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Do you think Jesus would frown on psychedelic use?

Leave it here please :-) :-) I think it'd be relevant in both, but this is intended towards the discussion specifically of psychedelics and possible integration into devoted spiritual practice. And there's a good few philosophers who believe psychedelics to be at the root of some religions...ie sacred mushroom and the cross etc.

The legitimate connection to Psychedelics makes it meant for here...the other is 'drug culture' right? This is for psychedelic ears more so I'd say :-) no big deal either way, but I'm just trying to say the focus is psychedelics.
 
i think that if you are a good person god wouldnt give a fuck what you do in your off time. just because the most popular religions in our society right now frown upon doesnt mean that in the future the most popular church wouldnt support taking them. you are taught from when you were a child to not do things just because everyone else is. so in this case just because most religions dont like it does not = its bad. but of course reality is very dependent on how you perceive it so i guess if enough people truly believe one way then it could be true right? tis a mind fuck.

i just know that some of the most profound experiences i have had were on psychs so maybe it just depends on how you use it. maybe just using them to get fucked up is bad but as a tool is good. i prefer to use them as both ;)
 
Jesus gave people wine, so he obviously didn't have a problem with mind altering substances.

His entire message was love your neighbor and love your enemy. If there were drugs other than alcohol that could help a person do this, I'm sure he would embrace them.
 
I think some of the main points to take into consideration is that Christians do not just follow gods law, for the bible said that gods law is above all else, but you must also follow the law of your land. And in most countries drugs are outlawed. (Deuteronomy 17:2; Ecclesiastes 8:2-5; Matthew 22:21; 23:2-3;

Something else to take into consideration is that there are many different sanctions and churches for Christianity. Each one of them differing from the other as they interpret the bible differently. A lot of these new churches start up because the founders interpret the bible the way they want to as to remove sin from the things they do so they can live a life in clear conscious.
The bible only lists alcohol as the intoxicant as to which not indulge in for it opens up your soul to Lucifer (satan). Most churches take this as all drugs that intoxicate you open up your soul to satan because that's their interpretation and what their church believes in. I have not come across any churches that believe differently, but that doesn't mean there isn't.

A good example of this is Corinthians 6:12
12 c“All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything.
Is he saying only god can undertake in intoxicants because he will never lose control? or is he saying it is okay to use drugs if you stay in control. It's really up to you


Jesus gave people wine, so he obviously didn't have a problem with mind altering substances.

His entire message was love your neighbor and love your enemy. If there were drugs other than alcohol that could help a person do this, I'm sure he would embrace them.


Wine was popular to drink because it was less contaminated and safer to drink than the local water supply. Over drinking and becoming intoxicated is listed many many many times in the bible as bad as it opens you up to the devil, not being completely in control of yourself to fight back gives him more power to overcome you and make you sin more. (Ephesians 5:18; Proverbs 23:29-35;
 
I have to say this. I dont know if Jesus would have condoned psychedelics, but I bet Bolon Yotke would!!!
 
Thanks for all the thoughts internettoughguy :-) good stuff.

I personally lost all interest in what I personally define to be intoxication at the same point that i had my 'spiritual awakening' or the 'realization of my purpose'. When i began meditating daily at 16 I decided not to drink at all because I didn't like the dizzying sensations...I appreciate awareness. Not trying to spur any kind of 'my drug is better than yours' elitism, but psychedelics for me are generally not intoxicating by my definiton. N high doses I may lose myself at a certain point which is certainly less than a coherent state lol, but on lower doses, which I usually veer towards for my uses, I experience increased awarenes and little-to-no 'dizzying'. Again, this is only my def, but I consider intoxicants effect as being something which obscures my decision-making abilities and/or my sensory lucidity. I practice seeing my mind through the back seat of core-observation consciousness in my meditations, so on medium doses of psychedelics I am not distracted by or made confused through the 'seeing of my mental constructs'...

