First Bad Comedown
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 562
This is a pretty clear example of what is wrong with the drug community, especially among younger users.
After nearly 30 years of MDMA use, you would think that this guys 'friends' would actually know a couple of facts and WARN him about the most important risk factor.
*clears throat*
DOSAGE!
While this is true of all drugs, it is particularly important for MDMA.
And attitudes like these only contribute to the lack of understanding...
Self-induced anxiety man
Stop being a pussy and man up, it's all in your head.
Ok...
So the OP is first called a pussy.
Then he is assured by an older roller that 'comedowns have actually gotten way better' and the crash is 'compounded by getting over anxious and paranoid'.
Let me ask you guys a fucking question...
Are these the statements you would have made just prior to his intake?
Would you have lifted even a single finger to prevent a 6 WEEK+ comedown?
Or would you have watched, as his drug-using friends did, without saying the words...
"MDMA is a neurotoxin proven to cause more damage in higher or repeated doses."
I do believe that personal approach and choice play a role in recovery.
I do NOT believe that they determine the true EXTENT of anxiety.
Over a GRAM of MDMA is certainly neurotoxic.
100-250mg is recognized as the 'safe' dose on BL with newer users sticking to the lower end.
While redosing is fairly common, unfortunately, it should not be possible for a new user to go SO OVERBOARD without strong warnings from those around him.
If we have not succeeded in preventing this type of nonsense, then BL has failed the drug using community.
Not just bluelight - all drug users that came before this one had a responsibility to say reasonable things.
To give worthy advice.
I have read enough stories to understand that some MDMA users take over a GRAM in a night without more than a few shitty days afterwards.
This is not the trend, but it does happen.
I also believe George in his claims that comedowns do get easier with each use and you will always return to normal eventually.
I myself must admit that after the first few rolls, I found future rolls to be easier to handle - less grinding and quicker recovery.
Is this a sign of improvement?
No - it is a sign of adaptation.
Of 'toxicity'.
And even 14 months into recovery I am still learning that there is some 'normal' state that is always within my reach.
And I will one day achieve equilibrium.
The brain is truly astonishing in its ability to return to 'normal'.
Is this a sign of improvement?
No - it is a sign of adaptation.
The fact that rolls get easier to handle as use continues...
The fact that clinical recovery from anxiety/depression eventually happen for the vast majority of 'heavy' users...
The fact that individual behavior during recovery can influence anxiety...
This is all evidence for the plasticity of the brain.
For the awesome recovery potential from LIFE that we are gifted with.
The ability to 'roll' in the first place stems from such a gift.
MDMA, a potent neurotoxin, releases serotonin in ways that very few serotonergic substances do.
By reversing the transporter, a massive dump is achieved brain-wide.
The brain attempts to defend itself by releasing massive levels of cortisol.
This lowers brain serotonin by increasing its metabolism - its turnover.
At the same time, serotonin is inhibiting dopamine activity in 3 of the 4 major dopamine pathways.
It is also causing increases in brain blood flow as small capillaries respond.
This is a normal activity for serotonin - it is the extent that is abnormal.
Once the release of serotonin peaks and begins to fall, so does cortisol.
And dopamine is finally allowed to flow again.
Like a rubber band held under tension, the push of dopamine throughout the frontal lobes and meso-limbic reward pathway is extensive.
It is this release of dopamine, not serotonin, that truly results in magic.
Other dopamine releasing drugs exist, such as cocaine, crack, and methamphetamine.
But MDMA has a unique talent because it is not a direct dopamine releaser - it suppresses dopamine first.
And when the dopamine is released, so is a symphony of oxytocin and prolactin.
Because prolactin and dopamine do not occur simultaneously in normal brain function, it is the extended release of these two brain chemicals that truly results in a unique and magical high.
The pleasure center of the brain, the nucleus acumbens, does not normally allow this combination.
Prolactin released during orgasm actually down-regulates dopamine receptors.
And dopamine down-regulates prolactin receptors.
They have a contradictory relationship...until MDMA.
With SSRIs, it is the eventual and extended prolactin release that causes the clinical anti-depressant effect.
This can take WEEKS to set in.
And MDMA does this in about two hours.
