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It is from the Hart and Risley studies carried out from 1995 onwards. It states children's academic success is linked to the amount of talk they hear upto age 3, so I assume that by age 4 the 'damage' is done? (http://www.lenababy.com/Study.aspx)

If we look to India, where many live in very communal environments, it doesn't seem to have solved the issues. If we became more communal, or reverted back to being more communal if we ever really were that communal, it would only really be among 'our own'. We still would also still be spending the majority of our formative years with our mums and/or dads too. They have tried good start (I forget the actual name) schemes, which did give a little boost, but the gap was still there and it was still wide.

Back to the democracy issue, how does democracy work properly in a country with such systemic issues among the population.
 
It is from the Hart and Risley studies carried out from 1995 onwards. It states children's academic success is linked to the amount of talk they hear upto age 3, so I assume that by age 4 the 'damage' is done? (http://www.lenababy.com/Study.aspx)

thanks I'll look into that when I get a chance.

If we look to India, where many live in very communal environments, it doesn't seem to have solved the issues. If we became more communal, or reverted back to being more communal if we ever really were that communal, it would only really be among 'our own'. We still would also still be spending the majority of our formative years with our mums and/or dads too. They have tried good start (I forget the actual name) schemes, which did give a little boost, but the gap was still there and it was still wide.

I don't know much about India. But when I talk about "bringing community back" or whatever you want to call it, it's not a proper treatment to dismiss it based on the Indian example, is it?

Back to the democracy issue, how does democracy work properly in a country with such systemic issues among the population.

I'm not swallowing this "stupid people" thing without looking into. But a democracy can't work properly when the majority of people are not involved/disengaged for whatever reasons.
 
thanks I'll look into that when I get a chance.



I don't know much about India. But when I talk about "bringing community back" or whatever you want to call it, it's not a proper treatment to dismiss it based on the Indian example, is it?



I'm not swallowing this "stupid people" thing without looking into. But a democracy can't work properly when the majority of people are not involved/disengaged for whatever reasons.

Personally, I think it's proper treatment to question whether it ever actually existed in the first place, or whether you are looking at history with rose tinted glasses. I also didn't just mention India, I also mentioned the fact that even with a solid community the working class children wouldn't be interacting with the adults from the professions. And that's before we get into whatever policy we could put into place to force people to start talking to each other like they apparently used to?

My answer to the democracy issue is to split every thing down into blocks. I think that no voting area or parliament should represent more than say 5 million people. This theory is based on optimum population theory (but is a slight twist on it), which I discovered after the general observation that countries with small populations of under 5 million are generally far better served by their political representatives than countries the size of ours. I believe one of the biggest true democracies (without getting pedantic) in the world is America, and I also believe that no democracy has failed it's people more. I think the people of America have benefited far more from their individual state legislature than any of them have from the federal government, and I think the main purpose in uniting states and countrys or subcountries or whatever you want to call them, is for greater power and greater economies of scale. I'm not too sure just how vibrant India's democracy is, but that too proves the point. I think if we were split down into smaller voting blocks, that formed a bigger block, then we would have true democracy. The logical thinkers and intellectuals could lead the way as they should, instead of just an elite who can easily sway a large enough mass of people to gain power just by politicing, pandering and campaigning. It would also solve your disconnection from politics issue. What do you think?
 
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It's hard not to agree that voting blocks should be smaller, people should be in control of their own lives, of course! Local issues dealt with locally etc., what's not to love? I'm not sure about intellectuals "leading the way", what's the difference between "logical thinkers and intellectuals" and "an elite"?
 
It's hard not to agree that voting blocks should be smaller, people should be in control of their own lives, of course! Local issues dealt with locally etc., what's not to love? I'm not sure about intellectuals "leading the way", what's the difference between "logical thinkers and intellectuals" and "an elite"?

There is no difference really. The problem is the people in charge of politics for the entire country number 1-2000, which would be the optimum amount of people to be in charge of politics for a country of 5 million. It's easier for them to look after their own interests when there is such a small number of them relative to the population they represent. I believe it is just a bit harder to pull the wool over a smaller population's eyes, because in theory there should be less diversity in what people want. I think it could also end up being more meritocratic, and less about politics and more about actually doing stuff that way.
 
