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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Psychedelic drugs can unlock mysteries of brain - David Nutt

Ismene said:
Not sure about Nutts idea that taking psychedelics "mimics schizophrenia" - wasn't that idea demolished in the 50's? On a psychedelic you know you've taken a drug, when you have schizophrenia you think it's real. That's a pretty fundamental difference isn't it.
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Schizophrenia presents itself in different stages. There are several working theories that use 5ht2a psychedelics or NMDA antagonists to model certain aspects of the early stages, commonly referred to as the "prodrome" that proceeds florid psychosis. Which the article does mention... the fact is that neuroimaging (i.e. techniques not available in the 50s) shows some fairly strong similarities between the state of the brain on psilocybin and the state of the brain in schizophrenics, which points to some overlap. There is no suggestion that psilocybin models acute psychosis.

And I can't quite work out why he's changed to decriminalisation when he was such a fervent prohibitionist over GBL, he said something like "I have made a strong recomendation GBL is banned and I am very optimistic it will be within months. GBL is unquestionably as dangerous as GHB". He was an absolutely full-on, raging drug-warrior. If you'd breathed "How about we keep GBL legal mate?" he would have thundered abuse at you about the danger it posed to "the children".

Wonder when he had his road to Damascus moment? Or is he now just thinking he's burned his boats and legalisation is the only road that he can make any money and keep his name in the papers.
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I don't understand why this is surprising to anyone. He's never supported full legalisation of all recreational drugs. In fact, he entered most people's consciousness with his "scale of harm" back in 2007, where the suggestion was that drugs should be regulated based on their potential harms, rather than the current arbitrary fashion. You might not agree with him, but thinking that some substances (i.e. psychedelics) have low potential harm and should be less controlled, while others have higher potential harm, and should be subject to more stringent controls - is certainly a consistent position.
 
Ismene said:
^^

But you still know you're tripping don't you?
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If you had never experienced a psychedelic drug before, and someone dosed you without your knowledge, would you know you were tripping, or think you were losing your mind?

Set & setting is everything. After Albert Hofmann's famous bike ride, the fear of the unknown coloured his experience. He refers several times to concerns that he had poisoned himself, that the chemical was toxic, that "a demon had invaded me, had taken possession of my body, mind, and soul..." and "I was seized by the dreadful fear of going insane" - to give one very famous example of exposure to an unknown substance...
 
I've had a few moments on MXE when I've thought that I've actually fucked my brain and gone "insane". Strangely I've also had the serenity to accept it! But then, a few hours pass and normality returns.

It's astounding that the brain recovers (seems to, anyway!) from these utterly extraordinary states and here I am, back to normal! Or am I?

On the other hand, my friend, who's been pumped full of psychiatric "medicine", tells me he feels like half his brain is missing and he can't remember people with whom he's had life-long relationships. Or rather, he can remember their faces, knows who they are, but feels no emotional connection with them, as if they are characters in a fiction rather than real people in his life.

It's odd that our recreational drugs which are designed for fun seem to cause less damage than the "medicinal" drugs which are supposedly designed to help people.
 
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specialspack said:
I don't understand why this is surprising to anyone. He's never supported full legalisation of all recreational drugs. In fact, he entered most people's consciousness with his "scale of harm" back in 2007, where the suggestion was that drugs should be regulated based on their potential harms, rather than the current arbitrary fashion. You might not agree with him, but thinking that some substances (i.e. psychedelics) have low potential harm and should be less controlled, while others have higher potential harm, and should be subject to more stringent controls - is certainly a consistent position.
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How can it be a consistent position when he now supports decriminalisation of drugs and in 2009 he was demanding a legal drug be made illegal?
 
specialspack said:
If you had never experienced a psychedelic drug before, and someone dosed you without your knowledge, would you know you were tripping, or think you were losing your mind?
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Is this a trick question?

Didn't the CIA used to torture people by putting them to sleep, injecting them with a massive dose of LSD and then bring them round, tied upside down in a rapidly filling container of cold water.

He refers several times to concerns that he had poisoned himself

Which pretty much proves my point - if he thought he'd poisoned himself then he was perfectly aware he'd taken LSD. Y'follow?
 
Ismene said:
Is this a trick question?

Didn't the CIA used to torture people by putting them to sleep, injecting them with a massive dose of LSD and then bring them round, tied upside down in a rapidly filling container of cold water.

He refers several times to concerns that he had poisoned himself

Which pretty much proves my point - if he thought he'd poisoned himself then he was perfectly aware he'd taken LSD. Y'follow?
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Fuck it, a free trip's a free trip.
 
Ismene said:
How can it be a consistent position when he now supports decriminalisation of drugs and in 2009 he was demanding a legal drug be made illegal?
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He doesn't support decriminalisation of all drugs. He supports decriminalisation of relatively safe psychedelics, LSD, psilocybin etc.
 
On a psychedelic you know you've taken a drug, when you have schizophrenia you think it's real. That's a pretty fundamental difference isn't it.
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Don't know about that mate, yesterday I smoked some DMT on top of a fat dose of MXE and was pretty convinced that I needed a sectioning (for about 5 minutes).
 
Vader said:
Don't know about that mate, yesterday I smoked some DMT on top of a fat dose of MXE and was pretty convinced that I needed a sectioning (for about 5 minutes).
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Likewise. 3-MeO-PCP, not DMT/MXE but I was convinced I'd lost my mind.
 
In fairness, I can't think of a time when I've thought I've lost it when it was purely psychedelics involved, it's those dirty rotten dissociatives that give you the impression of insanity.
 
Vader said:
In fairness, I can't think of a time when I've thought I've lost it when it was purely psychedelics involved, it's those dirty rotten dissociatives that give you the impression of insanity.
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I think it's the way they distort reality rather than replacing it, it's too believable. At non-hole doses anyway. Yet to find a hole on 3-MeO-PCP, always go batshit before I get there.
 
Probably best not to look too far. I've looked, can't find one. FnB looked, found one.
 
I think that any ArC6N (is that working for anyone else?) without a ketone on the ring is not something that you want to look for a hole with, given that you're likely to be up and about and doing some buck wild naked cannibal shit. I don't know anything about SAR though.
 
knockando said:
I think it's the way they distort reality rather than replacing it, it's too believable. At non-hole doses anyway. Yet to find a hole on 3-MeO-PCP, always go batshit before I get there.
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This happened to me and my flatmate on 3-meo-pcp last week. Found myself sitting in the corner of his (third floor) room, hanging half out the window, desperately trying to bleed the jet lighter, hurriedly and repeatedly flicking the switch, while he was convincing it was going to explode and kept edging further and further away, freaking me the fuck out while I just kept muttering under my breath (or possibly in my head) "manic panic hispanic titanic volcanic splanchnic" etc etc over and over.

Had to resort to opioids, benzos and aMT to sort ourselves out. Actually ended up being quite a good night, but don't think I'll be touching the 3-meo-pcp again. I think the scary thing about it is that, like most dissociatives, you have no idea what the fuck is going on, but unlike other dissociatives you are convinced that you do. It's only when you look at the list of arylcyclohexylamine rules that you drew up (in the spirit of harm reduction, because you know you never have a clue) that you realise you've broken every single one of them.
 
specialspack said:
He doesn't support decriminalisation of all drugs. He supports decriminalisation of relatively safe psychedelics, LSD, psilocybin etc.
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^This.

And I'm apt to agree with the man...though I'd prefer to increase treatment resources and reduce incarceration for all drug users.
 
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