Heroin Withdrawal After Methadone, Suboxone and Switching From IV to Snorting - Plan

[cjb017]

Hi,

I have a few questions and was hoping to get some advice, suggestions and/or feedback from others because my situation is kind of strange. I have a plan set to get off of heroin and get through the withdrawal as painlessly as possible.

Basically I was on a 25 ml daily dose of methadone for about a year. Along with my methadone I was also injecting approximately .125g of heroin daily as well. I did not want to increase my methadone dose because I have heard how difficult it is to get off of methadone and how bad the withdrawal is. The 25 ml dose of methadone was enough to stop any withdrawal in between use of heroin daily and curb any extreme cravings. Eventually I just wanted to be clean and not live like that anymore, plus it was extremely dangerous to be shooting up while on methadone, so my doctor recommended I switch to suboxone so that's what I tried...

My doctor put me into detox for 52 hours from methadone, which he said was fine to only wait 52 hours since I was at a low dose of methadone (articles say you should wait a minimum of 72 hours if you're above 30 ml's, and that it's okay to wait only 48 hours if you're at 30 mls or less) and so I was detoxed for 52 hours from methadone and 40 hours from heroin. by the time for my first suboxone pill i was withdrawaling a litte bit but i didn't feel that bad (barely any pain, no restless legs, no diarehha, no sweats, no fever) so I took the 12mg of suboxone and then I felt like my skin was crawling, i got goosebumps, felt really restless and strange and i didn't like the feeling - it was so bizzare. My doctor said he thinks i was going into precipiated withdrawal even though I waited long enough. Anyway I waited only til 1am the next day for my next dose at the pharmacy which was around 60 hours at this point from my last methadone use/heroin use and took another 12mg suboxone and it didn't make me feel any better. Anyway I went through the whole day feeling like crap and then that night (it now being around 82 hours from my last methadone use and heroin use) I couldnt handle the crappy feeling and couldn't wait til after midnight to go get my next dose of suboxone so I went and did a shot of heroin and it basically felt better than it had ever felt before since I was off methadone and the suboxone didn't make me go into withdrawal or anything. So the next day I woke up feeling great, so I decided not to take my suboxone anymore and this lasted an entire week, I didn't use heroin again and I didn't use suboxone or methadone again and I didn't withdrawal at all and I felt amazing. For some reason I never went into withdrawal after quitting heroin and methadone except that little bit during the first 52 hours and then for the next 30 hours feeling weird/crappy while on suboxone, so after those 3 days (82 hours) off methadone I was clean for another week on top of those 3 days and felt amazing that entire week and was clean from everything. So eventually my addiction got the best of me and my friend who I use to use with asked me to use with them and I fell into the habit of shooting up everyday again for a week straight and my methadone in the past was always enough to mentally stop me when I wanted to stop using heroin and keep me from withdrawal, but now being off methadone I felt the complete withdrawal from heroin and cravings, and also heroin was making me fall asleep so easily now. So this was about 10 days ago I started shooting up for a week, and now I feel trapped again, I felt so amazing that week I was clean and not on methadone or suboxone and had a drive to do stuff. The last 3 days or 72 hours I haven't shot up though.

When shooting up for one week straight I was doing around .125g to .25g of heroin a day. Again this was around 10 days ago for one week, the last 3 days I have not shot up. So I have successfully been able to quit shooting up for 3 days (72 hours) now and switch to snorting during the last 3 days instead, because I think it's easier to quit from snorting, mentally the cravings are less and it's less painful to quit. But I am snorting about 2 times the amount but I still think it will be easier to quit, regardless because shooting up the withdrawal is so bad. Anyway I haven't felt any withdrawal really during the last 10 days, since i've been using heroin enough to curb the withdrawal, my withdrawal doesn't really start til about 24 hours after my last use til I really notice it, do you think if I continue on this road of snorting and I taper from .25g a day to about a point a day or half a point a day that my withdrawal will be a lot more manageable than when I was shooting? I am thinking about snorting for another few days and tapering it down everyday then cold turkey quitting from that small amount.