SSRIs are also known to cause down-regulation of serotonin in the higher brain, which can result in a worsening of endocrine functioning following 'treatment'.
Sexual side-effects including anorgasmia, ejaculatory anhedonia, complete erectile dysfunction, and lack of lubrication are known to occur in many current SSRI users.
Between 60-80% report some sexual side-effects.
Shockingly, a minority of these SSRI users go on to live with complete loss of sensation, orgasm, or libido for YEARS after discontinuation.
Known as PSSD, or Post SSRI Sexual Dysfunction, this crippling disorder is thought to be caused by long-term or permanent down-regulation of dopamine receptors in the Nucleus Acumbens by extended high levels of prolactin. It actually alters gene expression, according to the epigenetic theory.
MDMA is a 'potent neurotoxin'.
Not my words.
Anything that increases serotonin can damage the SERT.
Since the transporter protein is a function of axonal density (among other things) - it can be said with reliability that anything that increases serotonin has the potential to destroy axons.
And the higher brain is home to the axons that are thinnest and most fiber-like.
The Prefrontal Cortex is the highest evolved region of our brains, sitting just behind our foreheads.
The serotonin that reaches this region has to travel the farthest from the brainstem, where all serotonin originates in the brain.
Ironically, it is not the brain that contains the most serotonin.
Up to 90% resides in the intestines.
Digestion is the primary purpose of serotonin.
Tryptophan, an amino acid found in many proteins, converts to bile and eventually serotonin.
As it is excreted and reabsorbed along the gastro-intestinal tract, it causes the smooth muscle chain that surround the GI to contract.
The intestines are not only home to the vast majority of the serotonin and serotonin receptors in the body, but they are gifted with more smooth muscle and blood vessels than any other organ in the body!
They are, in fact, a series of organs that posses their own nervous system.
It is the connection between the two nervous systems that allows serotonin to have such powerful effects on the mind.
Serotonin is the 'brain-gut' circuitry.
In the brain, serotonin activity (meaning digestion), plays a profound role in blood distribution.
This may be the reason that the serotonin network is the most dense of all neurotransmitter systems.
It also suppresses dopamine in nearby circuits, effectively giving serotonin control of dopamine targets.
Most of our dopamine is in the frontal lobes, and this is also where the most intricate and vulnerable serotonin nerves live.
The relationship between these two ancient neurotransmitter systems is beyond the true understanding of modern science.
The words I use in this post are fairly basic for a reason.
Even the most advanced scientists are unable to claim a solid understanding of these systems, despite the complexity of their language.
One thing that has been determined in MDMA research over a period of 20+ years is that MDMA causes 'toxicity' or 'adaption' in the serotonin system.
The most neutral statement is this - "MDMA is a selective neurotoxin that causes a lasting/permanent re-organization of the 5-HT network leaving higher cortical regions with lower density and limbic structures with original or higher density."
There is no debate about these findings.
But words exchanged on BL would suggest otherwise.
Somehow the young drug-using culture we are born into has forgotten the value of science.
There are still questions for sure. And science strives to achieve something that would be deemed impossible by almost any other field of study.
But there are still truths to be learned.
There are absolutes in this world.
During recovery from certain toxic doses of MDMA, one of the brain structures known to be hyper-innervated is the hypothalamus.
This is a striking finding, because the HYP is the control center for the endocrine and adrenal system.
Known as the HPA Axis, this critical juncture in the brain is the target of ALL antidepressant treatments - from SSRIs to ECT!
The hypothalamus sits at the front of the brainstem and acts as a relay station for serotonin nerves extending into our frontal lobes.
It is responsible for the massive cortisol release by the adrenal glands, which reaches 8 times the normal level!
It directs the Pituitary to release powerful hormones into the brain, such as oxytocin, prolactin, and ADH during a 'roll'.
It is here that the 'magical' effects of the drug are realized.
And it is HERE that damage is done.
Not all MDMA use reaches 'toxic' or detectable levels of 'adaptation'.
Even animal research suggests that some adaptation is so minor it is beyond current abilities to stain slices of the brain or produce images of a living brain.
This does not mean that toxicity has not occurred - it simply falls beneath the threshold of detection if doses are kept to a 'reasonable' level.
