Superiority

[shimazu]

Anyone who has to brag about stuff they do on the internet probably doesnt have much going for them IRL.

At least thats how I always looked at it.

And for every person being a psychadelic-snob or what-have-you there are probably 10 who takes psychs and dont act like that at all.

 

[6apbhmm]

It may sound stange, but I wouldn't like if psychs changed me even in a "good way". Not that I consider myself a great nor perfect person, thats bullshit only people with unhealthy high self-esteem can say but I just don't want any drug to change who I AM. Be it change for worse or better, it wouldn't be me anymore. I somehow like my bad sides too.
That's probably why I don't generally like psychs much, exceptions are LSD which I take 3 or 4 times a year and 6-APB which isnt too psychedelic in normal doses.

 

[SpecialK_]

Just because something can't kill you doesnt mean it can't be harmful, mushrooms can definetly take a toll on your mind and are not safe in that sense. Also im pretty sure quite a few people in the last 2000 years have died because of doing stupid shit on mushrooms.

While I have nothing to contribute to this thread on topic, as it's pretty much been covered. Just to let you know that dying while doing stupid shit on mushrooms does not make mushrooms the cause of death, that's like saying driving a car while high, then crashing and dying makes grass the cause of death. It might've been a contributing factor, but it is not the cause of death.

I haven't ever heard of death from mushrooms, only from the synthetic psilocybin, the first that comes to mind is a member of the Brotherhood of Eternal Love who just completely overdosed.

The whole 'superiority' thing is definitely an issue and I've witnessed it happen to people in a negative way. People believing that they are superior than others due to their experience of psychedelics, or trying to direct others with their trips, essentially controlling them rather (attempting to send it in a certain direction) rather than just letting them enjoy it. Of course it's always good to direct at times in trips, but not throughout the entire experience or with insane ideologies. I personally believe that psychedelics have been beneficial to me and potentially made me more open minded. But I began taking them as a teenager and so that could be entirely down to maturing. I always try to take my experiences on psychedelics with a pinch of salt, rather than the complete truth, it is a drug after all and I can have some pretty insane thoughts on a few diazepam and pills too. That's not to say they should be disregarded entirely though, it does all spawn from your mind after all. It's all about finding the balance. I would believe that psychedelics definitely change you though, just like any other experience in life can.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

People believing that they are superior than others due to their experience of psychedelics, or trying to direct others with their trips, essentially controlling them rather (attempting to send it in a certain direction) rather than just letting them enjoy it.

Just to clarify, when I was speaking of "classes/training", I do mean "guide" as the best word to describe my beliefs, not direction or controlling of the trips. In my hypothetical universe where psychedelics were legal, the "permit" to use them freely as one sees fit would be dependent on them having tripped with a trained sitter who is there to explain what might happen, and answer any questions/concerns before, during and after.

Thought just occurred to me though, that it in this hypothetical universe, just like there are exceptions to laws when a legal guardian is involved, I believe it would be perfectly acceptable to have parents be that person, with or without training as long they had the "permit". In Texas for instance, minors can legally drink as long as they are with their guardian. Same would apply.

I know the people that were my guides, and the wisdom they shared, really contributed to the positive experience. Even advice like "if it starts to get to intense, find a quiet place where you can be by yourself" was really helpful. Trying to imagine the having the experience without any prior advice or warnings is a concern for me.

That and whenever I'm with someone going through it for one of their first times, if they decide they want to do something (like take a walk around the block), I always ask just one question "Is that something you normally do?". If they answer yes, all's fine, go for it! If they say no, I'd remind them that doing something in public they aren't familiar with might be disorienting.

 

[SirTophamHat]

For the sake of completeness, I am going to be that guy to come in here and say:

I do in fact believe that DMT is the holy grail capable of unlocking the universe. For what it's worth.

 

[SpecialK_]

Just to clarify, when I was speaking of "classes/training", I do mean "guide" as the best word to describe my beliefs, not direction or controlling of the trips. In my hypothetical universe where psychedelics were legal, the "permit" to use them freely as one sees fit would be dependent on them having tripped with a trained sitter who is there to explain what might happen, and answer any questions/concerns before, during and after.

