Aetherius Rimor
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2012
- Messages
- 404
This post turned in to a large rant/transcription of my belief for personal understanding. TLDR version at the bottom.
Understanding them comes naturally to me, even the part where you must be skeptical of all statistics until you understand exactly how they are acquired.
Unfortunately statistics are too easily used to mislead someone who is unable to verify the source and meaning of the numbers. That is more attributable to human nature and the desire to manipulate others for self gain though, than an inherent problem in the statistics themselves. They are a tool to interpret reality and a tool is neutral, the user is not.
They however are far from aesthetic in my line of work, and extremely useful in obtaining functional results. The field of artificial intelligence relies on them heavily, as statistics assist the software in learning probabilities of outcomes as the result of an action it may perform. Knowing the probabilities allows the ability to properly weigh the risks and rewards of any given action, and to determine the best course of action.
The stochastic and continuous nature of our universe makes decisions based on statistics and probabilities boil down to at best an educated guess... but an educated guess is still far better than a flip of the coin.
I understand your fears. From an AI development standpoint, you have a belief based on your specific circumstances/place in the world, which makes your belief perfectly valid and correct for -your- situation.
I don't like looking at a topic that affects everyone though from the perspective of isolated viewpoints. So when it comes to what's the "safest" recreation drug, it really comes down to your specific set of circumstances. You must realize however that bluelighters are a statistical minority of the drug using population set.
With that in mind, the correct viewpoint for a "generalized" unspecific situation, should be based on the statistics of -all- drug users. Not just the high functioning ones, not just the knowledgeable ones, not just rock bottom ones, not just the ignorant ones.
From that specifics ignorant view point, psychedelics are far safer than majority of drugs physically and mentally.
However the following situations would make them far less safe:
1. Emotionally and mentally unstable individuals without the discipline to recognize their weaknesses and account for them. I for example have a mood disorder, bi-polar. Had I not spent years learning to discipline my actions, self-analyze my emotional state, and overcome my desires to give into them, psychedelics would probably have royally screwed me over psychologically. With that in mind, I would never say psychedelics are safe for such a person. Even if I come to know them, and believe in their capabilities to self-analyze their personal cognition, and account for their level of emotional or mental psychosis, I'd still advise against exploring them without taking extreme precaution.
2. Younger people who are still emotionally/mentally immature, where they may be unable to handle the life changing aspects of psychedelics. They are already trying to handle the life changing aspects of a developing mind... throwing more at them to try and integrate into their life could be devastating. Psychiatrists have studied the effects of psychotropic drugs on adolescent minds, are willing to and legally allowed to take liability for the result of their prescriptions. As such, I have no problem with them being allowed to give drugs to adolescents in controlled/clinical manners. However I still think patients should have far more say in what drugs they experiment with, and should be more fully informed about the risks and effects of what is given to them.
3. A person who does not fully understand what they are getting themselves into. Education and research can resolve this however.
4. Anyone with severe risk taking behaviors. The type to say "you're taking one? I'll take 10, because I'm a badass".
5. Anyone who is irresponsible and incapable of making good choices, regardless of their knowledge of the risks.
-----
Those situations, are the "personal" situations that lead to the devastating scenarios we hear about, in regards to psychedelics. There are of course malicious acts/accidents that contribute to the possibility of a devastating scenario. I've seen people freak out after being dosed, where the guy accidently squeezed the bottle too hard, giving them way too much than they intended to take.
The two devastating scenarios I went through with two of my good friends, I can attribute to the original 5 reasons. The first person I spoke of, who was always a bit "out there", was a combination of scenario 1 and scenario 5. They were very educated about acid, they fully understood the risks, they were not a risk taker, but they did have underlying emotional problems, and they were very irresponsible. They spilled their vial and ended up tripping off around 30 to 50 hits of real Ehrlich reagent tested acid, that the old schoolers estimated to be around 250 mics based on their 20 or so years of experience with acid.
The second person this happened to, was a combination 1, 3 and 4, also with Ehrlich reagent tested batch, but slightly less potent, probably around 100 to 150 a drop.