Lol, not trying to say Jesus would high five me for my approach or anything...but I can relate to the quest of centering the consciousness and avoiding intoxication. I only seldom consme psychedelics, never amphetamines, Mdma, pharms, alcohol or anything which i think will be hard on my body, or dizzying and distracting to my awareness. :-)

Good discussion though guys, I knew this could get some ideas flowing philosophically without being argumentative ping-pong controversy. Lol, I was a little worried this idea would be frowned upon after my first response was simply the word "remove" :-)
 
I don't think he would see anything wrong with the consumption of either Shrooms or Mesaline, but, I think only if it was an honest mistake and the person had a revalation from it unintentionally. To get high? Nah I don't think he'd support it. And WOW, MDMA is an amazing chemical, try it once at LEAST, you will NOT be disappointed.... people underestimate it's psychedelic values man.... Or ma'me =)
 
It is real hard to say whether Jesus would partake... He did drink the wine.

According to prohibitionist sects like Baptists, Methodists, et al. he just drank grape juice, never wine. lol


And I would like to psychically slap any Christian who tries to quote the written Torah to support his beliefs, for by denying the oral Torah and all the tradition that goes into explaining and interpreting it, they butcher and distort the text within. They deny most of the mitzvah while selectively quoting some that push forth their agenda and spread all sorts of negativity across the land. Plus the laws of the Covenant within are binding only to Jews (aside from the seven Noahic commandments which are binding on all peoples). They ought to keep to trying to fulfill what Christ asked of them in Gospels, and the man had some tough standards to live up to, follow that and everything else should fall in place says I.

Actually, given my above views (and the fact that I haven't really read through the new testament all that closely aside from the 4 canonical Gospels, I'll get around to it, but that's really the meat of it all), I can definitely jive with the thoughts expressed by some of the previous posters that Christ might be against even productive psychedelic use. By having faith and taking up the burden of spreading the word and living it, you should be able to access all that psychs could teach you of value (from the religion's perspective) while perfectly sober.

The psychedelic experience teaching you love and shit would be superfluous, the faithful do not need it. Let us recall the parable of the sower: Luke 8:5-8
A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds ate it up. Some fell on rocky ground, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up with it and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown.
 
Genesis 1:29 said:
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Most of my deepest and most sincere religious/spiritual awakenings have been during the course of a trip. I have a hard time imagining that God would damn anyone for taking psychedelics.
 
jackiejones said:
Most of my deepest and most sincere religious/spiritual awakenings have been during the course of a trip. I have a hard time imagining that God would damn anyone for taking psychedelics.

They didn't start damning people to The Fire until the New Testament (I really don't understand how people say G-d is cruel in the Old Testament but nice in the New, it seems the opposite to me if you read the Jewish and then Christian views on things). Genesis and the like in the Torah don't really say anything definitive about even the existence of an afterlife.
 
Not trying to question you, or argue...
But what if someone lived in the woods, and mushroms were a viable source of protein. I'm a vegan, and would rather incorporate moderate amounts of psilocybe mushroom as a food staple than to kill an animal for food. Obviously, most people do not eat them as a food source, but honestly, I think its a fine line...eating cactus in particular Feels healthy for my body ( I don't puke, I eat raw clean stuff, go figure), I feel the antioxidants ( read somewhere its almost a 'superfood' in its potency of vitamins and antioxs) and the proteins and it feels veryright physically. Mescaline also, in particular honestly produces little-to-no intoxicatin in my awareness, I am very very coherent when i work with the cactus. If i lived in a dessert I would totally scavange for edible cacti...and from a health stand point, San Pedro is an edible cacti...ESP since, like I said, for me I exp no nausea or incoherency.

I think all the plants which grow around us have food and medicinal value, if you know what to do with them. Even poisonous plants generally have medical application if you know what you're doing. I consume psychedelics more in the traditional shamanic-light of not only learning from my teacher plants, but also I go to them as medicine...I'm not gong to argue the application of spirit medicine here, but honestly, I feel drawn towards these pants on seldom occasions because t feels like the appropriate medicine. Just as I do not eat echinecea or milk thistle as a food staple, I am on drawn towards them when i feel the need for medicine.

