Roger&Me
Bluelight Crew
Strassman's work is pseudoscience. He makes claims and fails to support them with evidence.
There is zero evidence to suggest that endogenous DMT plays a role in any type of sensory phenomenon.
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It is possible to trip without drugs...
- Thread starter bluedom
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Strassman's work is pseudoscience. He makes claims and fails to support them with evidence.
There is zero evidence to suggest that endogenous DMT plays a role in any type of sensory phenomenon.
webbykevin
Bluelighter
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Looking forward to Strassman's next book, "The chupacubras and their native habitat".
What happens if there is a entire memory of a previous tripping experiences (or even memories (in plural) spliced together?). And you an experience the memory when you wil it?
I like the clever response. I agree. So what does it mean? I suggest that we don't that yet since we cant see past the choices we don't understand. If one day someone does prove Straussman right (I'm not saying this is the side I'm taking personally), then "speculated" could mean "theorised". If one day someone falisfies what Strausmann said (and I'm not saying this is the side I'm taking personally either) then "speculated" could mean something more pejorative. So I'm saying the full context isn't there yet to evaluate its full meaning. If you do take sides, then it's just that: taking sides. You're making it up in you r own mind model as to which side to take. But not only does the current evidence not suggest Straussman right, it also suggests that a judgement on whether Straussman right or not is a logical falacy.
Roger&Me
Bluelight Crew
In addition to there being no evidence to support Strassman's claims, there is also a body of contradictory evidence suggesting that endogenous DMT is present in only trace amounts, far less than would be necessary to catalyze a psychedelic experience. Strassman is almost certainly wrong (read: he *is* wrong) about endogenous DMT being involved in dreaming or other sensory phenomena, because examination of the existing evidence suggests this conclusion. No fallacious reasoning there.
But isn't it possible that endogeneous DMT may be produced in high amounts under certain conditions that we've never observed? For example, I believe we've never measured what happens during a "real" near death experience (i.e., in the seconds during). The rate of DMT metabolisation may be high enough that after a few minutes the instant high dose is metabolised. I am just speculating here. The point is that we don't know everything about biology.
But more to the point, do you dismiss all natural mechanisms in the brain that could induce an altered state that is identical in terms of look and feel to a DMT experience? Perhaps just an intense memory?
I've had light DMT trips before and I am 100% sure I get to that state without drugs. I've had extremely intense DXM experiences (4th and sigma plateaus) and I can get to about 50-80% of those states without any drugs now.
But more to the point, do you dismiss all natural mechanisms in the brain that could induce an altered state that is identical in terms of look and feel to a DMT experience? Perhaps just an intense memory?
I've had light DMT trips before and I am 100% sure I get to that state without drugs. I've had extremely intense DXM experiences (4th and sigma plateaus) and I can get to about 50-80% of those states without any drugs now.
Roger&Me
Bluelight Crew
Saying "its possible" because "we don't know everything about biology" is specious reasoning. The current evidence, as published in the peer reviewed literature, suggests that endogenous DMT cannot play a role in any type of sensory experience because it is present in very tiny amounts. I don't know what else to say. To the best of mankind's knowledge right now, endogenous DMT release is not the way it works -- why go down that path because there is a negligible but non-zero chance it may be right?
The brain is the most complicated system in the known universe, the mechanism underlying spontaneously occurring perceptual disturbances is likely much more nuanced than simply "massive DMT release". If I were to throw out a mechanism just as a very basic starting point for further inquiry, I would probably posit that spontaneous perceptual disturbances may be caused by perturbations in secondary signalling processes in cortical pyramidal cells.. (as long as we're in the mood for speculation).
The point is I picked an idea that's plausible based on what we already know about the brain, and that at least doesn't already have a large body of evidence contradicting it. Strassman chose an idea that isn't even very plausible based upon what we know about the brain, and one where strong evidence already exists to disconfirm it. Even in the realm of wild speculation he fails.
