capped mdma

[rocknroll702]

is it best to swallow mdma in a cap and let it disolve normally or best to pour the contents on ur tongue and wait?

some kid told me that he poured something on in his mouth /tongue rather than swallowing it and he said he didnt feel much of anything.
he said that he ate like 45 minutes prior to doing that..

was wondering how much differently this affects it because most people are blown away from what he says he eat and felt nothing?

 

[Contained]

I've tried both swallowing in a gel cap (quite a few times) and putting it on my tongue (once). I say better to swallow in a capsule as I'd immagine that when you just pour the powder in your mouth you would lose some as it went down into your stomach. I could be wrong though, it just seemed that when I put the powder straight on my tongue it was not nearly as good. Parachuting is also a great option

 

[Chesh]

wrap it in a rizzla, chuck it down your throat.

i did it with a gel cap once and it took a lot longer imo.

 

[Folley]

If its already in a cap, I would say just leave it in, unless you want to reagent test of course. Sublingual (absorbed through the mouth) will hit faster/harder than oral, and will actually be very similar to plugging it. However, like 90% of your serotonin is located in your gut, so oral MDMA always seems to provide the most empathy and euphoria

 

[alasdairm]

^ the fact that serotonin is present in the gut does not mean that orally ingested mdma is somehow more potent or effective. all of the effects of mdma take place in the neurons in the brain...

alasdair

 

[Folley]

It could mean the release of more serotonin however, as there a LARGE connection between the sert in your brain and in your gut.

Ask anyone whos snorted MDMA, it is much more of the dopamine rush feeling than the normal serotonin induced love. Is this directly caused of the amount of serotonin in the gut? Maybe not, but it seems like a very reasonable explanation to me.

 

[alasdairm]

could? the mechanism by which mdma creates its euphoric effect is well understood. can you provide some background for your claims? thanks.

alasdair

 

[Folley]

No.


How exactly would that study be carried out? Giving MDMA through different RoAs and measuring the amounts of serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine/prolactin/other levels?

I dont think thats been done, no. Nor do I really feel that could be done accurately. Now based on subjective effects and experience with both oral and snorted MDMA, I feel I can safely say that an oral dose will release a higher amount of the chemicals in your brain that are responsible for the "love" of MDMA.

I see no other reason that oral would so much more effective, other than the fact that it stimulates the serotonin in your gut as well as your brain.



Never heard of the brain-gut connection?

 

[Bearlove]

^you missed the change in term/question. How its absorbed / where the effects take place. The effects are in your brain / how they get there is another thing!


To the OP - If you know the substance is MDMA then just drop the entire capsule. It may take a small amount of time longer to come up (start working) but it will shorten your experience.

 

[alasdairm]

I see no other reason that oral would so much more effective, other than the fact that it stimulates the serotonin in your gut as well as your brain.

just because you can't see something...

i'd ask anybody with deeper knowledge in this area to chime in but my limited reading suggests that you know there's serotonin produced in the gut and, from there, adding 2 and 2 to get 5.

Never heard of the brain-gut connection?

i have and, again, even the most cursory reading suggests that you misunderstand what it means. as bearlove (so elegantly) says "the effects are in your brain".

you say "the fact that it stimulates the serotonin in your gut as well as your brain". if this is, indeed, a fact, then you should no trouble whatsoever pointing to a couple of items that substantiate this claim. if you can't or won't do that, what conclusion would you have us draw?

bluelight's mission is one of harm-reduction and the solid foundation of that has to be fact. if people makes claims, it's not petty to expect them to back up their claim with some substantiation. we should not only expect to do this, we should encourage each other as bluelight will be better for it.

alasdair

 

[Tyrone_biggums]

Nothing to do with your "gut"
It's all about getting it in your bloodstream = BIOAVAILABILTY (google it)
Fastest way into your bloodstream in order is:
IV
Rectally
insufflation
sublingual
oral
( you would be surprised how much potency you lose orally )

 

[Folley]

^ Thats just how fast it hits, that has nothing to do with bioavailability... BA is how much of the substance is absorbed, and some RoAs absorb more than others.

The second brain informs our state of mind in other more obscure ways, as well. "A big part of our emotions are probably influenced by the nerves in our gut," Mayer says. Butterflies in the stomach—signaling in the gut as part of our physiological stress response, Gershon says—is but one example. Although gastrointestinal (GI) turmoil can sour one's moods, everyday emotional well-being may rely on messages from the brain below to the brain above. For example, electrical stimulation of the vagus nerve—a useful treatment for depression—may mimic these signals, Gershon says.

Given the two brains' commonalities, other depression treatments that target the mind can unintentionally impact the gut. The enteric nervous system uses more than 30 neurotransmitters, just like the brain, and in fact 95 percent of the body's serotonin is found in the bowels. Because antidepressant medications called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) increase serotonin levels, it's little wonder that meds meant to cause chemical changes in the mind often provoke GI issues as a side effect. Irritable bowel syndrome—which afflicts more than two million Americans—also arises in part from too much serotonin in our entrails, and could perhaps be regarded as a "mental illness" of the second brain.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gut-second-brain


Serotonin in the gut plays a roll in the serotonin that controls our brain. Without one, the other could not work. So when MDMA is taken through ways other than orally, the stomach is not stimulated as much, and serotonin is released at a lower rate, or perhaps the effects of the serotonin in the brain are poteniated by the ones in the stomach? Possible as well.


