• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ
  • PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe |

Superiority

ParappaTheRapper said:
The way I see it, is that the concept of revering psychedelics or not is a sort of lense with which to view the idea of superiority, atleast in this context. Meaning that there an endless amount of combinations of thought processes on the issue.

This struck me -- one person's definition of "arrogrance" or "superiority" might not be another's. I've lived in cultures where simply mentioning an accomplishment of yours in passing is considered showing off. I've run in social circles where simply being visibly content most of the time is considered smug, and earns you widespread resentment. Misery likes company. Could it be that many people simply begrudge psychedelic users the fact that they've found something to live for, and aren't afraid to show it? Add to this the fact that the thing they're tickled about is something that arouses fear and suspicion in many. It could be that this perceived "superiority" has nothing to do with either the psychonaut's interpretation of his experience, or the way he regards other people post-trip. It could be simply that he dares to do something most don't dare to do, and isn't afraid to admit it, that chafes other people.

Similarly, I've seen the devoutly religious and the deeply committed social activist dismissed by more cynical people as "smug", even when they're not pushing their views on anyone. Sour grapes indeed.
 
Last edited:
One thing that noone has seemed to mention, is that psychedelic drugs amplify your normal consciousness and bring latent content to the forefront. It is my understanding that about one in four adults have a diagnosable mental illness. Seeing as delusions of grandeur, mania, hyper-religiosity, etc., are common symptoms of many diseases, then couldn't this explain the behavior of someone like Timothy Leary then for example? Creativity and bipolar tend to go hand in hand. And just from watching interviews with the man. Just saying...it's possible.

Still, for as much damage as he did to the image of drug-use, he certainly helped along evolution a little faster. (In my opinion).

I don't believe that Leary did damage to the image of Psychedelics.

People start off with the illusions that were taught to them by society. Psychedelics put these illusions to the test. As a result, people may end up looking pretty foolish. To me, this doesn't make Psychedelics look bad -- it rather exposes the illusions of the society and makes the society look bad.

Gaining real knowledge comes with a price.

Leary may not have been able to see through all of his illusions, but he did stumble forward beyond the society he came from.

The fact that he stumbled forward may, in some people's minds, mean that he made Psychedelics look bad.

To me, going forward at all, even though stumbling, makes Psychedelics look good.
 
After this I will not add anything else to this discussion. But one thing that always strikes me in discussions of this kind is the fact that common society values a lot the people who are discreet and modest. This is the ideal that is in anyones's mind when judging others. so if someone appears a little more flamboyant is viciously cast down. But the historical figures of Buddha, Jesus and even Mohamed are not that modest. At all. In none of these figures you will see that they say they are unworthy. Suppose, just imagine in a large stretch of the imagination, that someone like them appeared in this XXI century. S/He would probably not be very modest and perhaps would be a little flamboyant. Would S/He be disregarded just because s/he is arrogant? (Jesus was particularly arrogant, by the way)

I am not equating the "psychedelic illuminate" to another Jesus. What I'm saying is that the arrogance and feeling of superiority of the "psychedelic illuminate" are not an evil in itself. Contempt to to the attitudes of the "illuminate" is in fact masking a hidden form of superiority, actually the worst possible form of superiority: the superiority of the status quo in which the prevalent attitude is, as the "psychedelic illuminates" not conform to the common rules they must be wrong and they must be deluded. For such status quo people, please continue your ant-little-lives. Whenever you feel a little confused, drink yourselves into a stupor or have a fat little line to conform a little bit better or at least feel better about yourselves, and superior to all the other deluded psychedelic users. But please do not take psychedelics or you might turn into one! Shudder!
 
I don't believe that Leary did damage to the image of Psychedelics.

<snip>

The fact that he stumbled forward may, in some people's minds, mean that he made Psychedelics look bad.

He made Psychedelics look bad by promoting them while acting like a nut.

That's been my understanding at least.
 
Yes sir I have noticed the psychedelic superiority complex in myself as well others. Do I realize that it's irrational? yes. Does that fact bother me? Nope.

To me, it's the beauty of them. Stepping through to the other side and feeling truly alive for the fist time.