1. He didn't fully understand the risks, and probably had some underlying mental issues that no one was aware of, if you believe that people who are very brilliant/geniuess have a statistically higher chance of having a mental illness.
3. It was third time to try it, and he had very little understanding yet of how devastating the consequences could be.
4. He took 20 hits (risk taking behavior).
Didn't help that his dealer was one of those shady fucks that had little respect for the substance or their customers, as long as they had money. They got out of meth sales, and went into psychedelic sales... if that helps show what type of person they were.
-----
Whether X is safer than Y is entirely circumstantial. There are many situations where psychedelics are far less safe than say MDMA, Cocaine, Meth, etc.
But population wide, the statistics show that psychedelics in general, are far safer.
Statistics don't lie, they can only mislead. And they only mislead the uninformed.
I use them all the time, and they always give the best results. Whether developing AI, determining the most profitable business choice, or determining the best course of action for my own life... they always are extremely useful and reliable.
That and from a psychological standpoint, if you rely on statistics as just -one- piece of datum in your decision making process, and also account for all the other data present to come to a conclusion... it makes it very easy to rationalize your decision should you suffer negative consequences. You won't suffer from the guilt of making a bad decision, when you can honestly say that given the choice again, with all the information you had when you made it, you'd make the same decision.
Sure we've gone a bit off topic in this thread, but I really think this thread has been a learning experience for me. It triggered some conversations with friends of mine about the concept of statistics, and allowed me to solidify my beliefs as far as the level of safety psychedelics truly hold.
None of my beliefs have changed, but I definitely have a clearer idea of why I believe what I do, and the specifics.
Those with the psychedelic superiority complex have been just as mislead as those with a distrust/hatred of psychedelics in my opinion. The beliefs stem from a very small data set of experiences which lead to a very skewed understanding of them.
I remember when I first started taking psychedelics... I was absolutely baffled at how anyone could not like them. I was confused as to how anyone could have a bad experience with them. I didn't understand why. So the majority of my trips through the first few months using... those were predominating thoughts that I was trying to process and come to a rational belief about their value and use in my life, and humans and general.
The day I realized that my almost consistently positive experiences with them, were due to my personal set and setting choices, was pretty "enlightening" so to speak. I approached them with caution, I researched them thoroughly before experimenting, I had already learned self-discipline and self-analysis of my mental states, I was a very risk averse person, and I was already emotionally/mentally mature (in my mid 20s).
I did not fall into any of the circumstances I today know of that lead to devastating results. I'm sure if I had been one of the unfortunate people to get half a bottle squirted into my mouth the first time I tried them, or if I had tried them earlier in life, or if I hadn't researched before consuming, my opinion would be drastically different at first.
These are the reasons that I believe psychedelics should be treated as a "sacrament" or "privilege". Not because there is anything holy about them. Not because I'm an elitist and believe only superior people should use them. I believe that, because I am fully aware of the negative consequences irresponsible, uninformed, and unprepared usage entails.
Used properly, though... psychedelics are absolutely amazing drugs. All drugs are absolutely amazing drugs when used properly though.
Amphetamines are absolutely amazing when properly used in a therapeutic fashion for those with ADD/ADHD. They have allowed me to focus and work, instead of daydreaming. Now that I no longer sit around the office daydreaming and then panicking last minute to finish my assignments, I have far less stress, and feel far less guilty billing hours I wasn't actually working. In retrospect... I think the adrenaline rush of an impending deadline I'm about to miss functioned in the same way that amphetamines do to help me focus.
MDMA is an absolutely amazing drug when someone suffers from social anxiety, and was never able to learn how to be social. I used MDMA weekly, tapered off to monthly, and now rarely use it. My intense social anxiety is now gone. For the first time in my life (again, mid-late 20s now), I have a social life. I know how to act around people, I'm confident in my ability to do so, because MDMA removed my social anxiety and allowed me to learn how to do so. After learning how, I still am anxious, but I have no fear at my abilities so that anxiety is merely a minor inhibitor rather than a blocker.