Also, I do lots of detoxification work, juice fasting raw-foodism, saunas etc. And from my personal exp, of course with my own biased-salt grains, psychedelics have a certain function in the releasing of stored toxins physically...lol, no proof, but I have a good amt of exp with the consumption if known 'detox agents' such as wheat grass and certain medicine herbs...and the physical sensations of consuming san Pedro in particular feel very similar..kinda feels like you're sweating from your core or something...a solidity underneath what one normally views as 'ones self' from which strength emmenates and 'pushes outward' stale enerhies and goopy toxins ( a little empirical proof there, through sauning and biking 20-40 miles a day I can tell the variations of 'what's coming out' in my sweat based on smel and feel lol. When you're truly squeezin out the shit it feels all thick and slimy, gross lol) diet is a factor of course, but when detoxing I'm often juice fasting, so i see the stabilization of sweat secretions before adding the 'detox agent' lol.
 
" no way man jesus probably on acid man didnt you see how long his hair was ? "

well yeah ...
 
tumblr_lxs1cuj1R61rn4iaio1_500.jpg



That is all.
 
Mushrooms grow only seasonally...IF one was living a hermetic lifestyle, then they could be a serious tool for survival when God lets them rise seasonally. Not the same for you and I, just saying, in the wild you don'always get to choose..depending on location you may need to eat psilocybes to survive lol....and then also, n terms of their level of alteration, what if one was seeking to live a pure and unintoxicated life, and they scavange through the woods to survive. They obtain a handful of psilocybes, and ration them off as to avoid losing coherency....same fine line right...?

I just can see a situation using the model of 'natural living' wherein someone would use what god gives them to survive, and still be handed a psychedelic. :-)

A missionary once gave me a bible quote about the message of God being written on the hearts of man. I was asking about what if someone had no contact with Christianity, would they still lose the chance for salvation. His answer was a quote, which I liked. The jist was, even if one never encounters the bible the 'truth' and 'right thing to do' is with him in his heart.

That being said, the main qualm i have with organizednreligion is the reliance on doctrine to determine right and wrong. I respect that many people can relate to diff holy books, and its awesome that books like that can turn people on to spirituality. But, I've always felt what is right for me to do, and while this is parallel to the ten commandments idea, I've never felt really compelled to 'sign the paperwork' regarding the "acceptance of Jesus christ as my lord and savior"...I would love for it to be that easy, but for me the answer is in the question. My understanding of what God wants of me, comes not through reading, but through silencing myself and listening for the answers that God has placed within me, and within the exps he gives me.

One of my primary tenants: I Accept My Own Fallability. I don't know that I will ever experience true perfection of understanding...for me to claim that I am confident and positive regarding the specifics of God and all these Divine energies which go so far beyond my scope of view seems disrespectful. I do believe, without a doubt....I can feel the presence of truth, of God, of love in my daily life...but am I positive as to the specifics of 'exactly what is right' ...? No. I know what is right for me right now, but I don't feel comfortable generalizing inherent right es and wrongness and overlaying that opinion over my world view. I am toooo Fallible...even if God showed me infinity personlly, even if i was given words directly from the creator, They Become Flawed when they enter my les-than-enlightened mind. I may exp raw and undifferentiated truth, but as soon as I associate and/or put words to the exp I accept that i will not completely portray it w/o flaw. Thus is the connundrum of human experience, we always see our own interpretation...even if the 'event' or 'vision' we're interpreting is handed directly from the divine.

I am shown things regularly, I meditate daily, I receive insight and visions when they are necessary. And they are highly pertainant to my life...I am in no way a doubter, I believe to the fullest, I just accept that my puny little mind will always misinterperet to a degree, and thus I cannot fully say that I 'understand god'. I believe God to be an essence so immense and all-encompassing that the human mind cannot even fathom...it is only true exp of the divine which is undifferentiated..... retrospective intillectual analysis or linguistic arrangements will always fall short i believe.