Has anyone else noticed that this thread has been completely derailed? Or maybe that's the point. Anyway...

Personally, I think it's proper treatment to question whether it ever actually existed in the first place, or whether you are looking at history with rose tinted glasses. I also didn't just mention India, I also mentioned the fact that even with a solid community the working class children wouldn't be interacting with the adults from the professions. And that's before we get into whatever policy we could put into place to force people to start talking to each other like they apparently used to?

My answer to the democracy issue is to split every thing down into blocks. I think that no voting area or parliament should represent more than say 5 million people. This theory is based on optimum population theory (but is a slight twist on it), which I discovered after the general observation that countries with small populations of under 5 million are generally far better served by their political representatives than countries the size of ours. I believe one of the biggest true democracies (without getting pedantic) in the world is America, and I also believe that no democracy has failed it's people more. I think the people of America have benefited far more from their individual state legislature than any of them have from the federal government, and I think the main purpose in uniting states and countrys or subcountries or whatever you want to call them, is for greater power and greater economies of scale. I'm not too sure just how vibrant India's democracy is, but that too proves the point. I think if we were split down into smaller voting blocks, that formed a bigger block, then we would have true democracy. The logical thinkers and intellectuals could lead the way as they should, instead of just an elite who can easily sway a large enough mass of people to gain power just by politicing, pandering and campaigning. It would also solve your disconnection from politics issue. What do you think?

In principle, the above reads as rational and well-thought through, but history suggests that US-style federalism has just led to dysfunction, institutionalised corruption and racism dominating two tiers - state and Federal - of government. Yes, it's always great to hear that another state has passed medical marijuana laws or a state Supreme Court has upheld gay marriage statutes (not so common), and prohibition in the US was only made possible by junking established constitutional doctrine - that the regulation of medicine and medicines should be reserved to the States. BUT the concept of State's rights was also used to justify segregation, necessitating a national civil rights movement and legislation with congressional and Presidential support. I'm not arguing for greater centralisation: but devolution doesn't always bring government closer to the people, and when it does, such as in Californian anti-tax referenda, you end up with state bankruptcy and a whole lot of laws being passed by 'the community' - notably against gay marriage, of late - that aren't exactly progressive or intelligent.

It's easy to be romantic about community and communitarianism - but much harder to make those ideals meaningful in a mass society, where, population theory aside, 'democracy' is an overblown concept - as soon as it becomes 'representative' rather than direct (and the latter often means mob rule, Hitler's use of referenda, which are easily manipulated by the phrasing of key questions), it's reduced to elective oligarchy. Established party systems - the oligarchs - have one key imperative: to preserve their grip on power. Hence the parties of government in the UK opposing electoral reform in Westminster elections (Labour hem and haw, but they had 13 years to take action and couldn't agree), and, in the US, establishing themselves as legal bodies with rights other parties don't enjoy. For example, a Democrat or Republican presidential candidate can get on the ballot in all 50 states with 50,000 signatures. A third-party candidate requires a million.

I've been reading a lot of ancient history lately, and one thing it makes clear is that very, very little changes: degrees of oppression and violence by power, degrees of formal and informal persecution of minorities and the disenfranchised (whatever political system they live under), while might makes what passes for 'right' - the State, after all, is defined by some political theorists in terms of it's 'absolute monopoly of legitimate violence.' (It has an army and police force: we don't). The idea of historical and social progress is an attractive one - but here, in 2012, we run headlong into the blunt fact that women work over 50% of global 'man hours', yet own about 2% of the world's property, while a lot of feminist writers seem to focus on arguments over porn and the sex trade. Are we going forwards in some respects? Yes, in some places, very, very, slowly. But it tends to take the form of 'one step forwards, two steps back', and the State keeps growing, extending its control over a social order that's far from stupid: it knows the extent (not total) of its own powerlessness. Politics and elections - or the politics of elections - are a great spectator sport for some of us who hate football, but it's important not to care too much about the outcome. Like the wise old codger said in (prison series, not Wizard of) Oz: 'I've learned not to make attachments. If you do, you spend your whole time grieving.' Or as Carla Bruni-Sarkozy put it 'When you look at the world as it is today, you have a choice between unhappiness and cynicism. I choose not to be unhappy.'