Benzos, Niacinamide, Valerian root... they all are absolutely amazing when my mind will not shut off and I can't sleep... allowing me to keep a regular sleep schedule, reduce overwhelming anxiety and lower blood pressure if it gets to high to protect my heart.
Opiates are also absolutely amazing... shutting off the physical pain of an injury I have treated and can't do anything about. Shutting off the emotional pain during emotionally traumatic events to allow me to function where otherwise all I could do is dwell on it or sleep. Also effective for same things that Benzos are.
Psychedelics... the reason they are so absolutely amazing to me, is their purpose is two fold. First, their purpose as a therapeutic drug, is one of amazing power. They don't treat physical ailments, other than a few cases like Psilocybin treating cluster headaches, or acting as a neuroprotectant in lab studies of Olney lesions in rats subjected to Ketamine.
Psychedelics primary therapeutic purpose, is for resolving behavioral and identity related problems. They have proven effective in treating addiction (behavioral). Not sure if proven or not, but there are countless stories of their ability to assist someone suffering from a spiritual or identity related crisis or issue.
I was agnostic my whole life before them. My family is full of devout, but open minded and tolerant, Christians. I could never feel or believe what they do though. Not until psychedelics, did I ever feel "spiritual" feelings, and after usage for awhile I finally solidified my personal spiritual beliefs. No longer do I question what I believe, no longer do I dwell on it for hours or have anxiety about it. I'm spiritually fulfilled. Regardless of your beliefs, spiritual fulfillment is a very psychologically healthy, as long as it doesn't turn into a justification/rationalization for unhealthy behaviors.
My personal identity was also equally unestablished until I began usage of psychedelics. I knew what I liked, I knew some of the things I believed, I knew the things I wanted to do. That didn't tell me who I was though. After using them for a period of time, I finally solidified that as well. No longer do I question who I am, or if what I'm doing is true to myself. I know who I am now.
Their other usage, non-therapeutic, is one that increases performance. While most drugs increase performance, they do so by correcting a problem, not by giving abilities. Opiates increase performance by allowing you to focus on whatever you're doing, rather than the pain. That is not giving you a new ability though. Stimulants and psychedelics are the only two drugs I currently consider performance enhancing drugs.
Stimulants are obvious. Psychedelics though, their performance enhancing abilities are abstract and difficult (but not impossible) to measure. The increase performance when it comes to understanding/visualizing abstract concepts. They increase performance in non-linear thinking. They increase sensory perception performance in some regards (while hindering them in others).
Ever listened to full on psytrance sober? It sounds like a cacophony of sounds to me. On psychedelics though, I can hear each individual melody/instrument and the patterns. When watching the person live producing the music, I can easily hear the sound produced by the button/slider they just used. I can see the flow of the music, and I can see awesome little "tricks" the musician is doing. One time, I saw him get this huge grin on his face, and then he set up all the loops of all the parts in such a way, that 30 seconds after he did so, the full on cacophony of sound that I could hear each individual piece of, there was a 3 second complete silence where only two of them played in such a manner that it was absolutely beautiful, and then the cacophony began again.
Software development on psychedelics for me, allows me to expand my ability to visualize all the structures of code, the objects, how they interact together, the flow of information and determine what needs to be added where, and what will happen if I make certain changes.
Then... there is the personal usage for me that psychedelics have. With my passion for cognitive science and artificial intelligence... the usage of psychedelics is incredibly useful for reverse engineering the human brain/consciousness. But that is pretty unrelated to most people, and a very personal usage.
----
TLDR Version:
1. Statistics are useful and very meaningful, but can be used inappropriately to mislead people.
2. People with a psychedelic superiority complex upset me.
3. People who think psychedelics are horrible, or worse than other drugs, equally upset me.
4. ALL drugs are awesome when used properly as tools, for the right purposes, in moderation, and with full understanding of their risks and effects.
Understanding them comes naturally to me, even the part where you must be skeptical of all statistics until you understand exactly how they are acquired.