I think the people who venerate psychs are usually the ones who have had a positive, life changing experiences as a result.

At least for me that was the case. I was a mental wreck, dealing with PTSD and heavy substance abuse; feeling like my life was over at 21. Then I tried 2c-e and one dose changed my life. Pain turned to bliss, depression to elation, and I was surrounded by indescribable beauty.

I'm not religious but the only way I can describe it was like being touched by the hand of god. Meshing with the universe. That was a few years ago, but since then I'm the happiest I've ever been.

It's experiences like this which cause people to hold psychedelics in such high regard.

They provide a window to the infinite. Other classes of substances just don't measure up.
 
Ok, back to the start. I shouldn't have brought up Leary at all, he's a red herring as far as this discussion is concerned. The reason I mentioned him was that his public persona was the first clue that my naive notion about what psychedelics are capable of and the type of longterm changes they trigger was totally off base. That's all. His role as self appointed lsd prophet or how he made the counterculture look, wasn't what I intended to be front and center of what I wanted to contribute, sorry about that.
I reread the whole thread from the beginning, which I regrettably didn't do before barging in here. A lot of stuff to think about, humbling really. Edit: Irrelevant rambling deleted ;)
 
Last edited:
This struck me -- one person's definition of "arrogrance" or "superiority" might not be another's. I've lived in cultures where simply mentioning an accomplishment of yours in passing is considered showing off. I've run in social circles where simply being visibly content most of the time is considered smug, and earns you widespread resentment. Misery likes company. Could it be that many people simply begrudge psychedelic users the fact that they've found something to live for, and aren't afraid to show it? Add to this the fact that the thing they're tickled about is something that arouses fear and suspicion in many. It could be that this perceived "superiority" has nothing to do with either the psychonaut's interpretation of his experience, or the way he regards other people post-trip. It could be simply that he dares to do something most don't dare to do, and isn't afraid to admit it, that chafes other people.

Similarly, I've seen the devoutly religious and the deeply committed social activist dismissed by more cynical people as "smug", even when they're not pushing their views on anyone. Sour grapes indeed.
Yep.
 
Why would the psychedelic use be occasional while the crack or heroin was used regularly?
That's apples and oranges man. But I can still clarify for you.

Heroin carries physical risk more than mental (notwithstanding addiction), and while crack can make you pretty weird while high, those oddities go away when you're sober. Psychedelics on the other hand, while generally much safer physically, can pretty easily radically alter personalities, and with heavy use, can lead to psychosis.

It is estimated that 23% of heroin users will at some point become dependent on it (source / NIDA), while I doubt 23% of psychedelics users will get into such deep trouble. Of course we have to take into account the reasons to begin with either type of drug to begin with - recreational use of heroin can turn ugly while abusing it to numb yourself from the get go is of course asking for trouble.
Similarly we have to ask if people with wild ideas who want to explore their mental horizons on psychedelics have a relatively high chance of latent disorders to begin with. They probably do. Still it feels like hedonistic and escapist drugs are by definition more likely to wreck you than drugs that help with self-realization and self-actualization.
I'm having a bit of a hard time finding hard statistics on the percentage of suicides, psychiatrics hospitalizations and things like that from psychedelics but I think I read that the numbers are relatively low and not nearly as alarming as that 23%. If that were true, I would handle this entire thing differently in terms of recommendations. Oh here is some info:

Because of inadequate reporting and problems in interpreting symptoms and causes, it is hard to tell how common adverse reactions are. At Bellevue Hospital in New York from early 1965 to 1967, 200 patients appeared with complaints related to LSD—mostly panic reactions and flashbacks (Frosch, 1969). By 1969 Bellevue was seeing only one LSD reaction every 2 weeks, and most of these were thought to be borderline schizophrenics in whom the drug had precipitated a psychosis (Stern & Robbins, 1969). A 1971 Canadian government survey of the hospital records of 22,885 psychiatric patients found 67 cases (0.3 percent) where LSD was mentioned as a factor in the primary diagnosis; most of these patients had used many drugs, and the precise influence of LSD was often unclear (Final Report, 1973, p. 378 ).

