Misinformation: Vitamin C disabling or weakening psychedelics?

[DwayneHoover]

Still, I'm really uncertain how much adding a little more ascorbic acid (vit C) in the form of a vitamin C pill (which was definitely the sentiment of the question) to the already low pH HCl environment of the stomach is going to slow the absorption of anything in a way that is reliably noticeable subjectively when it comes to tripping..

Your stomach is not constantly awash in a pool of acid. That would (1) be wasteful, as acids are very energy intensive to produce, and (2) it could be harmful to the stomach without the presence of something to digest. Endogenous acid is released ONLY when food is detected either by the mouth (taste, chewing, salivation) or directly by the stomach. So taking an amphetamine or a 2C or a -drone or anything alse based on phenethylamine ring on an empty stomach with either acidic or basic substances CAN AND DOES affect the drug's pharmacodynamics.

See the medical references I posted. This is not some crazy theory I just dreamt up. It happens enough for pharmacies to put little labels on oral amphetamines about drinking juice with them, OK? Plus I have experienced it, so have many others. It may not seem obvious to you but it is an established medical fact.

 

[Psyke]

And for fuck's sake don't eat anything you've microwaved!

Unless of course you smoke a cigarette which effectively nullifies the toxins

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

You guys should hit up raw fresh-juiced carrot juice or some wheat-grass to combine with 2cs and the like. I don't really do rcs, but I know veg juice and wheat grass are about as alkaline as accessible...my question is though, alkalinity of substance, or alkalinity-forming in the blood.

Being a raw-fodist I've encountered a lot of tangling info about this. The Ph of a food item measured is not the same at all as the effect on the bodies Ph level. Examples lemon, acidic Ph, def alkaline in the body...milk? Basic Ph, super acid-forming in the body though.

The actual effect on the bodies Ph level has to do with the minerals in the food or juice. Sulfur, chlorine, phosphorous and a bunch a other elements are acid forming in the blood when the body starts breaking them down. Whereas magnesium and iron and the like are alkaline-forming in the body.

What do you guys have to say about that? Is it as simple as the Ph level of the food itself outside the body...or would an alkaline body, like my raw-fruit and wheat-grass cnsumin ass be ideal for the processing of the phens mentioned above...?

 

[psood0nym]

See the medical references I posted. This is not some crazy theory I just dreamt up. It happens enough for pharmacies to put little labels on oral amphetamines about drinking juice with them, OK? Plus I have experienced it, so have many others. It may not seem obvious to you but it is an established medical fact.

Yes, I know that's right (about amphetamines at least). I don't think your crazy, Dwayne. It's not your facts that I'm playing off lightly. It's the context in which they're provided in this thread that made me think you were joking. The thread is about vitamin C, and that's what I'm addressing. The MYTH holds that vitamin C (in the amount found in something like a glass of OJ) has some especially potent and UNIQUE property about it that is capable of substantially affecting a trip by itself, even to the point of stopping it. It has no such property. That's why I'm treating it as silly.

It is not special or unique even as an acid as it is a weak acid. Numerous foods and drinks, even other vitamins, are acidic and might affect the absorption of amphetamines (and I guess "anything" with a phenethylamine backbone, though had not heard that). Vitamin C does not satisfy the special status the myth attributes to it even as an acid (at least in the normal amounts the myth assumes it has efficacy at). Even when the stomach is empty there is a basal secretion of gastric acid between meals at around 10 mL per hour. That's acid between 1.0 and 3.0 pH. Adding extra acid to that can affect absorption, yes, it just needs to be a significant amount to make a difference big enough to be felt subjectively in a way that a proper double blind test would likely find significance at. 5% ascorbic acid has a pH of 2.5. With a full glass of water at a normal dose (the kind of amount the myth is concerned with), the pH would be less acidic than that, and so would not really do much to the pH of the stomach. It's simply not of practical significance, so the answer to the simple question of the thread that addresses the assumptions that inform the myth is, "No, it's just a silly myth." I acknowledge that your fact about absorption of amphetamines with high amounts of acidic food or drink is relevant to a tangentially related question like "Might acidic foods and drinks in normal serving sizes affect some psychedelics, especially when taken orally on an empty stomach?"

Any one worried about phenethylamine absorption due to acid can just down a few anti-acid tablets, drink what you please, and pretty much forget about all these concerns. They're nothing special.

 

[DwayneHoover]

^I agree. I specifically stated that vitamin C could affect ONLY phenethylamines, not LSD, which I believe is what this silly myth is referring to. And in fact I stated the OPPOSITE of the myth ("Vitamin C boosts an LSD trip"), by saying that it could affect a phenethylamine in a NEGATIVE manner. Honestly, I have no clue why you've decided to deride my totally factual remarks. I wasn't trying to bolster the stupid myth, rather knock it down. Oh well, whatever, I hope you are enjoying being persnickety. I know, it can be kinda fun sometimes.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

Persnickety...lol that draws quite an image, one hell of an adjective %)

I like it though

 

[kingme]

You guys should hit up raw fresh-juiced carrot juice or some wheat-grass to combine with 2cs and the like. I don't really do rcs, but I know veg juice and wheat grass are about as alkaline as accessible...my question is though, alkalinity of substance, or alkalinity-forming in the blood.