Unfortunately statistics are too easily used to mislead someone who is unable to verify the source and meaning of the numbers. That is more attributable to human nature and the desire to manipulate others for self gain though, than an inherent problem in the statistics themselves. They are a tool to interpret reality and a tool is neutral, the user is not.
They however are far from aesthetic in my line of work, and extremely useful in obtaining functional results. The field of artificial intelligence relies on them heavily, as statistics assist the software in learning probabilities of outcomes as the result of an action it may perform. Knowing the probabilities allows the ability to properly weigh the risks and rewards of any given action, and to determine the best course of action.
The stochastic and continuous nature of our universe makes decisions based on statistics and probabilities boil down to at best an educated guess... but an educated guess is still far better than a flip of the coin.
I understand your fears. From an AI development standpoint, you have a belief based on your specific circumstances/place in the world, which makes your belief perfectly valid and correct for -your- situation.
I don't like looking at a topic that affects everyone though from the perspective of isolated viewpoints. So when it comes to what's the "safest" recreation drug, it really comes down to your specific set of circumstances. You must realize however that bluelighters are a statistical minority of the drug using population set.
With that in mind, the correct viewpoint for a "generalized" unspecific situation, should be based on the statistics of -all- drug users. Not just the high functioning ones, not just the knowledgeable ones, not just rock bottom ones, not just the ignorant ones.
From that specifics ignorant view point, psychedelics are far safer than majority of drugs physically and mentally.
However the following situations would make them far less safe:
1. Emotionally and mentally unstable individuals without the discipline to recognize their weaknesses and account for them. I for example have a mood disorder, bi-polar. Had I not spent years learning to discipline my actions, self-analyze my emotional state, and overcome my desires to give into them, psychedelics would probably have royally screwed me over psychologically. With that in mind, I would never say psychedelics are safe for such a person. Even if I come to know them, and believe in their capabilities to self-analyze their personal cognition, and account for their level of emotional or mental psychosis, I'd still advise against exploring them without taking extreme precaution.
2. Younger people who are still emotionally/mentally immature, where they may be unable to handle the life changing aspects of psychedelics. They are already trying to handle the life changing aspects of a developing mind... throwing more at them to try and integrate into their life could be devastating. Psychiatrists have studied the effects of psychotropic drugs on adolescent minds, are willing to and legally allowed to take liability for the result of their prescriptions. As such, I have no problem with them being allowed to give drugs to adolescents in controlled/clinical manners. However I still think patients should have far more say in what drugs they experiment with, and should be more fully informed about the risks and effects of what is given to them.
3. A person who does not fully understand what they are getting themselves into. Education and research can resolve this however.
4. Anyone with severe risk taking behaviors. The type to say "you're taking one? I'll take 10, because I'm a badass".
5. Anyone who is irresponsible and incapable of making good choices, regardless of their knowledge of the risks.
-----
Those situations, are the "personal" situations that lead to the devastating scenarios we hear about, in regards to psychedelics. There are of course malicious acts/accidents that contribute to the possibility of a devastating scenario. I've seen people freak out after being dosed, where the guy accidently squeezed the bottle too hard, giving them way too much than they intended to take.
The two devastating scenarios I went through with two of my good friends, I can attribute to the original 5 reasons. The first person I spoke of, who was always a bit "out there", was a combination of scenario 1 and scenario 5. They were very educated about acid, they fully understood the risks, they were not a risk taker, but they did have underlying emotional problems, and they were very irresponsible. They spilled their vial and ended up tripping off around 30 to 50 hits of real Ehrlich reagent tested acid, that the old schoolers estimated to be around 250 mics based on their 20 or so years of experience with acid.
The second person this happened to, was a combination 1, 3 and 4, also with Ehrlich reagent tested batch, but slightly less potent, probably around 100 to 150 a drop.
1. He didn't fully understand the risks, and probably had some underlying mental issues that no one was aware of, if you believe that people who are very brilliant/geniuess have a statistically higher chance of having a mental illness.