(source)

In reality, I think I know of maybe one person who lost it due to psychedelics but the majority of heroin users and a worrisome number of coke/speed users I know are problematic or at least at times.

Admittedly, something like ketamine is something I previously glorified but I have discovered the risks and dark side of it. Yet after years of use by myself and people I know - psychedelics remain a positive, if sometimes unpredictable, force in my life and in my mind.

I know amphetamines, sedatives, opiates and other drugs all have their place in pharmacy but I don't think it is wise for healthy people to get involved with them, and if I do myself I acknoweledge that it is not good for my life.
Yet psychedelics have been investigated as therapeutic tools, for troubled people guided by a professional yes, but also for healthy people who can use therapy even if they are not sick or diagnosed to begin with. They too can benefit from psychedelics in ways I think are unique.

Yes in the end we try to compare apples and oranges but if the apples are of "different size or weight" we can still tell something by it.

Maybe the people I know do not represent an honest slice of the population: to take psychedelics you need to know yourself at least a bit, or you might be unable to make a proper decision about taking them and how to begin with. I can see this as a risk in places where people might be less educated and self-developed. There psychedelics could do a lot of damage. Especially exotic and new super potent psychedelics might be a disaster waiting to happen.

However the concluding point is probably that if some standards of self-reflection and mental stability are met psychedelics seem to rarely be damaging and instead often have great positive potential for things like life-affirmation.
Yet with euphoriant hard-drugs it seems to me that their way of rewarding is sneaky and beyond the immediate high I feel wrong about doing them.
Moderate use of stims or opiates can help in general everyday functioning but IMO they only cover up some apparent defecit like pain or unwanted thoughts or feelings that ask for quenching or a lack of energy that begs for boosting. Yes I depress and boost myself but I don't feel particularly *right* about it, while psychedelics can help me feel deeply myself and reminding me the importance of being alive and things like that... though if I am unable to trip for months, or a year, I can totally manage. Seems more healthy and beneficial to me.
 
Last edited:
I don't know, but that is why I said ”notwithstanding addiction” .. Also, I don't think that everyone who uses drugs other than psychedelics is trying to escape or hide.. I know many people who do it because it's fun. Oh, and lots of people don't ever use psychedelics for anything other than getting fucked up. All drugs are drugs. In fact, I don't think I've ever taken a serious trip where I haven't realized that I should quit putting shit in my body. I'm pretty sure that, on the most fundamental level, the psychedelic stance in life is pro-sobriety.
I mean, I know more junkies and tweakers than crazies from psy's, but frankly, the addicts are functional and still living in the consensus, while the kids who lost it are just.. not okay.

I like what you said about apples and oranges. I think that sums it up lol.
 
I love discussions like these. I could add my two cents but there is no need, it's all been covered and then some.

Which is why these discussions are great, they force me to listen and learn rather than speak.
I have learned a lot from discussions like these on bluelight.

My thoughts exactly.
 
Last edited:
I don't know, but that is why I said ”notwithstanding addiction” ..

Fair enough

Also, I don't think that everyone who uses drugs other than psychedelics is trying to escape or hide.. I know many people who do it because it's fun. Oh, and lots of people don't ever use psychedelics for anything other than getting fucked up. All drugs are drugs. In fact, I don't think I've ever taken a serious trip where I haven't realized that I should quit putting shit in my body. I'm pretty sure that, on the most fundamental level, the psychedelic stance in life is pro-sobriety.
I mean, I know more junkies and tweakers than crazies from psy's, but frankly, the addicts are functional and still living in the consensus, while the kids who lost it are just.. not okay.

I don't believe it is black and white like that. Addicts can live on a pretty sketchy edge of consensus reality especially if you are talking about functioning as a person rather than getting a grip on what you think is real and what is not.
On the other hand, there is definitely a big level where people can be deeply confused about who they are and what reality means and still not even once considering admitting themselves to a ward. The people who have snapped so much that they are an immediate threat to themselves and others like full blown schizo delusions and things like that, you don't just generate that by a trip. It is something that is usually lying dormant and latent waiting for a moment of sheer fucked up-ness to bubble up and cause an episode. I went near the edge at times but I could always reel myself in, apparently I seem to be fortunate to be wired that way.
I can see how other people may not be as resistant. For a while I was susceptible to conspiracy-like thinking believing that I was possibly on the path to solving the mysteries of the universe. While some ideas may have been bright, most were just lunacy and free association without skeptic testing. I'm glad I realized my folly.