Everyone keeps telling me, if I want to quit heroin that it's easier to quit heroin "cold turkey" right now, right away and if I'm going to plan to quit that this "taper" method rarely works and switching from shooting to snorting also doesn't work because everyone always gives in and starts shooting again or doesn't actually taper, but I am able to stay on the plan and do this taper and not shoot up again if I plan it. I just feel so tired of the opiate withdrawal feeling and don't know if I am mentally strong enough to go through a bad withdrawal again, I absolutely hate the feeling and can't handle feeling it again. I also have a couple 8mg suboxone pills that someone gave me to help me when I start withdrawaling, so I was thinking about taking some suboxone after 48 hours from my last use of heroin and since its been so long since ive used methadone I don't think i'll get the weird effects I got last time I was on suboxone, this time. although last time I was off heroin/methadone for 82 hours when I was on suboxone and the suboxone made me feel so crappy, so maybe my body doesn't handle suboxone very well. so my question is what do you think of my plan? also if I was able to quit methadone/shooting up basically cold turkey without much pain since I didn't stay on suboxone, then I think just quitting snorting heroin will be do-able and easier than what I was already capable of doing.

also some more information to add is that I got diagnosed with ADD a few months ago and got put on ADD medicine and I feel amazing and better than i've ever felt in my life now, after quitting methadone/heroin for a week I felt great still and it was my first time i quit opiates while on my ADD medicine and I barely felt any withdrawal. I am wondering if it makes a difference when you withdrawal with an untreated ADD and when you withdrawal with a treated ADD, it feels like the withdrawal is so much easier now that I am treated. (I am on 60mg vyvanse)

also I should add when I am snorting the heroin right now I do not feel anything at all from it, I do not get high and I am only using it to put more and more time in between my last shot of heroin and now for when I quit all together. when I am using the .25g or more a day I am basically doing that throughout the day to curb any withdrawal and like I said put more time between my last shot and now. also I have been going into the sauna everyday for the last 3 days as well so I can restart my brain and get it use to snorting heroin rather than have it injected.

Any feedback is great. Thank you

 

[cjb017]

Any feedback or suggestions would be really appreciated

 

[effie]

Hi cjb, welcome to BDD

Congratulations on wanting to kick heroin. That's really fantastic - far more chance of being successful if you really want to do it

Why is it you don't want to go onto a maintenance programme this time? Last time you got off the heroin but you relapsed. What will stop you relapsing this time? Not saying you absolutely have to, some people can do without, but as you have relapsed once I'd say there is a higher chance of relapsing again, and as the acute withdrawals are such a big hurdle for you it would be a shame to go through it needlessly.. this is a long term battle (one that you absolutely can win though) and it's important to recognise that you may need some help keeping away after you've kicked it.

It does sound like you had precipitated WDs last time, to some degree anyway. You need to wait til you are definitely dopesick before you take Suboxone - that is more important than the exact number of hours because everyone is different. When you shot up after taking Suboxone you didn't go into precipitated WDs because it doesn't work that way - you get them if you take Suboxone after another opioid, as buprenorphine has a higher receptor affinity and essentially rips the other opioid off your receptos. As bupe is only a partial agonist it sends you into precipitated WDs.

Tapering heroin often fail, for the reasons you mentioned. It's good to move from IV to snorting though, definitely. Do you really think you can manage to taper down with heroin? Not meaning to be rude at all it's just not many people could do that with their DOC. The withdrawal isn't necessarily easier if you snort than with IV, it all depends on the amount of heroin in your system although often quitting the needle is one of the trickiest things and IV users tend to have a bigger habit.

At the end of your taper I don't see any reason to take a once (or twice) off dose of Suboxone after you've been clean for 48 hours. It will just extend things.. Suboxone is a good maintenance med, and good for tapers (long and short) but you get withdrawals from buprenorphine too (some find it worse than heroin) and if you're 48 hours off heroin then a single dose is just going to extend things and is pretty much pointless IMO.. I would consider switching to a maintenance programme and tapering that way.

I am going to move this to Other Drugs, as they deal with withdrawals/methadone/Suboxone/tapers etc, hope that is okay

BDD > OD

ps try not to bump your own threads, someone will get to it when they can

 

[cjb017]

Thanks for the reply!

I feel like getting sober will work this time because of a few reasons, the boyfriend I would use with went to rehab and moved away, I basically am out of money, now that I am on my ADD medicine being sober feels just as good if not better than being high and I am moving in a few months to a different country with my parents so I will have no money and no dealer and I will be living with my family. Plus I just have the biggest drive to be clean.

But I definetely got off the needle, it's been 3 days and I have no urge to go shoot up. I just have to do the taper now, which I think will be possible, I only have enough money for another .5 so I think I will do .175g on day 1, .125 on day 2, .1 on day 3, .05 on day 4, .025 on day 5 and .025 on day 6/7.

If tapering doesn't work then I still don't have enough money for more so I will just go into withdrawal and use the suboxone I suppose!

 

[cjb017]

Hi cjb, welcome to BDD

Congratulations on wanting to kick heroin. That's really fantastic - far more chance of being successful if you really want to do it

Why is it you don't want to go onto a maintenance programme this time? Last time you got off the heroin but you relapsed. What will stop you relapsing this time? Not saying you absolutely have to, some people can do without, but as you have relapsed once I'd say there is a higher chance of relapsing again, and as the acute withdrawals are such a big hurdle for you it would be a shame to go through it needlessly.. this is a long term battle (one that you absolutely can win though) and it's important to recognise that you may need some help keeping away after you've kicked it.