...uh...except, in my case, I'm a miserable depressive, of course. Apologies for the long post. I'm sure I meant something by it.
 
I have a conspicious habit of derailing threads beyond all recognition, Where Wolf? lol.

I had considered the other side of the optimum population theory, that a smaller population may well be even easier to manipulate, and you have added some good points against that philosophy. It has occured to me many times that if we were in a true democracy, where those in power didn't force their will and what's right on the people at least some of the time, things would go tits up. I hadn't heard of Californians voting against taxation, that sounds like a very clever referenda to allow which would obviously break such a system of direct democracy down. One thing I did know, was that in the UK currently, if there was a referendum on the death penalty tomorrow the majority of people would like to bring it back. Sure, that's democratic, but allowing the state to kill undesirables to me is unacceptable, so I am glad the state has taken a totalitarian stance towards it.

I don't mind the long post, I have found your ideas on this very useful and interesting. How would you improve democracy, or would you do away with it completely? Obviously in a perfect world I would be a dictator, but let's put that to one side for a minute :D

[edit] This chatter can stop if and be deleted if you like? It does follow a thread roughly, because I started talking about the Chinese internet censorship, which is no secret. Bit of a confusing one really. Apparently the aim of these undercover FBI people is to push threads like these off of the front page, but also to derail them, which one is it? I will make a more concerted effort to talk in clearly defined brackets just how everyone else does in real life though.
 
They derail them first then it's easier to push them off the front page ;)

Bunch of trolls.
 
I have a conspicious habit of derailing threads beyond all recognition, Where Wolf? lol.

I had considered the other side of the optimum population theory, that a smaller population may well be even easier to manipulate, and you have added some good points against that philosophy. It has occured to me many times that if we were in a true democracy, where those in power didn't force their will and what's right on the people at least some of the time, things would go tits up. I hadn't heard of Californians voting against taxation, that sounds like a very clever referenda to allow which would obviously break such a system of direct democracy down. One thing I did know, was that in the UK currently, if there was a referendum on the death penalty tomorrow the majority of people would like to bring it back. Sure, that's democratic, but allowing the state to kill undesirables to me is unacceptable, so I am glad the state has taken a totalitarian stance towards it.

I don't mind the long post, I have found your ideas on this very useful and interesting. How would you improve democracy, or would you do away with it completely? Obviously in a perfect world I would be a dictator, but let's put that to one side for a minute :D

[edit] This chatter can stop if and be deleted if you like? It does follow a thread roughly, because I started talking about the Chinese internet censorship, which is no secret. Bit of a confusing one really. Apparently the aim of these undercover FBI people is to push threads like these off of the front page, but also to derail them, which one is it? I will make a more concerted effort to talk in clearly defined brackets just how everyone else does in real life though.

Nah, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't do away with (liberal, representative) 'democracy' completely - Churchill (not someone I often quote) had it right in describing it as 'the worst form of government except for all the others.). In general terms, I don't see much that can be done at a theoretical/philosphical level to 'improve' the situation - all I have are a few vague policy ideas...

1) Representation: virtually any electoral system other than first past the post/simple plurality. This, though, is a dead issue in the UK for a generation or so after the AV referendum became a referendum on Nick Clegg. The Single Transferable Vote system is probably the most genuinely representative and functional system out there, but it doesn't really matter now.

2) A commitment to evidence-based policy in all areas, including crime, and, you guessed it, drugs. An independent entity to review political manipulation of scientific data concerning health, crime, energy policy et cetera composed of credible academics themselves subject to peer review.

3) A press that isn't staffed by braindead, craven and gullible idiots, lacking specialist knowledge of anything but manipulation and bribery. One, moreover, that just turns the camera off when politicians repeat themselves and evade questions. Let's clone Paxman.

4) An independent, representative judiciary subject to dismissal, in criminal cases, for clearly partial verdicts (i.e. sentences given to last year's rioters).

5) An end to arbitrary search and seizure, an absolute right to silence, a police complaints commission with teeth.

6) Bicameral paraliamentarianism with some proportion of the upper chamber (i.e. a reformed Lords), selected, as with Jury Service, essentially by lot. I know, it sounds crazy - but then current Lords Reform proposals (15 year terms? staggered elections?) are, too. I'd go for a mix of the Irish Senate, a 'jury of peers', and direct proportional elections making up 50% of the revising chamber/upper house.

