• MDMA &
    Empathogenic
    Drugs

    Welcome Guest!
  • MDMA Moderators: Esperighanto

capped mdma

"as far as bioavailability is concerned" is the important phrase here. let's agree on the definition of bioavailability as "the rate and extent to which a drug reaches the systemic circulation"?

as you correctly say, mdma taken orally is less effective than, say, mdma, taken sublingually but, regardless of the route of administration, the drug ends up - via the systemic circulation (i.e. blood flow) - in the brain, where the magic happens.

aside, tearitdown, if the injection to which you refer is intravenous, bioavailability is by definition, 100%. if the injection is intramuscular, the figure will be lower due to factors such as solubility of the drug and blood flow at the site & dispersion of the injected solution.

alasdair
I didn't specify IV or IM because I've personally never taken MDMA this way and have read very little on the subject. IV should be 100%, yes, whereas IM may be just a tad lower(90-99%) and as you mentioned, can vary depending on the conditions of the injection.

And yes, I would agree on that definition. Essentially, it all comes down to a few factors. They include: Your weight, RoA, and past experiences with MDMA, but is not limited to those three. I have chem lab now but if I have time/remember later I'll elaborate further.
 
Im not saying the biavability of oral is better, Im saying the HIGH is better. As in, its a more serotonergic and empathy filled high. Obviously injection of MDMA is going to have a higher BA%.

What Im saying, is that when taken orally, the entire serotonin system (including the MAJOR part of it in your gut) works and flows better.


For your "How is the stomach stimulated?" question, I thought it was pretty simple. Serotonin is a key in the digestion in our stomachs, so its almost directly breaking down the MDMA when you take it. You dont think somewhere in that time, the parts of our stomach that are involved in out moods can be affected?


Remember the butterflys you get in your tummy as your MDMA is kicking in? They are the same ones you get when your nervous... there is an obvious connection between the gut and the brain, as I have already proved. Please tell me how MDMA doesnt play into this connection, even though regular food does.
 
Im not saying the biavability of oral is better, Im saying the HIGH is better. As in, its a more serotonergic and empathy filled high. Obviously injection of MDMA is going to have a higher BA%.

What Im saying, is that when taken orally, the entire serotonin system (including the MAJOR part of it in your gut) works and flows better.


For your "How is the stomach stimulated?" question, I thought it was pretty simple. Serotonin is a key in the digestion in our stomachs, so its almost directly breaking down the MDMA when you take it. You dont think somewhere in that time, the parts of our stomach that are involved in out moods can be affected?


Remember the butterflys you get in your tummy as your MDMA is kicking in? They are the same ones you get when your nervous... there is an obvious connection between the gut and the brain, as I have already proved. Please tell me how MDMA doesnt play into this connection, even though regular food does.

Folley mate -read what your actually saying!
 
Why do you think ecstasy abusers often talk about stomach pains and issues? Because the stomach is affected by the MDMA.