It does sound like you had precipitated WDs last time, to some degree anyway. You need to wait til you are definitely dopesick before you take Suboxone - that is more important than the exact number of hours because everyone is different. When you shot up after taking Suboxone you didn't go into precipitated WDs because it doesn't work that way - you get them if you take Suboxone after another opioid, as buprenorphine has a higher receptor affinity and essentially rips the other opioid off your receptos. As bupe is only a partial agonist it sends you into precipitated WDs.

Tapering heroin often fail, for the reasons you mentioned. It's good to move from IV to snorting though, definitely. Do you really think you can manage to taper down with heroin? Not meaning to be rude at all it's just not many people could do that with their DOC. The withdrawal isn't necessarily easier if you snort than with IV, it all depends on the amount of heroin in your system although often quitting the needle is one of the trickiest things and IV users tend to have a bigger habit.

At the end of your taper I don't see any reason to take a once (or twice) off dose of Suboxone after you've been clean for 48 hours. It will just extend things.. Suboxone is a good maintenance med, and good for tapers (long and short) but you get withdrawals from buprenorphine too (some find it worse than heroin) and if you're 48 hours off heroin then a single dose is just going to extend things and is pretty much pointless IMO.. I would consider switching to a maintenance programme and tapering that way.

I am going to move this to Other Drugs, as they deal with withdrawals/methadone/Suboxone/tapers etc, hope that is okay

BDD > OD

ps try not to bump your own threads, someone will get to it when they can

Hey effie or does anyone know, how long many days after quitting shooting up and switching to snorting that it doesn't make a difference if i wait longer?

Like right now it's been 3 days, but I assume probably after a week that the more time I put in between my last shot and now it won't be improving anymore, since it can only improve so much.

I assume my brain will have forgotten about the shooting up after a week after my last shot and be reset to just snorting.

ugh i wanna quit so badly i hate my life like this

 

[LeLouche]

I'll be honest with you bro, sorry if it's harsh:

You need to just jump off. Seriously think about how much time has gone by that you've missed, and have been fucking around with opiates when you could've just stopped and dealt with the withdrawals.

Now you have a new plan that is supposed to work? And it involves using more opiates! What makes you think that is going to work? You need to stop using opiates.

 

[LeLouche]

Hey effie or does anyone know, how long many days after quitting shooting up and switching to snorting that it doesn't make a difference if i wait longer?

Like right now it's been 3 days, but I assume probably after a week that the more time I put in between my last shot and now it won't be improving anymore, since it can only improve so much.

I assume my brain will have forgotten about the shooting up after a week after my last shot and be reset to just snorting.

ugh i wanna quit so badly i hate my life like this

I'm sorry but I don't think it's going to make any significant difference if you take the shot now or in a day or whatever. If you seriously want to quit so badly then just fucking do it!

Either a) get rid of the shot or b) do the shot, then stop doing dope.

If you can't just stop what makes you think messing around with more opiates is going to help. You wasted a year on methadone. Think if you just stopped cold turkey. You're at a tiny bit of heroin right now. If you can deal with it now, and realize that there is a problem, a major one that you keep trying to fix the problem by using different, or less opiates.

 

[cjb017]

I'm sorry but I don't think it's going to make any significant difference if you take the shot now or in a day or whatever. If you seriously want to quit so badly then just fucking do it!

Either a) get rid of the shot or b) do the shot, then stop doing dope.

If you can't just stop what makes you think messing around with more opiates is going to help. You wasted a year on methadone. Think if you just stopped cold turkey. You're at a tiny bit of heroin right now. If you can deal with it now, and realize that there is a problem, a major one that you keep trying to fix the problem by using different, or less opiates.

I don't think you read everything correctly. I am not going to do a shot again.

I simply stopped injecting and switched to snorting and I was asking how long after my last shot and switching to snorting does it not make a difference to keep on just snorting and not taper. Now that it doesn't make a difference to put more time between my last shot 3 days ago and now, then i will start my taper now.

And also what you said is almost exactly what I said in my first post, my friends say that a plan like this is dumb basically and you should just quit "cold turkey", just like what I said in my first post and you basically said exactly what I said that people say.

Anyway I think my plan is better than quitting cold turkey from shooting up. I've managed not to shoot up for days and i'm going to quit from doing half a point a day rather than a que.

Also to answer your question of why it will work this time and not the last times ive quit i answered that in my third post. i'm moving soon to another country to a sober living facility, my partner i use to use drugs with went to rehab and moved away, i have no way of getting dope anymore, my ADD is treated and I have the biggest drive to get sober. I don't think I can have more reasons and things that could be helpful as I do.