This is just a hypothesis of mine, but I have found nothing to discredit it, and personal and others experience's echo exactly what Im saying. Its just common sense, 90% of your SERT is in your stomach. If your MDMA doesnt go down there, its not going to stimulate it at all, but if you eat it, it is in direct contact with the entire system.

 

[alasdairm]

This is just a hypothesis of mine, but I have found nothing to discredit it, and personal and others experience's echo exactly what Im saying. Its just common sense, 90% of your SERT is in your stomach. If your MDMA doesnt go down there, its not going to stimulate it at all, but if you eat it, it is in direct contact with the entire system.

you say that mdma "stimulates the serotonin in your gut". what does that mean in practice? what is being stimulated and how, exactly? what physiological processes are in effect?

when you talk about serotonin being released "at a lower rate" what are you talking about? released from where? to where?

the serotonin release mechanism which is commonly discussed in the context of mdma use is the release of serotonin from neurons in the brain into synapses in the brain.

aside, saying "this is what i think and we'll assume it's true until you disprove it" is a ridiculous stance to take and it is not in keeping with the generally high level of discourse at bluelight. if you make a claim, it's your responsibility to back it up, to make your case. if you can't or won't do that, the conclusion is normally pretty obvious...

alasdair

 

[Folley]

Can you tell me what makes this seem so off to you then? Im not writing an essay on this shit, I have hardly anymore pharmacological than the common street thug. But let me just get it straight here, you want me to explain how the serotonin in our gut factors into our emotions (something scientists dont even understand yet), then how MDMA causes that connection is made stronger by MDMA.

No, I cant do that.

What you want would require a great amount of time, for a very simple concept:

MDMA works on serotonin, there is serotonin in the stomach. MDMA taken orally almost always has MUCH more empathy/serotonergic activity than snorted MDMA, so MDMA in the stomach causes more serotonergic activity.


Thats my hypothesis, if you can find anything to discredit it I would love to continue this discussion with you, but to say I have no hard facts to back this up only tells me what I already know. Thats what studies are for, and Im not the one doing those.



Right now your saying that the serotonin in the gut has no play on the serotonin in our brains, so wheres your proof on that? I already posted a study saying the opposite of that, and could find some others pretty easily.

To think that the serotonin in our gut is completely seperate from the SERT in our brain is rather ignorant, I would say. Our bodies are more interconnecting than we will ever know, every system in our body is related somehow. With such a large connection already proven between the two sites of SERT, I dont see how this doesnt make sense to you.

Just because something hasnt been proven, doesnt mean its not real. Just the same as just because it hasn't been disproven doesnt mean it is real.

 

[alasdairm]

No, I cant do that.

q.e.d.

MDMA works on serotonin, there is serotonin in the stomach.

you are absolutely adding 2 and 2 and getting 5.

mdma doesn't just "work on serotonin". that's a very simplistic description of how mdma does what it does and this simplification is, i believe, leading you to make a crude - and incorrect - assumption about the gut because it just so happens there's serotonin there too...

mdma has a very specific effect on serotonin release in the brain. it causes neurons in the brain to release serotonin into the synapses in the brain. that's how mdma works.

there are no neurons in the gut. there are no synapses in the gut.

the fact that you seem to be using the terms serotonin and sert seemingly interchangeably simply reinforces the fact that you don't really have a firm grasp on what you're talking about here. they're two related but different things.

you say that mdma "stimulates the serotonin in your gut". what does that mean? it's a simple question. you should be able to address it - on second time of asking - with a simple answer.

here's a simple description of how mdma works: Ecstasy Slideshow (This Is Your Brain on Ecstasy)

how does that process map to the process you are describing whereby mdma "stimulates the serotonin in your gut"? please address this question.

alasdair

 

[B.mans]

I can't believe people are actually discussing this. Pouring MDMA on your tongue? Who does that? Have you ever tasted that stuff? Just swallow it like everyone else.

 

[Shifty38]

Capping is the way I do it. Take an antacid an hour before dropping. Means you lose less to stomach acid - so I'm told.

 

[TearItDown]

Since there seems to be some discussion on this matter I'll chime in as requested.

Taking MDMA orally is MUCH different than taking it sublingually, Folley made an error in his original statement and has had to suffer for his choice of words. Taking MDMA orally is the least efficient want to take it, as far as bioavailibility is concerned.

It goes as follows,
Orally: 55-70% BA
Sublingually: 65-80%
Insufflation: 70-85%
Rectally: 85-90+%
Injection: Unknown (possible 90-100%)

That being said, it is possible to drink your own pee that you may save while rolling and drink it to roll again. Hope I helped?

EDIT: To clear up any confusion, Orally is consuming it straight off, sublingual administration means it absorbs through the mucous membranes under your tongue. If you take it this way you will feel the under side of your tongue burn after a few minutes.

 

[alasdairm]

Taking MDMA orally is MUCH different than taking it sublingually...as far as bioavailibility is concerned.

"as far as bioavailability is concerned" is the important phrase here. let's agree on the definition of bioavailability as "the rate and extent to which a drug reaches the systemic circulation"?

as you correctly say, mdma taken orally is less effective than, say, mdma, taken sublingually but, regardless of the route of administration, the drug ends up - via the systemic circulation (i.e. blood flow) - in the brain, where the magic happens.

aside, tearitdown, if the injection to which you refer is intravenous, bioavailability is by definition, 100%. if the injection is intramuscular, the figure will be lower due to factors such as solubility of the drug and blood flow at the site & dispersion of the injected solution.

alasdair

 

[Bearlove]

[Bear looks in, sees the shit storm brewing and quickly leaves 8(...]