Sure there is a margin of people that have things like general anxiety disorder and things like that from a single trip, that could in no way have been predicted by themselves and close friends or relatives but that's not many people. Something like that is just freakishly high sensitivity gone awry (I guess).


I like what you said about apples and oranges. I think that sums it up lol.

Haha :) Well yeah as long as we try to compromise things that cannot be compared without first attaching a certain (negative) value to addiction, insanity and other things... this discussion can continue endlessly.
It's fucked up to give people a hypothetical choice: whether they want to take a drug and risk addiction or another drug bearing risk of insanity, that's impossible and the reality is even incomparably more complex. For example amphetamine use and also opiate use can make you hallucinate / psychotic, and also you could get addicted to something like AMT.

We should just talk about things one thing at a time, one broad ruling about what is better is bullshit.

But I realize that this thread is also about the vibes some scenes may give off. Some psy scenes may be condescending and others may be very New Age-y and out there. Other scenes like with a lot of speed use may be edgy, nervous and pushy. I can go on and on, some of these themes vary a lot while others may be more universal and there are probably rational expanations and mechanisms why all of this happens.

I could try and defend the psy scene as a whole and take a dump on other scenes, generalizing all over the place but I'd rather just shut up. And maybe wish I'd have shut up earlier because it's all pointless and I don't like ego games.
 
No, you're right, it's definitely not black and white. Just, in my experience, the addicts have jobs and friends and lives alongside their habit, and the crazies just cut sit around doing drugs and acting weird, even driving away many really close friends. Hell, that sort of thing has happened to me before, but even though I've smoked crack, meth,, and heroin, I've never been an addict. YMMV.

Haha haha, drugs are funny. ”Would you like addiction or insanity with that euphoria?”
Lol, almost as bad as the pharmaceuticals.. ”Treats your worst allergies! Side effects include incontinence, insomnia, heart failure, and suicidal thoughts/tendencies.”
 
So right, those are the worst condiments I ever heard. 8(

I know about the isolation but I don´t think it´s either a looney thing or an addict thing but rather a tendency some people have that gets triggered badly by downward spirals of addiction episodes. But for some people this can also be a choice, while the average person may think it healthy and normal to participate in social interaction. People who have schizoid tendencies (note: this has nothing to do with schizophrenia, its probably just the same etymological root work for 'break') just don't really feel the need to surround themselves with others and feel fine. It turns into a problem when others start saying it isn't normal.

Of course this is not an excuse for all people who use more and more drugs and isolate themselves but it is just more probable for someone with schizoid tendencies.
 
The primary thing that gives me caution with psychedelics compared to other drugs is there are two possible "really bad first experiences".

With other drugs, that really bad first experience is the form of an overdose, usually being a medical emergency requiring stabilization or ending in death. While that does have long term psychological ramifications, the most severe effects are far easier to notice and treat.

With psychedelics, the really bad first experience can lead to a situation of persistent grandiose delusions of great spiritual significance/power or "insight into the universe". Both times I've seen this happen, no one realized how bad it was until a few days to a week had gone by and we were trying to figure out how to help them without ruining their life anymore than they already have.

First time, they ended up alienating or scaring the crap out of the majority of their family and friends, and got the cops called on them several times before ending up in jail for a few weeks before being sent to a psych ward. That person mentally recovered after a few days in the psych ward, but it's had long lasting effects on their friends and family, and their life as they knew it still hasn't recovered.

The second time the person primarily alienated their friends constantly going on about how they unlocked the key to transcendence, and went on for a week making plans to fulfill their destiny. They were about to move out to the forest far from where they lived in order to pursue their ideas before his father, who already took away his car out of fear for his safety, sent him to a psych ward. He also recovered mentally, but he was in his 3rd year of college and missed too much time to make up so was set back in that regard, lost most of his friends, and ended up moving away to get away from the reputation of what he went through.