And since i question my own fallability...naturally (though acknowledging that others may be less fallible than myself) I have to assume that others will be less-than-perfect as well. So a book written by man, even if the visions and understandings that led to it were true exps of divinity, will never b a perfect view of that vision.....lol, and of course when i think of 2000+ years of fallible (and unfortunately some of which may be corrupt as well) humans passing around and re-interpereting, updating and translating into diff languages this info which was less than perfect after one non-perfect human, now I have to presume it is even more fallible than it was when it started in text form.

To each their own :-) I love that there are different religions, I feel no one message would relate to every-man. And I know my practice of 'listening to my heart' without having a holy book or a community of very like-,minded practicers, would also not be right for everyone. The beauty of Creation....! Truly a blessing, winding avenues and moments which bring us further toward truth. Couldn't ask for more :-)

So maybe the answer to this threads question lies not in words, but in the silent assessment of one's own practice. Only you (and God;)) know what your intentions are...and only you are at the vantage point capable of feeling how those intentions interact with the currents around you. Are you intoxicating and distracting yourself, or does the exp truly feel right? :-)
 
There's something to be said of the tendancy for a psychedelic exp to make even aetheists feel that there's something powerful happening....lol, not all of them, but I've seen people who were hedonistic and not interested I spirituality turn a 180 from one exp.

If that isn't divine intervention I don't know what is :-) some people are total ass-holes and after a trip, they see the error of their ways. Not everyone of coursenlol, but you guys know whatbi mean. Its fucking beautiful that someone can 'become a believer' from a plant that has been given to us..!
 
But, if your going to argue that you choose to eat psilocybin mushrooms for protein or whatever nutrients, there is no argument for that, because your consciousness is simply far too altered, especially when there is a huge amount of mushrooms to choose from- therefore you cannot justify it. You become high, altered a lot, whatever you want to call it and IF your a christian you should know it's wrong.

I totally agree that using any psychedelic on the premise of nutrition is absurd, but I don't see how its wrong. Taking drugs isn't wrong, or immoral, or weak, or sinful. Stripping away all ideals of christian morality, nothing that you do to yourself can be seen as wrong. Its part of free will and free choice. Getting addicted to drugs and ruining your life isn't wrong either; it is really stupid though and throwing away your freedom and free will is anti-life; yet not wrong. Wrongness is an arbitrary senseless dualism that doesn't really lead to any refinement of wisdom, just a lot of guilt and confusion. I don't really believe there is an external, objective ideal of wrongness; the idea of right and wrong is a personal concept that loses meaning if it is decided by the idealism of an apparent external being. But we are as free to thrown away our free will and autonomy as we are to do anything else...

Thoughtsunthoughts, I like your ideals, though I don't agree entirely. That would be boring though, wouldn't it? :)

PiP said:
i think Krishna, Jesus or the Buddha, and the Devil would say...as they always have about evuhrything - use your common senses young God what is your intention?!?

Nice. Manifesting your Will is possibly the closest we can get to truly interacting with the entire divine cosmos, and will can only be manifested by honing intention. Maybe divinity is intent.

I've been thinking about this a bit; the idea that immorality is a negative triat is somewhat repugnant to me. I am determinedly immoral, simply because I desire the freedom to make the right decision in the right situation as opposed to making my decisions beforehand. I could say that I think some things are the right things to do and some things are wrong, but I am always excited when I reach a situation in which I am 'forced' to transgress these notions. I doubt there is a truly universal good because mindlessness can't be good, and the inability to make a choice to do evil or wrong is mindless. I would think that god, being the animating light that exists in, literally, everything, would not pass judgment on the behaviour of parts of itself. Eating psychedelics; a part of god consuming another part of god so they both exists together (at least for a moment) is as close to worshipping god as I can imagine.
 
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