 

[LeLouche]

^^^
Were you shooting say .3 in a shot, and are now sniffing .3 in a line? Or did you adjust how much you were sniffing to make it basically the same as shooting (so you would be sniffing more now? )

 

[cjb017]

I switched from shooting to sniffing.

When shooting I would do .125g once a day.

Now I do .25g but throughout the day so just little bumps or lines. But now that I am use to just sniffing I'm going to taper it down to just half a point a day - then cold turkey quit from that amount - I know I can stick to that plan just fine.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

That's really not very much dope at all.. It shouldn't be a very big deal to get off that amount of insufflated heroin a day. That's nothing. How long have you been snorting that much everyday? Either way, I can't imagine the withdrawals being very intense when your body is only used to such a small amount.

 

[cjb017]

I was on methadone for a year and was shooting up about .125g a day everyday for 6 months, and I have only switched to snorting about .25g a day for the last 3 days but I got off the needle.

But now that I think about it, my body was use to methadone plus shooting up, and compared to now just snorting a couple points a day and quitting from that I ddon't think my withdrawal will be that bad either.

Also I have clonidine and suboxone to help.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

You have suboxone? How much? Because, if you only need basically 2 bags snorted of H to not get sick, you can get off of that really fast. You could probably shake that in a few days spreading out 4mg of bupe.

 

[cjb017]

I have 8 mg of suboxone right now but I could get more if necessary.

I am thinking thought that I would take 2mg of the suboxone after 48 hours into withdrawal and that 8 mg will be more than enough.

The only thing that I hate about the withdrawal that I can't really control is my sleep getting affected, but I have seroquil to help with sleep. Also I get anxiety that feels terrible while withdrawaling from heroin but I also have access to 2mg clonazepam to help with that.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

8mg of suboxone should be more than plenty to get off of 2 bags a day.. You could spread that out for 5 days and you'll probably feel little to no withdrawal symptoms. Take 2mg at first, once you start to feel the onset of the sickness, the next day take 1.5mg, next day take 1mg, then day 3 take .5mg, day 4 .025mg, day 5, .0125 and then jump off. Maybe do a 6th day and take .0125 then too. Take the clonazepam in the meantime if it is needed, as well as loperamide and naproxen if there even is any discomfort after dosing on the bupe. If you do that, you'll have a pretty painless kick.

 

[cjb017]

The problem I have faced is that one time I took suboxone too early after quitting just heroin and it was only about 24 hours after my last heroin use and it put me into precipitated withdrawal and I just ended up using heroin again to take my out of that withdrawal.

Although the situation was uncommon because I did a shot of heroin and missed my vein and then 24 hours later took the suboxone so I assume that the heroin was slowly entering into my body since it was a missed shot under my skin and thats why i went into precipitated withdrawal 24 hours after shooting.

 

[mareseatoats]

CJB-I really hope that you can reach your goal soon, and be free from this addiction, and make it through with even the slightest bit of ease....But I did want to mention one thing regarding people who snort heroin and people that shoot heroin. No matter what the route of administration; the withdrawal is equally painful and horrible for both- especially if not done with some type of maintenance or other drugs to buffer the landing. Maybe the action of setting up a needle all the time can be one more thing the mind finds hard to stray from, but when it comes down to it, heroin withdrawal despite the ROA, is a circumference of hell in itself. Any longtime user who tries to quit could attest to that.

The consequences of "just snorting" heroin, when it comes time to separate yourself from it, deserves more respect than it is sometimes given...

 

[cjb017]

CJB-I really hope that you can reach your goal soon, and be free from this addiction, and make it through with even the slightest bit of ease....But I did want to mention one thing regarding people who snort heroin and people that shoot heroin. No matter what the route of administration; the withdrawal is equally painful and horrible for both- especially if not done with some type of maintenance or other drugs to buffer the landing. Maybe the action of setting up a needle all the time can be one more thing the mind finds hard to stray from, but when it comes down to it, heroin withdrawal despite the ROA, is a circumference of hell in itself. Any longtime user who tries to quit could attest to that.

The consequences of "just snorting" heroin, when it comes time to separate yourself from it, deserves more respect than it is sometimes given...

Well I quit methadone and heroin and managed to get through that, so I am assuming to just quit heroin now will be less painful and easier.

Plus I do have a plan with other drugs to help quit (suboxone, clonidine and clonazepam)

 

[mareseatoats]

CB-thank God you have those things to help you through this

And also my last post with all the equality of ROA's when it comes down to withdrawal, wasn't specifically directed at you-it was just something I was sharing with the whole BL community. Didn't intend for it to sound harsh!