Being a raw-fodist I've encountered a lot of tangling info about this. The Ph of a food item measured is not the same at all as the effect on the bodies Ph level. Examples lemon, acidic Ph, def alkaline in the body...milk? Basic Ph, super acid-forming in the body though.

The actual effect on the bodies Ph level has to do with the minerals in the food or juice. Sulfur, chlorine, phosphorous and a bunch a other elements are acid forming in the blood when the body starts breaking them down. Whereas magnesium and iron and the like are alkaline-forming in the body.

What do you guys have to say about that? Is it as simple as the Ph level of the food itself outside the body...or would an alkaline body, like my raw-fruit and wheat-grass cnsumin ass be ideal for the processing of the phens mentioned above...?

the blood ph is kept well in check by the body itself at very precise intervals, and quite importantly so. it is one of the last parameters to be affected in illness, and is a sign of gravity when it does. so, there are no specific foods that alter it. wether you eat an orange or drink milk, your blood ph will be the same, if your body works normally.
now perhaps i understood your question wrong. i dont really get what you mean by body ph, or acid forming/ alkaline forming. forming where? the body has several liquids it procudes or maintains at various ph, with various ranges and variability. i assure you cerebral fluid and blood ph are kept well in check, while urine ph varies quite a bit, as does stomach ph....
also a food ph doesnt really mean much for what it does in the body. it used to be thought for instance to be a good idea to drink milk if you have stomach ulcers because you fight acidity that way. it works for the moments the liquid is in the stomach yes. but the calcium in it gets absorbed and then goes on to cause increased acid production in the stomach, which causes more pain...

but i think all this discussion is beside the original OPs question which had been very well answered so far cheers!

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/holistic_health/data/thdiet3.html
I don't know the full science that's a chart of the differences. It was explained to me that the body's Ph varies by like. 2, .3, .4 not a strong variation, still 7 or high 6s but from what I understand it varies.

http://biomedx.com/microscopes/rrintro/rr1.html that seems to touch on it as well.

I don't know, I'm not an expert. There's quite a study and practice of balancing the Ph of food intake in the raw food community. And like I said, they're quite specific of how the Ph effect in the body is different than the Ph value of the food externally. I remember something about the ash of a food burned will be acid or alkaline, and this measurement is the same way it effects your body subtly. Lol I don't know though, just think in and referencing an idea I've heard. There's something to the practice though I can certainly felt the difference of a diet dominant in one or the other...

Back to the topic....

 

[plusfourpirate]

Naw...Naw man.. you guys ALL have it WRONG..

the only fact that connects acid and orange juice is that if you drink OJ and have a bad trip, you will think you are a glass of orange juice.

TRUE STORY. my girlfriend's cousin heard about a guy who knew someone who's older brother it happened to in high school.


Glad we got that straight




edit: sry ive had a few bevi's, and am feeling a bit persnickety myself :D

 

[psood0nym]

Oh well, whatever, I hope you are enjoying being persnickety. I know, it can be kinda fun sometimes.

Indeed. I do enjoy the intellectual journey that pursuing and articulating minor points seriously and arguing trivia exhaustively takes me on. That's the edited version of that post, BTW.

EDIT: So as long as we're doing this:

And in fact I stated the OPPOSITE of the myth ("Vitamin C boosts an LSD trip"), by saying that it could affect a phenethylamine in a NEGATIVE manner

You didn't state the opposite of the myth if that's what you were saying. The myth of the thread is that vitamin C affects psychedelics in a negative manner. See here (see, I'm under the impression that we're talking about the thread because we're in it, but that's just me):

One of my friends has this idea that he got from lord knows where that vitamin C somehow will either weaken the psychedelic experience or prevent psychedelics from taking effect at all.

What you stated the opposite of was the larger and better known cultural myth referenced by Ismene, myself, and JackaRoe earlier about VC potentiating an acid trip. And it doesn't matter if you're only arguing it can affect phenethylamines. I'm saying it doesn't affect those either. It's a myth for phenethylamines, too, for all practical purposes. That was what I was saying with the whole thing about the "normal doses" of vitamin C and how they might be expected to affect pH and such... It's always a silly myth. Oh this is fun.

 

[DwayneHoover]

The myth of the thread is that vitamin C affects psychedelics in a negative manner.

Doh! How did I misread that? (and then proceed to merrily ARGUE about it like a toal dumbass! 8) ) I guess reading too fast & brain filling in preconceived idea it would be a repeat of the STRENGTHENING myth. Oops. Sorry!

It's a myth for phenethylamines, too, for all practical purposes.