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<SpaceHead>
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I'm with roger&me on this one. Even from a subjective standpoint comparing reports of NDE's with DMT trips they're profoundly different. People say I saw my life flash before my eyes and saw a white tunnel of light not I saw multi dimensional foam oriental robot machines flash before my eyes and saw a tunnel of brilliant kaleidoscopic jewels. I imagine it to be a process more like dissociative drugs which are antagonists rather than agonists, shutting down large areas of the brain. They even have some similar characteristics, like seeing ones body from above and time slowing down. Not saying there is some endogenous ketamine to be found in the brain but it sounds like more of a process of the brain shutting down rather than being lit up by a potent serotonin agonist.
No offense to the above poster but it can be very silly when people come to drastic and unreasonable conclusions about science just because it would be really cool in some kind of neo-hippie new age way. Like the movie the void, or the impression i get from alot of the culture surrounding alex grey and stuff like that. To me psychedelics point to the fact that there are so many unknowns and uncertainties, the opposite direction of this kind of perspective. To me it seems like using psychedelics to find "the answer" but they're just doors that lead to hallways of more doors that lead to the same endlessly.
No offense to the above poster but it can be very silly when people come to drastic and unreasonable conclusions about science just because it would be really cool in some kind of neo-hippie new age way. Like the movie the void, or the impression i get from alot of the culture surrounding alex grey and stuff like that. To me psychedelics point to the fact that there are so many unknowns and uncertainties, the opposite direction of this kind of perspective. To me it seems like using psychedelics to find "the answer" but they're just doors that lead to hallways of more doors that lead to the same endlessly.
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Not 50 years. I once had a week long zen retreat and I went into it not at beginner level but I wasn't that experienced either.
There were maybe 5 sessions a day, I'm not sure exactly. 45 or 60 minutes IIRC. This was combined with kinhin (walking meditation outside in a huge yard, not just walking - there was a special way to it). The rest of the time people took walks during the forest (it was in spring). We stayed in a big and very comfortable log cabin. Awesome fireplace, nice places to chill out and contemplate, lots of different sorts of tea were being had - which I must say was pretty much the best tea I ever had.
Also everybody was silent during the whole retreat except for necessary talk, practical stuff. And also sometimes a short story or koan was told at the start of meditation. There is another exception, I'll get to that.
Now my point: about halfway into the week I started getting more and more trance-like and sensory deprivation (at least deprivation of change in stimuli) like effects such as my vision becoming inverted (like a negative of a photo: black is white, white becomes black, etc). This proceeded into the following days getting more pronounced, and I started feeling like I had a gradual but significant alteration of state of consciousness. I started getting acid-like visuals but not those from a chaotic trip but instead a crystal clear trip. Or to be more precise: it started out trippy, then got stronger, then it dissolved and gave way to this crystal-clear type feeling from LSD.
There were a few private meetings with the Zen master, to discuss the development/progress or rather for guidance. I described the changes in perception and consciousness to him. He thought it was a little uncommon to have them so soon but I guess I should give my history of psychedelics use a lot of credit.
He told me in buddhism the phenomenon I experienced is called makyō: which translates to ghost cave or devil's cave. This should not be interpreted as something evil but rather illusions and tricks played on the mind in the process of some transformation. He said one must not be distracted by the trippy illusions, you must pass through it.
(I realized that LSD and other psychedelics can also have these sort of stages. At the peak there is a lot of trippiness but the last part of the plateau tends to become more 'crystal clear' feeling. My best friend and I became fans of starting with a 150-200 ug dose, then when the clear part of the trip started, take a mega redose. This seems to give the strongest clarity with relatively little 'distortion'. Conversely, when the initial dose is a mega dose there is relatively a lot mind warping. If you go even higher with both initial dose and redoses, then you can get to another level IME, where there is no more question of confusion but a feeling of being saturated with acid, feeling super liquid and dissolved into surroundings. Add sensory deprivation to that and you get a journey through imagination + reliving memories and other things.)
At the end of the week me and my best friend, who also participated, went on a long walk through the woods. I was on the verge of a ++++ and everything I saw was exceptionally beautiful and I felt deep serenity and peace from all the meditation and realizations or revelations I had during all that contemplation.