Wasn't talking about you Completely agree with a trip sitter and someone to help 'guide' things in the right direction if things get confusing or go a bit off. I've just seen people in the past criticize others for doing certain things when tripping (as it wasn't considered correct for the whole 'psychedelic experience') or say using them recreationally at times rather than in a completely serious way. Just a bit over the top for me, I like to have my giggly trips too.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

or say using them recreationally at times rather than in a completely serious way. Just a bit over the top for me, I like to have my giggly trips too.

I still say taking psychedelics to magnify the immersion factor of a movie or video game is an absolutely amazing recreational use of their abilities.

First time I ever saw Rango, was near the peak of a mushroom trip when I went into my friends room as it was starting. The scene where he pretending to be a director in his fish tank. When it went up into the air and came crashing down in slow motion, the level of empathy at the fact the entire world he ever knew just got smashed to smithereens and his life will forever change because of it was absolutely amazing.

Watching the movie sober since, it's humorous how emotionally dull that scene is compared to that first experience. Whenever I see it though, I am reminded of the fact at how separated we are from the emotions experienced by other people... even when we try to imagine.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

For the sake of completeness, I am going to be that guy to come in here and say:

I do in fact believe that DMT is the holy grail capable of unlocking the universe. For what it's worth.

Much, props, good sir.

To play devil's advocate, if someone has had a mindblowing experience that totally turned their life around, can you really blame them for glowing about it and encouraging others to have the same experience? I draw the line at being pushy with it, or deeming yourself better than people who decline your offer. Continuing to talk about it in company that's clearly not interested is just tactless. But it seems pretty sour grapes to begrudge someone a strong personal interest in, or enthusiasm for, anything that's been of great benefit to them, just because you don't relate.

Does this all come down to men of science versus men of spirit? Anecdotally, yes, I find that psychedelic users who reject the supernatural wholesale tend to be much less given to gushing about the good psychedelics have done for them, and much more likely to get annoyed with those who do gush this way.

 

[bolt151]

I think there is a difference between psychedelics and other drugs - you don't find many heroin addicts or crack addicts saying what a positive effect the experience has been for them do you. That in itself suggests psychedelics are a cut above.

Well an addict is obviously someone who has got into an abusive cycle of drug use and is not going to get many positives out of the experience and neither would someone who uses phsycs abusively.
many poets and writers have used heroin and produced some of the greatest books I've ever read (william burroughs for one) . cocaine has a long history of use by academics for focus (Sigmund freud for one)

 

[psood0nym]

^Used in moderation and judiciously, or in special cases sometimes even when abused, pretty much every class of recreational substance can enhance one's experience and life practices. With 5HT psychedelics however, we find studies like the now famous John Hopkins psilocybin study where 3 out of 5 participants rank the experience as among the top 5 of their lives, and outside observers confirm user's claims of experiencing lasting positive benefits months later after a single trial. There's really nothing like that for any other drug class. It seems if other drug classes have exceptions, psychedelics have the rule.

Any individual user's claims of superiority will naturally have to be examined in context, and psychedelics can obviously cause harm as well, but on average 5HT psychedelics are clearly unique in the degree of benefits conferred relative to other classes and warrant proclamations of comparative "superiority" if anything does. I think many of us simply feel an aversion to the term "superiority," as we've mostly all grown up in a democratic ideological climate where elitism is viewed in a pejorative light, but it does seem to apply here.

 

[Jesusgreen]

I think it's important to look at the whole spectrum. Are people putting themselves as superior for using psychedelics? If so, I don't think they've really delved deep enough into 5-ht2a agonists to even get the message

If they're putting psychedelics up as superior to other drugs - why not? Everyone has their drug of choice. The important part is to accept other peoples views and not just blatantly demand that psychedelics are the truth, the way, the light, and that anyone disagreeing is, simply put, wrong

Let's look at the reasons why they might put psychedelics on a pedestal though.. Firstly, psychedelics come with far fewer side-effects and dangers than most other drugs (with a few exceptions of course). Secondly for many (or even the majority of) users they actually come with an overall positive impact on the user's life.