Our Second Brain If you’ve ever had your stomach in knots before speaking in public, then you know the stomach listens carefully to the brain. In fact, according to William Whitehead, PhD, a professor of medicine and an adjunct professor of psychology at the University of North Carolina, the entire digestive system is closely attuned to a person’s emotions and state of mind. People with irritable bowel syndrome often suffer symptoms during times of stress and anxiety, and even perfectly healthy people can have an increase of stomach pain, nausea, constipation or diarrhea during stressful life events. In recent years the link between the nervous system and the digestive system has been recognized. There is a constant exchange of chemicals and electrical messages between the two systems. In fact, many scientists often refer to them as one entity; the brain-gut axis. Therefore, what affects the stomach will directly affect the brain and vice versa. Medications designed to target the brain can also cause nausea, diarrhea, constipation or abdominal upset because the body actually has two brains – one encased in the skull, and a lesser known but vitally important one found in the human gut. Fat-soluble drugs penetrate the gut wall and can injure the natural balance of the digestive system. Antidepressants, benzodiazepines and sleeping pills are all fat-soluble, meaning they dissolve in fat and not water.SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors) are believed to ease depression by enhancing levels of Serotonin to the brain. But 95% of the Serotonin in the body lies in the digestive system, and diverting the supplies of Serotonin from their natural receptors can increase anxiety, alter sleep patterns, cause sexual dysfunction and adversely affect the cardiovascular region. Balancing the hotbed of Serotonin production in the gut is critical to restoring the balance. Some scientists believe that SSRIs boost Serotonin in the gut and change the signals to the brain, since antidepressants prevent the uptake of Serotonin by cells that should be using it. But Serotonin is calming to the digestive tract. This may explain why some SSRI users experience nausea, stomach upset, constipation, diarrhea, and fluctuations in appetite. GABA receptors for Benzodiazepines and Sleeping Pills are also located in the gut and depress gastrointestinal movement, which can cause constipation. But the continued use of medications that target GABA also increase the level of stress on the body. And in many ways, the connection between stress and the gut may be the most visible brain-gut connection. Chronic stress can result in indigestion, ulcers and a host of uncomfortable symptoms, including colon spasms. This may explain why the gut naturally produces benzodiazepines, to keep the natural state of calm that is necessary for proper functioning. Nearly every chemical that controls the brain is also located in the stomach region, including hormones and neurotransmitters such as Serotonin, Dopamine, Glutamate, GABA and Norepinephrine. The gut contains 100 million neurons – more than the spinal cord. But there are also two-dozen small brain proteins; major cells of the immune system; one class of the body’s natural opiates; and native benzodiazepines. The gut, known as the enteric nervous system, is located in sheaths of tissue lining the esophagus, stomach, small intestine and colon, and plays a key role in human emotions. But few know the enteric nervous system exists, and therefore gut health is often overlooked. Symptoms from the two brains can get confused, and just as the brain can upset the gut, the gut can also upset the brain. The brain signals the gut region by talking to a small number of command neurons, which in turn signal relay neurons that carry messages and control the pattern of activity in the gut. The term Solar Plexus simply refers to the nerves in the abdomen. But these plexuses also contain cells that nourish neurons and are involved in immune response and the protection of the “blood brain barrier” to keep harmful substances away from the important neurons. There are also sensors for sugar, protein, acid and other factors that monitor the progress of digestion, determining how the gut mixes and handles it’s contents.

When the central brain encounters severe tension, it releases stress hormones that prepare the body for flight or fight. The stomach in turn contains many sensory nerves that are stimulated by this chemical surge – thus the feeling of butterflies. Fear also causes the Serotonin circuits in the gut to increase their intensity, resulting in diarrhea.

There is a natural symphony of chemicals in the stomach region that balance our emotions, sleep, pain and energy. Benzodiazepines cause profound alterations throughout the brain and gut and an eventual reduction in GABA levels. Dose tolerance and abrupt withdrawals may be accompanied by uncontrolled release of Dopamine, Serotonin and other neurotransmitters. Lower GABA levels cause an increase in Norepinephrine that encourages quick emotional responses such as anger, and discourages deliberate logical thinking. High Norepinephrine causes adrenalin to be released, which can cause the heart to beat faster and harder. This also causes red corpuscle reserves to be placed in the bloodstream, which in turn causes energy sources, nutrients and oxygen to be diverted from organs and into the muscles. This is where high blood pressure occurs. But low GABA also causes a decrease in Serotonin, which makes sleep difficult and causes depression, irritability and a lack of rational emotion. The benzodiazepine receptors are also involved in the regulation of pain perception, modulation of the immune and inflammatory systems, and the protection of cells from damage by free radicals. This helps to explain why continued use of benzodiazepines can increase pain and cause a breakdown of the immune system, while also inducing anxiety and insomnia.

Source: http://www.pointofreturn.com/gut_health.html

There is an UNDENIABLE connection between our emotions, and our stomach. Why exactly is it so crazy to think that MDMA can strengthen, or at least enhance in experience, this connection?
 