TL;DR = For me a week was enough to trip from meditation
And I disagree that this natural trip was DMT-like, more like something in between LSD and mescaline but a more pure feeling than even the purest LSD or mescaline. The reason for that seems to me to be the natural and relatively slow development, while trips tend to feel like you get more than you can integrate (what is not yet integrated during the trip must be integrated afterwards)
With meditation the integration is in realtime.
<SpaceHead>
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man i have to that that week long meditation! that would be anazing, pretty intimidating though! theres quit alot of time, to think, think, think, think,
webbykevin
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I did a 10 day Vipassna retreat once where you spent the whole time in silence not making eye contact with anyone, and you only got plain unspiced brown rice to eat, that was pretty intense and I agree that the integration of stuff is a lot more solid and permanent than a 10 hour LSD overload where 90% of what you saw is forgotten.
Also, after 10 days of brown rice eating a lettuce leaf blew my mind, total sensory overload, who would have thought eh.
Also, after 10 days of brown rice eating a lettuce leaf blew my mind, total sensory overload, who would have thought eh.
BlindSoothsayer
Bluelighter
Have a nice trip, see you next fall.
XTC_fiend
Bluelighter
You are partially right. The pineal gland contains a little more than small quantities of DMT and while you sleep only small quantities are released and medium to heavy quantities are released during R.E.M sleep.
before death all of the DMT that is currently in the pineal gland is released which is short acting yet very very potent, more so than common recreational doses.
There is much documented work by notable scientists that prove DMT to be the chemical responsible for dreams and that it is possible to release enough amounts of DMT to induce a trip like experience during meditation. Yes the amount is small as you have stated but enough to become active to a noticeable point.
I find it odd that you seem to not have much knowledge about this subject seeing how you contributed to the thread in the link below which discusses DMT release whilst dreaming and before death.
Post #40 on the page
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/428170-DMT-released-upon-death/page2
Not trying to sound like a jerk it just irks me when people send out their opinions which they believe to be true when there are many articles and books published that can all disprove your statement.
false information taints the mind and is eventually passed down thus creating controversy when all you need to do is read an article of research by notable scientist.
No harsh feelings intended.
ParappaTheRapper
Ex-Bluelighter
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Roger&Me
Bluelight Crew
Incorrect. Everything you said is completely and totally wrong. I challenge you to produce even 1 single article in a tier-1 peer-reviewed publication to support these claims.
Again, I challenge you to produce even a single article in a tier-1 peer-reviewed publication to support your claims regarding endogenous DMT being involved in any type of sensory phenomenon.
I don't have much knowledge? Forgive me if I take that comment personally. Not to sound like a dick, but next year I'll be a grad student in medicinal chemistry, and I've probably read 100+ peer-reviewed articles on psychedelic pharmacology. Again, not trying to be confrontational, but what is your level of education in the field?
And my reply to that thread you linked to was posted 3 years ago, and contains nothing claiming DMT release has any effect whatsoever. That post you referenced was (quite obviously) made in jest.
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ParappaTheRapper
Ex-Bluelighter
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Roger&Me
Bluelight Crew
I'm not quit sure I follow... you're saying that because both DMT and melatonin can be biosynthesized from 5-HT, therefore DMT plays a role in dreaming? Correct me if my interpretation of what you're saying is wrong, but that doesn't seem like a very convincing connection. Also, I glanced over that paper but I didn't see anything that seems to indicate endogenous DMT plays a role in dreaming....
In my honest opinion, which I base on what I know of the current research, I really don't think endogenous DMT plays much role in anything in the human body. Its probably just a metabolic byproduct. But, if someone were to produce convincing evidence that DMT is responsible for dreaming and other sensory phenomena, I would be thrilled. I'm just interested in knowing the way things really are.
ParappaTheRapper
Ex-Bluelighter
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biffhenderson
Bluelighter
I'm frankly surprised at the strong response. Not proper to go around speaking like gospel? No one cares? Is there some hostility towards Strassman here?