A general governmental scepticism towards standardisation, whether in educational testing or the use of statistics.

10) Electronic surveillance of individuals as the exception, not the norm, subject to intense judicial oversight, with government abuse of surveillance punishable by custodial sentence. Under such a regime, most of our recent office holders in the UK and US would be inside. And only about 80% of them belong there. Still, you can't make borscht without chopping a few beets.

Again, a long post - I'm rambling and avoiding work/worries about a benzo taper I can't seem to stick to. One last thing for now: I oppose the death penalty as implemented in the US, China, and most other countries that are notorious for it, but not in all cases. I don't think it was wrong to hang Adolf Eichmann, for example, and while extra-judicial executions are in principle indefensible, google 'Herberts Cukurs' and see if you can really, honestly, condemn his assasination. A death penalty for genocide seems to me reasonable - if the proper safeguards could be put in place. Given the difficulty of establishing guilt, though (Eichmann being an exception), I suspect such a penalty would be used, if a reasonable doubt provision existed, a few times a century.

1. I am in 2 minds about this. I like like FPTP because it gives a strong majority, which basically gives you some of the benefits of a dictatorship but a dictatorship you elect periodically. Really what we need is more actual choice. As we've seen from this coalition, government just gets pulled in 2 directions when they have to work together (in Britain any way), and nothing gets done. A good solution to FPTP being more representative would be to make it law that the party in power doesn't get to change the boundaries of constituencies to rig the next election in their favour. Constituencies should be made up of roughly the same size, so we don't end up with scenarios where one MP represents tens of thousands of people while another represents a few thousand, but both get the same voting power in parliament.

2. I agree 110%. Strangely enough this is why I like the house of Lords the way it is, relatively unelected and unanswerable to anyone. Whenever you hear of anyone speaking sense with regard to drug policy, 9/10 they will be in the HoL. They don't need to think about being reelected, they just need to think about what's right for the country. The problem of course comes in when that conflicts with their own personal interests.

3. Definitely, clone Paxman. It's a bit of a chicken and egg question here though, isn't it? Is the press dumbed down and stupid because the general public is, or vice versa? I suspect it is the former, given that decent newspapers like The Times do exist, they are just read in much lower numbers than The Sun and other papers that are nothing but toilet paper. One things for certain though, the Sun and the Daily Mail aren't actually staffed by idiots. They are just giving idiots what they want.

4. Yes, this judiciary as part of the governence of this country was severely weakened under Labour, and I would greatly like to see them claw back some of their power and their ability to be impartial. If they are going to be creating common law for us all to live by in various parts of our lives, then it would make much more sense if their selection was from a less narrow strata of society. I think this issue may resolve itself over time, as long as they keep their power, because more and more 'normal' people are becoming barristers, and in turn QCs and in turn Judges who can work their way up the ladder - in much the way females are beginning to now.

5.Yep.

6. I don't think making a certain percentage of the upper chamber being chosen by lot is wise at all. Properly drafting and creating legislation requires supreme intelligence and foresight, that most people simply do not possess. In among the life long peers, many of whom I too take exception to too, are a lot of people who have proven via merit that they deserve a life long role in the creation of policy in this country. The upper house is just about the only thing that puts any brakes on parliament being total fuckwits, and that really needs to be maintained in my eyes. It sounds a bit crazy, but I actually like Oswold Mosleys idea of a parliament but applied to an upper house. The idea being that several people for each type of work, from cleaning, to building, to science, to being a housewife, are selected to run in each category. If you are a housewife you get your election card to elect the housewife who will represent you in the HoL. I think if we broke every job down in an orderly way, that would be a very good way of representing and getting a wide knowledge base, which would create and amend legislation in a very good fashion. I would also like to add that I think for any position of power, I think you should be signed off by 2 independent psychologists who have checked whether you suffer from psychopathy. I think a very large percentage of both houses are very high on the spectrum, and they are the ones holding this country back.

7. Campaign financing needs some serious reworking in the UK, but moreso in the US. Campaign financing in the US has totally destroyed any version of democracy that existed there. The politicians place in the legislature is more reliant on them getting their 50k from big pharma to run an ad campaign, than it is on the electorate they are meant to represent, so it's obvious who loses in that battle. I have not put enough thought into this to come up with an adequate solution, but I suspect that normal people becoming more involved in politics and joining parties and paying their fee to be in that party, might be part of the answer.

8. Agreed. The more you put into education the more you get out. It is a false economy to underresource education. Although I am sure it will probably prove controversial on here of all places, I think streaming needs to be brought back. Perhaps a system similar to Germany, where people are streamed at 14. There is no shame in doing a manual job, and a lot of children are totally wasting their time being made to sit in a class to take a GCSE they're never going to pass or use any way. And not only that, but the ones who want to get that GCSE and use it are disrupted by the ones who know their future doesn't lie in that direction.