And perhaps this is enough to mean that it falls below the threshold of consequence.
But past a certain dose, or with repeated doses, the 'threshold' is left far behind.
Even after many years of recovery the higher brain is seen to exhibit loss of serotonin density.
To the OP - doses required to produce permanent and detectable changes are quite high.
Higher than the dose you took, with multiple days of dosing required in primates.
Humans are widely believed to be more sensitive than primates and the dose required to cause long-lasting changes in humans is unknown.
It depends on a variety of factors other than dosage, such as age, body mass, body temperature, gender, and likely the contents of the GI.
But dosage remains the most easily controlled and reliable factor in 'toxicity'.
Poly-drug users are at an increased risk, with long-term heavy cannabis use linked to greater psychopathology among MDMA users.
But MDMA dosage still remains the greatest controllable factor.
Former MDMA users display severe HPA Axis dysfunction - including prolonged periods of high cortisol and prolactin release.
These both implicate improper serotonin transmission.
An imbalance of dopamine can also be seen in a minority of users, similar to that seen in schizophrenics.
Eventually the brain does establish the capacity to handle the new serotonin axons.
Even long-term heavy users of MDMA tend to recover within 12-24 months of abstinence.
But the definition of 'recovery' is limited to clinically significant anxiety and depression.
Up to 2.5 years, ongoing detectable deficits in delayed verbal recall are present in some users.
As well as lowered prolactin response to MDMA, d-fenfluramine, m-CPP (piperazine), or tryptophan challenge.
Since prolactin is considered a reliable marker of overall serotonergic function, it can be concluded that for some former users even 2.5 years of abstinence is not adequate to restore full serotonin function. Longer studies are quite difficult and will likely reveal a prolonged and only partial recovery.
Up to 3 years abstinence, PET scans have revealed ongoing depletions in striatal dopamine - a pathway in which dopamine is preferentially inhibited over other pathways. This is evidence of long-term serotonin re-wiring, or inappropriate transmission.
Despite that damning evidence that, for some users, MDMA is certainly toxic and has life-long effects...
The trend still suggests the brain is capable of handling this remarkably well.
I am reminded of the 'man who took 7,000 tabs of Ecstasy'.
Even 7 years after he quit, he continued to experience severe problems including pain and tightness around his neck and jaw.
He also demonstrated a severe lack of episodic and short-term memory.
But the doctors noted that he was unaware of the memory deficit.
This was one of the most shocking reports I have read.
And it elucidates how members of BL could make such bold claims about the OP being a 'pussy' or how 'comedowns get better'.
It also elucidates how talented the brain is at maintaining function.
Despite an endless cycle of up and down, back and forth head-pressure, anxiety, depersonalization...loss of concentration (including desire to write)...
Despite all of this, I must agree that the brain is highly plastic and capable of handling truly astonishing levels of change.
I continue to be in AWE at just how pliable the mind is.
Yet I refuse to make statements that ignore science.
I will not parade around claiming that the negative effects of the drug are somehow a figment of the mind.
Should we assume that the primates given high doses were also victims to their own undisciplined thought processes?
Should we conclude that the pliability of the brain renders the neurotoxic debate pointless?
I think not.
There are absolutes in this life.
If only we care to learn them.
The 'brain-gut' circuitry gives rise to our most highly evolved emotions, including empathy, guilt, remorse, libido, and an unbridled form of love only humans are heir to. Billions of years of evolution have gifted us with these concepts.
The brain evolved around the intestines, not the other way around.
And MDMA simply takes advantage of this fact.
MDMA does not posses some new 'magic'.
The magic is already in you.
This is a lesson learned by few.
It is difficult to convince people online just how critical the connection between the intestines and the brain really is.
Just convincing them of the basic facts is hard enough.
Asking them to accept that all that is good in life, all that makes life worth living - resides in the connection between these two nervous systems...
This is beyond words.
I hope I have convinced someone today.
MDMA is a drug to be used on special occasions, in careful doses.
Only a disciplined and respectful approach can prevent the detectable and 'toxic' alterations in the brain.
FBC
. That's like 10 pills man, *stay safe*.