Along with this, I think a large part of putting psychedelics up on a pedestal above other classes of drugs is about how deep the experiences are emotionally - how often do you here someone talking about the day coke changed their life, without it being a horror story of how they almost killed themselves and decided to give up drugs?

I think it's partly just respect, when a chemical can delve so deep into your own mind, show you things about yourself that you didn't even realise yourself, and completely and utterly change your perspective on life and the universe - it's only nature to give a bit of a bow and show it extra respect.

On the flip side though that can be negative too, as humans we often attribute anything unnatural to some sort of super powers to be revered, and many people do this with psychedelics, but really, to each their own, if they're not harming themselves or others with these beliefs then good for them

Though, regarding looking at the full spectrum, it's worth noticing how many people are the same with other drugs. Look at how many people who smoke Cannabis are convinced that it is the most special drug, and often look down on others for consuming other drugs - the latter part can definitely be said of alcohol, cigarettes, and caffeine. I know many users of Cocaine and other stimulants who are convinced their drug of choice is the best and superior to all others.. etc.

 

[Ismene]

Just because something can't kill you doesnt mean it can't be harmful, mushrooms can definetly take a toll on your mind and are not safe in that sense. Also im pretty sure quite a few people in the last 2000 years have died because of doing stupid shit on mushrooms.

Mushrooms arn't physically harmful tho and I'm not sure what "taking a toll on your mind" means. Everything takes a toll on your mind doesn't it? Your girlfriend leaving you, getting up at 5am to go do a job you fucking hate etc. Taking a toll on your mind is part of being alive.

I don't think you can blame people doing stupid shit on mushrooms on mushrooms - that can only be blamed on the person concerned.

Well an addict is obviously someone who has got into an abusive cycle of drug use and is not going to get many positives out of the experience and neither would someone who uses phsycs abusively

True, although I think abusing psychedelics is a lot harder than abusing heroin or crack, simply because if you take psychedelics too often they stop working.

many poets and writers have used heroin and produced some of the greatest books I've ever read (william burroughs for one) . cocaine has a long history of use by academics for focus (Sigmund freud for one)

Yeah I've no doubt you can create while addicted, I'm just questioning whether or not being an addict is a positive experience in the long run. I've never heard of an LSD addict for example - it's a different experience.

But if you can keep your use of heroin or coke to recreational use I'm sure they can be as positive as a psychedelic experience for some people. Although I think a psychedelic experience still has the edge - you can use LSD in psychotherapy for example, or for appreicating nature whereas I'm not sure heroin would be that beneficial.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

On the flip side though that can be negative too, as humans we often attribute anything unnatural to some sort of super powers to be revered, and many people do this with psychedelics, but really, to each their own, if they're not harming themselves or others with these beliefs then good for them

Yes, because what a tragedy it would if someone took a drug and ended up transcending the pain of earthly existence by forging a deep, meaningful connection to some higher power 8)

Nothing personal, JG. It's just that... what I wouldn't give for a forum as unbiasedly informative and open about drugs and drug users, that was a bit more friendly to the spiritual seeker. Then again, I guess I wouldn't be a seeker if I'd already found what I was looking for

 

[Splitz]

Well, I don't see myself as superior, although I have changed in a positive way from using psychedelics and so I cherish them, whilst remaining always wary of them. If that makes me 'damaged', then so be it. But I felt pretty damaged when I was an extremely fearful, angry and depressed person. I feel much less so now that I've learnt to mostly laugh at things that used to get me down or enraged, and try my hardest to show respect and love to whoever I meet. I'm not in a position to judge whether I'm a better person, but I am certainly happier.

I try not to talk about drugs with any of my friends who don't use them/like the idea of them. But one particular friend, who moved away from my area a few years ago (thus does not see me on a regular basis), tells me sometimes that she doubts my psychedelic use is beneficial. When this happens, I don't feel superior... however I know a lot more about drugs than she does, and I know a lot more about my own state of well being than she does. What I'm trying to say is that perhaps the feeling of superiority that some advocates of psychedelics possess could stem from others ignorance, and by that I mean not the first hand experience of tripping, but the refusal to accept that they can positively influence one's life.