Folley is right about one thing though, bombing it leads to more love and empathy which leads me to believe more serotonin is released.

Don't ask me how I ain't no scientist.
 
Folley is right about one thing though, bombing it leads to more love and empathy which leads me to believe more serotonin is released.

Don't ask me how I ain't no scientist.

More love and empathy than what? Are you actually trying to tell me that bombing leads to a more loved up feeling than snorting, plugging, sub or IV'ng! When your peaking on MDMA = your PEAKING! The ROA means nothing - the ROA simply effects the time it takes you to PEAK.
 
Are you actually trying to tell me that bombing leads to a more loved up feeling than snorting


YES.

As has already been the subject of quite a few discussions around here.


and actually, it could be argued that plugging and sublingual still provide just as loved up feelings as eating it, because they are still broken down by the digestive system (that is controlled by serotonin)
 
More love and empathy than what? Are you actually trying to tell me that bombing leads to a more loved up feeling than snorting, plugging, sub or IV'ng! When your peaking on MDMA = your PEAKING! The ROA means nothing - the ROA simply effects the time it takes you to PEAK.

never plugged or IV'd

snorting ime gives more of a rush or a buzz, but less love. also doesnt last as long and feels like a waste.
 
not sure how it works... but I'm convinced that I get a different come-up and different peak feeling when I crush pills in my mouth as opposed to swallowing them whole
 
folley, there is a connection between our digestive system and our central nervous system but it does not account for nonsense you are now spewing. i'm sorry, i've danced around this long enough and tried to be polite. you don't understand the mechanism by which mdma works. at all. you've latched on to this idea that, because there is serotonin in the stomach, there has to be a connection.

you're wrong. you're dead wrong.

you keep coming back to this idea that "mdma works on serotonin". mdma does not work on serotonin. mdma causes neurons in the brain to release serotonin. there's a huge difference.

you misunderstand this and your simplistic choice of phrase - "mdma works on serotonin" - shows that you simply do not understand what's happening here.

your interchangeable use of the term 'sert' in place of serotonin shows that you simply do not understand what's happening here.

the fact that you think the copypasta you've used here somehow proves your point shows that you do not understand what's happening here.

the fact that you say "so its almost directly breaking down the MDMA when you take it" shows that you know absolutely nothing about what's happening here. serotonin doesn't 'break down' mdma. what on earth does that mean?

the fact that you say that "the entire serotonin system (including the MAJOR part of it in your gut) works and flows better. " shows that you do not understand what's happening here.

when people plug mdma the onset is quicker and the effects seem to be, for many, stronger. why is that? is it because the part of the 'serotonin system' that is in your rectum is 'working and flowing better' because it's 'almost directly breaking down the mdma' when you plug it?

no. of course not. the effects are explained by the simply fact that bioavailability is higher when plugging. more of the mdma gets to your brain and faster.

seriously, if you won't listen to me, listen to bearlove. i'm not sure why you're so attached to spreading this misinformation but it flies in the face of everything bl is about...

:\

alasdair
 
Right, it gets to your brain faster through snorting. It takes it through a completely different route to get to the brain, correct?

So why cant you understand that one can act differently from the other? No I dont know much about the science behind it. Your trying to make me look stupid, but no shit MDMA releases serotonin into the synapses, and that overflow of serotonin causes most, but not all of the effects. I could just assume that you already know this and save some time, or waste half my day typing out everything there is to say on the subject.


The fact of the matter is, oral MDMA is more loved up than snorted. My theory explains this. What is yours again?
 