7) Stricter campaign finance laws & limits on election expenditure. A recognition (in the US) that money (campaign donations) and speech are not synonymous and thus entitled to the same legal protection, a blanket ban on current or former elected officials ever working for institutions or individuals heavily reliant on government support and subject to governmental regulation - i.e. banks, pharmaceutical and arms companies, et cetera. This would, I think, go a long way towards ending transatlantic 'corporate welfare,' and would make holding office a matter of public service, rather than careerism (at least to an extent).

8) An education system that isn't underfunded, provincial and addicted to testing.

9) A general governmental scepticism towards standardisation, whether in educational testing or the use of statistics.

10) Electronic surveillance of individuals as the exception, not the norm, subject to intense judicial oversight, with government abuse of surveillance punishable by custodial sentence. Under such a regime, most of our recent office holders in the UK and US would be inside. And only about 80% of them belong there. Still, you can't make borscht without chopping a few beets.

Again, a long post - I'm rambling and avoiding work/worries about a benzo taper I can't seem to stick to. One last thing for now: I oppose the death penalty as implemented in the US, China, and most other countries that are notorious for it, but not in all cases. I don't think it was wrong to hang Adolf Eichmann, for example, and while extra-judicial executions are in principle indefensible, google 'Herberts Cukurs' and see if you can really, honestly, condemn his assasination. A death penalty for genocide seems to me reasonable - if the proper safeguards could be put in place. Given the difficulty of establishing guilt, though (Eichmann being an exception), I suspect such a penalty would be used, if a reasonable doubt provision existed, a few times a century.
 
Reposting 'cos I've been part of the derailment....

COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum..

There are several techniques for the control and manipulation of a internet forum no matter what, or who is on it. We will go over each technique and demonstrate that only a minimal number of operatives can be used to eventually and effectively gain a control of a 'uncontrolled forum.'

Technique #1 - 'FORUM SLIDING'

If a very sensitive posting of a critical nature has been posted on a forum - it can be quickly removed from public view by 'forum sliding.' In this technique a number of unrelated posts are quietly prepositioned on the forum and allowed to 'age.' Each of these misdirectional forum postings can then be called upon at will to trigger a 'forum slide.' The second requirement is that several fake accounts exist, which can be called upon, to ensure that this technique is not exposed to the public. To trigger a 'forum slide' and 'flush' the critical post out of public view it is simply a matter of logging into each account both real and fake and then 'replying' to prepositined postings with a simple 1 or 2 line comment. This brings the unrelated postings to the top of the forum list, and the critical posting 'slides' down the front page, and quickly out of public view. Although it is difficult or impossible to censor the posting it is now lost in a sea of unrelated and unuseful postings. By this means it becomes effective to keep the readers of the forum reading unrelated and non-issue items.

Technique #2 - 'CONSENSUS CRACKING'

A second highly effective technique (which you can see in operation all the time at www.abovetopsecret.com) is 'consensus cracking.' To develop a consensus crack, the following technique is used. Under the guise of a fake account a posting is made which looks legitimate and is towards the truth is made - but the critical point is that it has a VERY WEAK PREMISE without substantive proof to back the posting. Once this is done then under alternative fake accounts a very strong position in your favour is slowly introduced over the life of the posting. It is IMPERATIVE that both sides are initially presented, so the uninformed reader cannot determine which side is the truth. As postings and replies are made the stronger 'evidence' or disinformation in your favour is slowly 'seeded in.' Thus the uninformed reader will most like develop the same position as you, and if their position is against you their opposition to your posting will be most likely dropped. However in some cases where the forum members are highly educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked postings, you can then 'abort' the consensus cracking by initiating a 'forum slide.'

Technique #3 - 'TOPIC DILUTION'

Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a 'RESOURCE BURN.' By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a 'gossip mode.' In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to 'drive in the wedge.' By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.