9. I haven't put much thought into standardisation at all, so I can't comment.

10. I agree with this point too. Electronic surveilance is pretty much like giving the ability to the government to surveil your mind... what you're interested in, what you like, who you associate, what you do. Anything they want to know about you they can find out, and that makes me uneasy. Seeing as almost every book in the future will be an e-book, can you also see that with the press of a button we will no longer be able to read whatever the government decides it doesn't want us to know? It sounds paranoid, but when you don't need to do mass book burnings, just press a button, it could easily become reality.

With regard to the death pentalty, I think it is unneccessary. Even though I fully agree certain people don't deserve to live, I just don't want the state to ever have a window to use to kill people who do things they don't like. I especially hate the way that in the US it is used to satiate the blood thirsty demands for vengence of a certain type of people who have plagued humanity since the start of time. The death penalty serves no purpose other than making victims feel better, and it would be far better for them to either forgive or accept that the person who harmed them will never see the light of day again.
 
Professionals? Why are you going on about professionals? Children benefit hugely from being spoken to and involved in things rather than being put in front of the TV to vegetate. It doesn't need to be a professional. My mum was not a professional, but she spoke to me constantly when I was an infant, so it gave me some facility with the language. My Dad was a professional but he barely spoke to me at all until I was 9 and that was to threaten me with castration.

Oh yeah, and reading, the house was full of books and I was encouraged to read. By my housewife mum.

Your mum was married to a professional, which suggests to me that although she lacked the actual qualifications, she certainly didn't lack the ability to be a professional if the opportunity or the wish had presented itself. My mum was similar, although she did work in a rather professional job very part time too. And I agree wholeheartedly, a house packed with a plethora of books doesn't do any child any harm, especially when an adult is generally always on hand to help read them. They don't need to be professionals, just 'professional grade' people, if that makes sense?

MSB, what did your interaction with accountants and lawyers consist of? Do you feel you missed out on interacting with architects, doctors and men of the cloth?

Both of my parents are semi-professional themselves. Not lawyer or accountant professional, but a solid B if they were being put into a class category by the pollsters ICM (I used to work there ;)). Do I feel I missed out because I didn't have parents who were A's on that social grading system? Not really. I often wish I was I could be happy reading the Sun and going to the costa del arsehole, eating fried breakfasts, for the rest of my life - much like the children of D's from the school I went to are right now. I am quite happy with the balance I received though. Not too middle class, not too working class. It helps me to see both sides of the coin, if only a little.
 
Your mum was married to a professional, which suggests to me that although she lacked the actual qualifications, she certainly didn't lack the ability to be a professional if the opportunity or the wish had presented itself.

I think I'm only one good job away from being able to call myself middle class if i wanted to, (i have the education and abilty) maybe a middle class girlfriend would help too. If i did ever achieve that (unlikely) and have children they would be middle class. As it stands i have failed to secure a proper professional job so i have no choice other than to call myself working class.
 
Nearly all my girlfriends, flings and one-night-stands have been middle class and I'm a total dosser.

So my cock believes in a classless society even if I don't necessarily.
 
I think I'm only one good job away from being able to call myself middle class if i wanted to, (i have the education and abilty) maybe a middle class girlfriend would help too. If i did ever achieve that (unlikely) and have children they would be middle class. As it stands i have failed to secure a proper professional job so i have no choice other than to call myself working class.

I find it hard to 'class' people these days. It's just as clear cut as it was. The main thing you can really go off of is general association, and habitation. If most of your friends wear blazers, ride horses, you live in Chelsea, and you go to Abercrombie and Fitch to buy your clothes, you're probably upper middle class. If most of your friends wear tracky bottoms, you live in Hackney, and you buy your clothes from Sports Direct, you're probably working class. But still, I don't think if you were either of those people you would necessarily 'be' in those classes. I think class mobility is an intergenerational thing, so even though you and I have education and ability, it will probably be our children who are middle class rather than us - who are just left slightly puzzled by the whole thing.
 
The formation of a child's intelligence and path in life, and whether they are switched on properly, is over and done with by 4.
Right, you quoted something written about three year olds, but I think we need to see something a bit more concrete on this whole thing. A kid can grow up with shit parents, a shit time at a shit school, with no contact with professionals, and end up a multi-millionaire - due to being a fucking genius. Vice-versa; kids from a good upbringing can also end up in the gutter. Are you trying to tell us that whether you're a loser, or not, is decided by the magical age of four? I know what you mean, in a sense. I came from a pretty much middle-class family, and I feel that I'm relatively intelligent (although I've achieved little) - whereas, I see kids from rough families, shouting at trees and other cretinous behaviour. It doesn't always work out that way, though.
 