 

[Carlqua]

No rez-runner, it's about obtaining the normal amount of information but your brain functions are reduced so that you interpret it in a superficial way.
I certainly agree with the OP, talking to mushrooms spirits? feeling closer to god? it's just about assigning something to your personality so that you can become part of this magical little world, a bit like wiccans, the alternative lifestyle, yoga and vegans, it's all about attention seeking and getting appraisal from peers so I don't think the ego really dies in people like this I think they just get Egotistical fulfillment in saying that because it's like an initiation into a crowd they want to be part of. And they just love to talk about it online too because their ego is fulfilled and they feel superior.

Of course I'm stereotyping people here, well they love being part of a strerotype, but of course there are those who have their own individual reasons and don't go flaunting it like they have has some sort of spiritual contact to their little alternative life style friends.

 

[Dizmal]

This subject could be debated to the moon n back! Everyone craves positive experiences, joy is where you find it I allways say and any activity or substance or emotion can allow you learn new things that could leave you with some sort of superiority complex.

It's easier to forget about those horrific multiple day meth binges that can leave one in a hallucinogenic psychcosis than it is to forget about a highly positive and mind altering journey which one may discover a greater understanding of self, others and perhaps even the universe. Imo both substances can cause superiority depending on who and where.

Prolific things like trips can truely change an idividual but I the real afterglow slowly and seldomly fades, but the expansion inside of you is still present.

Wow mindfuck topic

 

[TheAppleCore]

No, you're not the only one, OP.

Psychedelics are cool, but I feel dissociatives are equally valuable. GABAergics and cannabinoids are cool too. Each chemical has its own value, and each chemical has its own dangers.

 

[psood0nym]

su·pe·ri·or
adjective
1.
higher in station, rank, degree, importance, etc.: a superior officer.
2.
above the average in excellence, merit, intelligence, etc.: superior math students.
3.
of higher grade or quality: superior merchandise.
4.
greater in quantity or amount: superior numbers.
5.
showing a consciousness or feeling of being better than or above others: superior airs.

The sense of "superiority" that this thread has discussed has traveled from a transparently doubtful conception in the original post most similar to definition 5 along a wandering path of other poster's interpretations and attributions. With each new post it has gained or lost meaning for every reader, snowballing and fracturing into an amorphous blob of semantics that appears hopelessly different from every person's perspective and each point in time. Each of us is screaming into an echo chamber and believing that our own reverberation is another person's voice in answer. In short, it's like most every conversation ever had, especially on Bluelight, but more abominably and obviously so.

So, what would it take for psychedelics, reverence for psychedelics, the personality or opinion of psychedelics users, or whatever we think this thread is about to qualify or disqualify as "superior" for our understanding? We may not be able to agree on anything absolutely but at least we can attempt to aim in a general direction and agree that general reasonableness and plausibility are sufficient signifiers of practical truths without over generalizing such that every perspective is valid (even though this is an abstract discussion, it can still be approached more pragmatically). Though we can argue incorrigibly that it is futile like freshmen philosophers, or take the easy route of toddler deconstructionists gleefully and maliciously asking "why, but why ...", we need to do more to do our damnedest to stick out a limb that we dare to be cut off rather than hide behind vagaries content with the security that comes with mumbling to ourselves.

 

[Carlqua]

psood0nym..... how poetic, yet how useless as a post, he is talking about the feeling of superiority a person feels when they think they have been enlightened by a trip, has been taught the mysteries of the universe without even touching a physics book or believing converting thier lifestyle around their trips because they believe it is a godly experience, that is the superiority we are talking about, how can that seem reasonable to anyone? except of course it would be reasonable to someone who would say the typical spiritual jargon to fit in and/or give them a new quirk to their personality.

and by the way you have illustrated point 2. of your definition of superioirty yourself. but the problem is you think the style you have wrote that post is intelligent when you just wrote a load of nonsense to bulk it up which I think is so immature and typical of an internet keyboard warrior, get a life and stop brown nosing yourself with your over indulged posts.

 

[Splitz]

^ I didn't quite have the heart to say anything like that, but I think you're right. :/