Technique #4 - 'INFORMATION COLLECTION'

Information collection is also a very effective method to determine the psychological level of the forum members, and to gather intelligence that can be used against them. In this technique in a light and positive environment a 'show you mine so me yours' posting is initiated. From the number of replies and the answers that are provided much statistical information can be gathered. An example is to post your 'favourite weapon' and then encourage other members of the forum to showcase what they have. In this matter it can be determined by reverse proration what percentage of the forum community owns a firearm, and or a illegal weapon. This same method can be used by posing as one of the form members and posting your favourite 'technique of operation.' From the replies various methods that the group utilizes can be studied and effective methods developed to stop them from their activities.

Technique #5 - 'ANGER TROLLING'

Statistically, there is always a percentage of the forum posters who are more inclined to violence. In order to determine who these individuals are, it is a requirement to present a image to the forum to deliberately incite a strong psychological reaction. From this the most violent in the group can be effectively singled out for reverse IP location and possibly local enforcement tracking. To accomplish this only requires posting a link to a video depicting a local police officer massively abusing his power against a very innocent individual. Statistically of the million or so police officers in America there is always one or two being caught abusing there powers and the taping of the activity can be then used for intelligence gathering purposes - without the requirement to 'stage' a fake abuse video. This method is extremely effective, and the more so the more abusive the video can be made to look. Sometimes it is useful to 'lead' the forum by replying to your own posting with your own statement of violent intent, and that you 'do not care what the authorities think!!' inflammation. By doing this and showing no fear it may be more effective in getting the more silent and self-disciplined violent intent members of the forum to slip and post their real intentions. This can be used later in a court of law during prosecution.

Technique #6 - 'GAINING FULL CONTROL'

It is important to also be harvesting and continually maneuvering for a forum moderator position. Once this position is obtained, the forum can then be effectively and quietly controlled by deleting unfavourable postings - and one can eventually steer the forum into complete failure and lack of interest by the general public. This is the 'ultimate victory' as the forum is no longer participated with by the general public and no longer useful in maintaining their freedoms. Depending on the level of control you can obtain, you can deliberately steer a forum into defeat by censoring postings, deleting memberships, flooding, and or accidentally taking the forum offline. By this method the forum can be quickly killed. However it is not always in the interest to kill a forum as it can be converted into a 'honey pot' gathering center to collect and misdirect newcomers and from this point be completely used for your control for your agenda purposes.

CONCLUSION

Remember these techniques are only effective if the forum participants DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM. Once they are aware of these techniques the operation can completely fail, and the forum can become uncontrolled. At this point other avenues must be considered such as initiating a false legal precidence to simply have the forum shut down and taken offline. This is not desirable as it then leaves the enforcement agencies unable to track the percentage of those in the population who always resist attempts for control against them. Many other techniques can be utilized and developed by the individual and as you develop further techniques of infiltration and control it is imperative to share then with HQ.
 
Personally, I think it's proper treatment to question whether it ever actually existed in the first place, or whether you are looking at history with rose tinted glasses. I also didn't just mention India, I also mentioned the fact that even with a solid community the working class children wouldn't be interacting with the adults from the professions. And that's before we get into whatever policy we could put into place to force people to start talking to each other like they apparently used to?

I can tell you that in small rural tight knit communities such as the one I grew up in, the working class children do interact with the adults from the professions. This is because all the kids go to the same school. There is only 1 school. I was a bright working class kid, one of my best friends during primary school was from a highly educated middle class family. We were always sat together, as I guess the teachers thought we would be good for each other somehow. I was much better than him academically (guess he wasnt interested) but he was years ahead of me and everyone else in terms of worldiness and 'suss' because he had older very clever sisters and parents.
 
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Yeah, I missed that when I read MSB's post before. What is he on about? I was the son of the headteacher and I grew up with kids who's dads worked down the mines and then lost their jobs thanks to the closures of the mines. Our school was a broad cross section of the local community. Children from all kinds of backgrounds.
 
Yeah, I missed that when I read MSB's post before. What is he on about? I was the son of the headteacher and I grew up with kids who's dads worked down the mines and then lost their jobs thanks to the closures of the mines. Our school was a broad cross section of the local community. Children from all kinds of backgrounds.

Was yours a rural community knockando ? I think this everyone mixing together thing might happen much more in rural communities than in cities, where everything does seem to be much more divided: the middle class kids live in expensive areas with good schools whilst the working class kids dont get the opportunity to get into the good schools, because they have the wrong postcode ?
 
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