3. It was third time to try it, and he had very little understanding yet of how devastating the consequences could be.
4. He took 20 hits (risk taking behavior).
Didn't help that his dealer was one of those shady fucks that had little respect for the substance or their customers, as long as they had money. They got out of meth sales, and went into psychedelic sales... if that helps show what type of person they were.
-----
Whether X is safer than Y is entirely circumstantial. There are many situations where psychedelics are far less safe than say MDMA, Cocaine, Meth, etc.
But population wide, the statistics show that psychedelics in general, are far safer.
Statistics don't lie, they can only mislead. And they only mislead the uninformed.
I use them all the time, and they always give the best results. Whether developing AI, determining the most profitable business choice, or determining the best course of action for my own life... they always are extremely useful and reliable.
That and from a psychological standpoint, if you rely on statistics as just -one- piece of datum in your decision making process, and also account for all the other data present to come to a conclusion... it makes it very easy to rationalize your decision should you suffer negative consequences. You won't suffer from the guilt of making a bad decision, when you can honestly say that given the choice again, with all the information you had when you made it, you'd make the same decision.
Sure we've gone a bit off topic in this thread, but I really think this thread has been a learning experience for me. It triggered some conversations with friends of mine about the concept of statistics, and allowed me to solidify my beliefs as far as the level of safety psychedelics truly hold.
None of my beliefs have changed, but I definitely have a clearer idea of why I believe what I do, and the specifics.
Those with the psychedelic superiority complex have been just as mislead as those with a distrust/hatred of psychedelics in my opinion. The beliefs stem from a very small data set of experiences which lead to a very skewed understanding of them.
I remember when I first started taking psychedelics... I was absolutely baffled at how anyone could not like them. I was confused as to how anyone could have a bad experience with them. I didn't understand why. So the majority of my trips through the first few months using... those were predominating thoughts that I was trying to process and come to a rational belief about their value and use in my life, and humans and general.
The day I realized that my almost consistently positive experiences with them, were due to my personal set and setting choices, was pretty "enlightening" so to speak. I approached them with caution, I researched them thoroughly before experimenting, I had already learned self-discipline and self-analysis of my mental states, I was a very risk averse person, and I was already emotionally/mentally mature (in my mid 20s).
I did not fall into any of the circumstances I today know of that lead to devastating results. I'm sure if I had been one of the unfortunate people to get half a bottle squirted into my mouth the first time I tried them, or if I had tried them earlier in life, or if I hadn't researched before consuming, my opinion would be drastically different at first.
These are the reasons that I believe psychedelics should be treated as a "sacrament" or "privilege". Not because there is anything holy about them. Not because I'm an elitist and believe only superior people should use them. I believe that, because I am fully aware of the negative consequences irresponsible, uninformed, and unprepared usage entails.
Used properly, though... psychedelics are absolutely amazing drugs. All drugs are absolutely amazing drugs when used properly though.
Amphetamines are absolutely amazing when properly used in a therapeutic fashion for those with ADD/ADHD. They have allowed me to focus and work, instead of daydreaming. Now that I no longer sit around the office daydreaming and then panicking last minute to finish my assignments, I have far less stress, and feel far less guilty billing hours I wasn't actually working. In retrospect... I think the adrenaline rush of an impending deadline I'm about to miss functioned in the same way that amphetamines do to help me focus.
MDMA is an absolutely amazing drug when someone suffers from social anxiety, and was never able to learn how to be social. I used MDMA weekly, tapered off to monthly, and now rarely use it. My intense social anxiety is now gone. For the first time in my life (again, mid-late 20s now), I have a social life. I know how to act around people, I'm confident in my ability to do so, because MDMA removed my social anxiety and allowed me to learn how to do so. After learning how, I still am anxious, but I have no fear at my abilities so that anxiety is merely a minor inhibitor rather than a blocker.
Benzos, Niacinamide, Valerian root... they all are absolutely amazing when my mind will not shut off and I can't sleep... allowing me to keep a regular sleep schedule, reduce overwhelming anxiety and lower blood pressure if it gets to high to protect my heart.