Folley, all I can say is
doublefacepalm.jpg
 
The fact of the matter is, oral MDMA is more loved up than snorted.
it's not a fact. it's your opinion.
My theory explains this. What is yours again?
that's a pretty childish response. your 'theory' doesn't explain anything because you're completely unable to explain what vague speculation like "mdma stimulates serotonin in your gut" means in practice.

yet again, your moronic assertion that "mdma works on serotonin" shows in 4 words that you have no idea what you're talking about :\

alasdair
 
What he should have said was something like, "I now realize the errors of my ways and acknowledge that MDMA only releases (sends signals) serotonin created by the enzyme TPH1 and that orally administering the chemical may cause some loss of potency, or bioavailability, as my stomach acid will destroy some of the MDMA before my body can metabolize it properly. Furthermore, I apologize for my 'pigeon-chess behavior' and see how foolish it was to assume everything I thought was true without any background information and very little background knowledge of this subject, and intend on picking up a book on Chemistry and Human Physiology so as to make myself a more intelligent human."
 
OK alasdairm, lets look at your agrument.


So far it is that I dont have enough evidence to back up my claim, but you also have absolutely NO evidence to disprove it.


Ive already proved there is a connection between the feelings the neurons in your brain create, and your stomach. The only thing I havent proved, is how MDMA plays into this. Im sure many after hours of research l could prove this, but Im not a scientist, and honestly, I dont give that much of a shit.


Everyone I have talked to about this, says that MDMA is much more speedy and less loved up when snorted. Considering serotonin is NEEDED by your body to digest anything, I can safely assume that the SERT in your stomach is stimulated as your body breaks down the MDMA. In about the same way that its stimulated when you eat a turkey sandwich, I would guess.



Try snorting MDMA, than 3 months later try bombing it. Tell me which is more effective, and tell me that the snorting is better because it hits faster.

You will look like a fucking retard to everyone on this forum. Go look at the recent threads on snorting MDMA, you will find almost everyone to agree that snorting is SHIT compared to eating it. And they all say its a speedier, less empathetic high (IE: less serotonin)
 
MDMA doesn't work once it is "broken down". The chemical binds to specific receptors in it's regular form and is then broken down into metabolites as the body tries to get rid of it. I could accept your theory if you were saying that MDMA stimulated serotonin release in the gut and as a result more serotonin reaches the brain. Snorting is shit because of all the gunky build up you eventually pick out of your nose. A lot will cross into the blood stream quickly (as opposed to having to travel to the stomach, dissolve and then cross into the blood stream, hence you get a quicker onset by snorting but likely a lot more won't even cross into the bloodstream.

Don't underestimate how corrosive MDMA is to the GI tract. Anyone who has held some under their tongue will tell you it burns, often leaving a nasty ulcer. Butterflies in your stomach is just as likely to be you stomach reacting to a harsh chemical stimulus.

Don't dismiss your own lack of scientific background, many great discoveries have come from someone who thought outside the square and I would love to think your theory is correct and you have discovered a useful reason to bomb MDMA instead of snorting, but as bear love and ali have stated this is a harm reduction centric site and as a result we must adhere to scientific principles when we hand out information.
 
So far it is that I dont have enough evidence to back up my claim, but you also have absolutely NO evidence to disprove it.
some salmon live in trees and eat pencils. until you disprove this, let's assume it's true.

again, the fact that you refer to serotonin as 'sert', and talk about 'mdma stimulating serotonin' tells anybody reading this everything they need to know about your hopeless lack of knowledge in this area.

alasdair
 
Whats wrong with abbvs?

I can disprove that salmon live in trees. You cant disprove that your stomach can make you happy, and that MDMA can trigger this, and when in combination with the serotonin entering the synapses, it leads to a higher quality roll.


Ive been on a "binge" of sorts the last week, and the kind of work you want me to do to prove this just isnt gonna happen now. Im sure it could, but the hours of searching it will take to firmly establish a connection can be used on the homework I was supposed to do last week.

When Im sober and feeling motivated, we will see.
 
Whats wrong with abbvs?
there's nothing wrong with abbreviations when they are used correctly. 'sert' is not an accepted abbreviation of serotonin. in this context sert is short for serotonin transporter which is something quite different. again, you display your ignorance.
I can disprove that salmon live in trees.
then do so.

alasdair
 
Top