So you're saying all of the following (yes I am escalating this into "enumerated list" territory :
1 - The pharmacology page about amphetamines [which in fact applies to ALL phenethylamines] I posted a link to is in error?
2 - That the sticker my pharmacist put on a bottle of dextrostat "WARNING: taking with grapefruit or orange juice or other acidic beverages may reduce effectiveness of this medication" was placed there incorrectly?
3 - I am lying or it was just placebo when I attest that a teaspoon of baking soda 10mins before a low dose of methylone (on multiple occasions) had a definite strengthening effect (as if the dose had been increased by 1/3 to 1/2)
4 - That the inverse impact of taking 1-2grams of ascorbic acid or drinking a glass of citrus juice would in fact NOT occur? Even though it's explicitly warned about by pharmacy. (evidence please?)

Dude, the pharma pages on amphets ALL warn about this. This is a medically researched fact. I really doubt the research they're based on is erroneous and/or my pharmacist is incompetent.

Frankly, I think you are wrong... this is just you (as Ismene is wont to do [who I mention reluctantly only because you invoked him]) inflating some "common sense" attitude into a major iron-clad rule, when you have no actual proof, because you get off on being a "debunker" (but I probably shouldn't speculate on that, so nevermind, although you did directly accuse me of being a "bunker" above :D )

(Again, this ONLY applies to phenethylamines [2C chems, mescaline, methylone, mephedrone, etc.])

 

[poopstation]

HOWEVER, acids/bases in the stomach will have *NO* effect on LSD or mushrooms, which do NOT contain a phenethylamine ring.

LSD does indeed have a phenethylamine structure as well as tryptamine. look at the benzene ring that's part of the indole group. then follow the carbons to the right of it until you reach the nitrogen atom on the right-side of the lsd molecule. the nitrogen that has a carbon attaching a methyl group to it. so technically lsd can be looked at as either a substituted tryptamine or substituted phenethylamine. might not have any bearing on this conversation but just sayin

 

[fly-]

i get more visuals with vitamin C, and lowers any anxiety if existent.

 

[DwayneHoover]

the blood ph is kept well in check by the body itself at very precise intervals

Again, the impact of acidic substances consumed with phenethylamines, reducing their absorption and speeding their elimination, is a MEDICALLY RESEARCHED FACT. So I have no idea why people are offering opinions on the concept... it is a proven medical FACT.

The effect on absorption almost certainly has NOTHING to to with blood pH but rather pH in the digestive system. I am not sure why consumed acids would speed elimination of phens, but that's been proven by medical research as well... doesn't seem like digestive system contents should have any effect on blood passing through the kidneys/liver, so that part is a bit of a puzzler to me.

But I have absolutely felt the inverse effect, a teaspoon on baking soda making methylone stronger.

 

[Ismene]

i get more visuals with vitamin C, and lowers any anxiety if existent.

But have you tried this with someone giving you the tablet so you have no idea whether it's vitamin C or anything else? Obviously if you've taken vitamin C once and that trip was somehow memorable it will be fixed in your head that "Vitamin C does this.." and it will do by the placebo effect.

 

[Mitchi]

Someone should tell the ecstacy-people. Alot of people preload with vitamin C, to prevent MDMA neurotoxicity.

 

[Youngin]

Dude i have dealers at shows all the time handing out vitamin c and 5Htp for free along with their MDMA. Ive heard all over the place that vitamin c increases your roll. If there is something that links vitamin c and mdma to neurotoxicity i would like to know immediatly

 

[DwayneHoover]

Someone should tell the ecstacy-people. Alot of people preload with vitamin C, to prevent MDMA neurotoxicity.

The toxicity-blocking studies that were done with animals using vitamin C and MDMA dosed the C ONE HOUR prior to the MDMA, which is plenty of time for it to clear the stomach.

(I actually did different trials with the baking soda Methylone potentiation thing... sooner than 10 minutes after the baking soda and much more than that it and really doesn't work, or not as well. 10 mins prior was a very distinct sweet spot at least for me. It's seems to be a rather narrow window. Warning... a teaspoon of baking soda will also tend to give you the liqui-shits a few hours later, which is why I have up the practice and just use more methylone.)

 

[DwayneHoover]

If there is something that links vitamin c and mdma to neurotoxicity i would like to know immediatly

I think you got it backwards, man. There are medical research studies proving that the human equivalent of 1g of vitamin C (or was it 5?) consumed 1 hour prior to MDMA TOTALLY BLOCKED/PREVENTED THE NEUROTOXICITY. So it's a good practice, but people should be advised to take the C at least an hour before the MDMA to prevent it from having any absorption-blocking impact.

 

[thoughtsUnThought]

Watch out eating baking soda n the regs lol

Regardless of how easily ones bodies Ph can be altered (not trying to re-invoke the argument lol), I have a friend whose relative became debilitatingly ill by using baking soda as an internal home remedy for something or another. I know his Ph was significantly alkaline, to the extent that it was shutting organs down and shit....lol, just don't make a habit of consuming strong bases like sodium bicarbnate