Opiates are also absolutely amazing... shutting off the physical pain of an injury I have treated and can't do anything about. Shutting off the emotional pain during emotionally traumatic events to allow me to function where otherwise all I could do is dwell on it or sleep. Also effective for same things that Benzos are.
Psychedelics... the reason they are so absolutely amazing to me, is their purpose is two fold. First, their purpose as a therapeutic drug, is one of amazing power. They don't treat physical ailments, other than a few cases like Psilocybin treating cluster headaches, or acting as a neuroprotectant in lab studies of Olney lesions in rats subjected to Ketamine.
Psychedelics primary therapeutic purpose, is for resolving behavioral and identity related problems. They have proven effective in treating addiction (behavioral). Not sure if proven or not, but there are countless stories of their ability to assist someone suffering from a spiritual or identity related crisis or issue.
I was agnostic my whole life before them. My family is full of devout, but open minded and tolerant, Christians. I could never feel or believe what they do though. Not until psychedelics, did I ever feel "spiritual" feelings, and after usage for awhile I finally solidified my personal spiritual beliefs. No longer do I question what I believe, no longer do I dwell on it for hours or have anxiety about it. I'm spiritually fulfilled. Regardless of your beliefs, spiritual fulfillment is a very psychologically healthy, as long as it doesn't turn into a justification/rationalization for unhealthy behaviors.
My personal identity was also equally unestablished until I began usage of psychedelics. I knew what I liked, I knew some of the things I believed, I knew the things I wanted to do. That didn't tell me who I was though. After using them for a period of time, I finally solidified that as well. No longer do I question who I am, or if what I'm doing is true to myself. I know who I am now.
Their other usage, non-therapeutic, is one that increases performance. While most drugs increase performance, they do so by correcting a problem, not by giving abilities. Opiates increase performance by allowing you to focus on whatever you're doing, rather than the pain. That is not giving you a new ability though. Stimulants and psychedelics are the only two drugs I currently consider performance enhancing drugs.
Stimulants are obvious. Psychedelics though, their performance enhancing abilities are abstract and difficult (but not impossible) to measure. The increase performance when it comes to understanding/visualizing abstract concepts. They increase performance in non-linear thinking. They increase sensory perception performance in some regards (while hindering them in others).
Ever listened to full on psytrance sober? It sounds like a cacophony of sounds to me. On psychedelics though, I can hear each individual melody/instrument and the patterns. When watching the person live producing the music, I can easily hear the sound produced by the button/slider they just used. I can see the flow of the music, and I can see awesome little "tricks" the musician is doing. One time, I saw him get this huge grin on his face, and then he set up all the loops of all the parts in such a way, that 30 seconds after he did so, the full on cacophony of sound that I could hear each individual piece of, there was a 3 second complete silence where only two of them played in such a manner that it was absolutely beautiful, and then the cacophony began again.
Software development on psychedelics for me, allows me to expand my ability to visualize all the structures of code, the objects, how they interact together, the flow of information and determine what needs to be added where, and what will happen if I make certain changes.
Then... there is the personal usage for me that psychedelics have. With my passion for cognitive science and artificial intelligence... the usage of psychedelics is incredibly useful for reverse engineering the human brain/consciousness. But that is pretty unrelated to most people, and a very personal usage.
----
TLDR Version:
1. Statistics are useful and very meaningful, but can be used inappropriately to mislead people.
2. People with a psychedelic superiority complex upset me.
3. People who think psychedelics are horrible, or worse than other drugs, equally upset me.
4. ALL drugs are awesome when used properly as tools, for the right purposes, in moderation, and with full understanding of their risks and effects.
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suggesting they are no good. Another silly superficial societal narrative I have difficulties to let go of (sorry I couldn't resist) is clustered around a body of experience which made me to doubt that deliriants serve much purposes as a class, but the only reason may be that I'm just unaware of ways to use them which would lead me to change my view.