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

Juicy bits are 22,23,24&25

Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on situation) rules are generally not directly within the ability of the traditional disinfo artist to apply. These rules are generally used more directly by those at the leadership, key players, or planning level of the criminal conspiracy or conspiracy to cover up.

1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you know, don't discuss it -- especially if you are a public figure, news anchor, etc. If it's not reported, it didn't happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.

2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the 'How dare you!' gambit.

3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method which works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such 'arguable rumors'. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a 'wild rumor' from a 'bunch of kids on the Internet' which can have no basis in fact.

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism, reasoning -- simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.

7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could be taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.

8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough 'jargon' and 'minutia' to illustrate you are 'one who knows', and simply say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man -- usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with - a kind of investment for the future should the matter not be so easily contained.) Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually then be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.

11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the 'high road' and 'confess' with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made -- but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities which, 'just isn't so.' Others can reinforce this on your behalf, later, and even publicly 'call for an end to the nonsense' because you have already 'done the right thing.' Done properly, this can garner sympathy and respect for 'coming clean' and 'owning up' to your mistakes without addressing more serious issues.

12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to lose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards or with an apparent deductive logic which forbears any actual material fact.

14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best with issues qualifying for rule 10.

15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.

16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations -- as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.

21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed and unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict is achieved, the matter can be considered officially closed. Usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking to frame a victim.

22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.

23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes.

24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of their character by release of blackmail information, or merely by destroying them financially, emotionally, or severely damaging their health.

25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.
 
Right, you quoted something written about three year olds, but I think we need to see something a bit more concrete on this whole thing. A kid can grow up with shit parents, a shit time at a shit school, with no contact with professionals, and end up a multi-millionaire - due to being a fucking genius. Vice-versa; kids from a good upbringing can also end up in the gutter. Are you trying to tell us that whether you're a loser, or not, is decided by the magical age of four? I know what you mean, in a sense. I came from a pretty much middle-class family, and I feel that I'm relatively intelligent (although I've achieved little) - whereas, I see kids from rough families, shouting at trees and other cretinous behaviour. It doesn't always work out that way, though.

Everyone who's interested in this stuff should read the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.

My friend who is an accountant had a terrible upbringing but he's been very "successful", even if he is a neurotic mess.
 
Right, you quoted something written about three year olds, but I think we need to see something a bit more concrete on this whole thing. A kid can grow up with shit parents, a shit time at a shit school, with no contact with professionals, and end up a multi-millionaire - due to being a fucking genius. Vice-versa; kids from a good upbringing can also end up in the gutter. Are you trying to tell us that whether you're a loser, or not, is decided by the magical age of four? I know what you mean, in a sense. I came from a pretty much middle-class family, and I feel that I'm relatively intelligent (although I've achieved little) - whereas, I see kids from rough families, shouting at trees and other cretinous behaviour. It doesn't always work out that way, though.

I am fully aware that you can go against the grain, and do well or badly. I know many people who have gone from a shit family to success, and people who have had it all and ended up living off daddy. I'm just talking about the majority, not the exceptions :) It is very hard to break the mold of your background, because not only do you get your genes from your parents you also get your nurture from them too. Genetics aren't understood well though, for some freakish reason people like Einstein could be born in a 3 bed council house to parents who don't give a shit about them for anything but the extra child care money it brings in. But what you have to think, is how much better would this theoretical Einstein baby have done if it was born into a professional family with that superior intellect?
 
Sometimes it's nothing to do with genetics, MSB. Sometimes it's just circumstance. Have you read Outliers? I urge you strongly to do so. I'll even send you my copy if you PM me your addy.
 
Sometimes it's nothing to do with genetics, MSB. Sometimes it's just circumstance. Have you read Outliers? I urge you strongly to do so. I'll even send you my copy if you PM me your addy.

I've already got a copy mate, he also wrote 'Blink' didn't he? I know it's not all genetics, that's why i mentioned nurture. Some people though, in my opinion, just have such strong superior genetics that they are born to break the limits of circumstance. Arnold Schwarzenneger was born into a little shed in Austria to an abusive father, at 16 wrote down he wanted to be the best bodybuilder in the world, then a film star, then a politician, and went out and did it. Furthermore, a lot of people in positions of power are utter fuckwits, but thanks to daddy they went to Eton. So yes, I think I get your point. Or am I wrong? This nature vs nurture debate has gone on for a long time. Adoption studies have shown that some of it's down to nature, and some of it's down to nurture though.
 
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