Personally, I'd rather risk an OD than have my life ruined in those ways...

That's the main reason I approached my usage with such caution and gradual increases, and focused many of my early trips on treating the psychedelic experience as a "game against reality". Created all the rules/strategies to "win" so to speak during those first few months. The prize for winning being keeping my sanity and gaining the benefits of their use at the same time.
 
OK fuck. Sorry to hear about that. I guess that is what happens if the question if you'd rather have insanity or addiction or overdoses seriously. It is of course serious, but so hard that it becomes absurd.

For someone who feels stable psychologically maybe psychedelics are the safer choice. Maybe for someone who is resistant to addictive behavior in general is better off with other drugs, hard to say isn't it?
What makes it even more difficult is that people who may be unstable psychologically might be unable to tell that they are for that exact same reason. *mind boggles slightly*
 
What makes it even more difficult is that people who may be unstable psychologically might be unable to tell that they are for that exact same reason. *mind boggles slightly*

The first person, nobody was truly surprised. They were always a little "out there".

The second person though, really confused some people. Really intelligent guy majoring in music theory. Had a huge passion for mathematics behind music, how certain frequencies and progressions trigger certain emotions or cultural recognition. Guy was brilliant. Then he "saw the light" and nothing he cared about prior mattered anymore.

When that happened to him, it hit me pretty hard. Seeing people you know weren't mentally stable have issues is one thing. Seeing someone you thought was emotionally and mentally stable have such a break, who was a close friend... confused me and had me searching for reasons to explain how it could have gone so badly.
 
The first person, nobody was truly surprised. They were always a little "out there".

The second person though, really confused some people. Really intelligent guy majoring in music theory. Had a huge passion for mathematics behind music, how certain frequencies and progressions trigger certain emotions or cultural recognition. Guy was brilliant. Then he "saw the light" and nothing he cared about prior mattered anymore.

When that happened to him, it hit me pretty hard. Seeing people you know weren't mentally stable have issues is one thing. Seeing someone you thought was emotionally and mentally stable have such a break, who was a close friend... confused me and had me searching for reasons to explain how it could have gone so badly.

Genius can come close to insanity.

Be sure to watch the documentary "dangerous knowledge" for historical examples of smart people breaking up by their research alone. Thinking can drive you insane especially if you are very good at thinking. Thinking on psychedelics probably catalyzes these processes quite a bit. Again: oversimplified... but yea ok.
 
Genius can come close to insanity.

Be sure to watch the documentary "dangerous knowledge" for historical examples of smart people breaking up by their research alone.

Oh thank you! I've heard of the concept, never knew about that documentary. Definitely sounds like something I'd be interested in watching.

Everything I've read so far about the link between the two has been non-linear thinking = source of genius, but it also has a tendency to be illogical. Taking to extremes, can allow for amazing insights, but also incredibly strong delusions. That's my simplistic understanding of the connection.
 
Heh heh. Oh Carlqua, I didn't realize how young you were. I simply had misgivings about the relevance of my post -- the one you voiced so much consternation towards -- immediately after I made it, and that doubt was reflected in my response to you. Having read more of you, now I see different. Given your fascination with neuroscience, you might be interested to know that my major was physical psychology, and that I have worked in a neuroscience lab and even have my name published as a co-author (granted, neuroscience was not my ultimate path), yet despite all that hard-edged knowledge somehow all my artful whimsies, superior airs, and twee redundancies continue on to eat at your perception like the vomit of consciousness (huh?). You don't like philosophy? Well, what about philosophy of science -- I myself am a fan of Lakatos, how about you? Oh fuck, let's just be out with it: I am superior to you, and that's why you're so pissy. If you don't like that you can eat my diamond encrusted asshole -- how's that for maturity monkey boy? The next time you find yourself irritated by my style instead of reading on just drop trou and stick your cock in your eye, bwahahaha!


Brilliant, I was all fired up on page 2 and 3 of this thread and was going to leap to your defense because I thought you were being unnecessarily polite and restrained, but you beat me to it, fucking awesome comeback, respect to you bro !
 
Top