Ayahuasca and methadone?

[Swimmingdancer]

Hi there, I am interested in hearing about any information or experiences anyone can share regarding taking ayahuasca while on methadone maintenance. It would be the traditional brew made using b caapi and p viridis, but info on any other forms of ayahuasca would also be helpful, or if anyone has taken aya while on other opiates. I found a couple of old threads discussing this but they didn't go into much detail. I do know that ayahuasca contains a MAOI, and that methadone is on some lists of contradindications with pharmaceutical MAOIs, but I am not worried about that as my doctor said that, especially with the low dose of methadone that I am on and my tolerance to opiates, (and the fact that ayahuasca is a natural and reversible MAOI or "RIMA"), any risks from that would be extremely low, (unfortunately he didn't know much else about it). I am specifically interested in knowing:

- Is it possible that I may experience precipitated withdrawal symptoms (symptoms that come on faster or stronger) from the methadone due to taking the ayahuasca?
- If I take less methadone than usual should the ayahuasca alleviate or lessen the physical withdrawal symptoms?
- Could the methadone greatly lessen the effects of the ayahuasca?
- Did people who were using aya to help get off opiates just stop taking the opiates beforehand? And what was the result?

I started a somewhat similar thread on another forum, and I did get a helpful reply from a person who used ayahuasca while taking an opiate, but any other input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

PS - Please let me know if I should put this in or start a similar thread in a different area, for example the opiates forum.

 

[Ismene]

The only MAOI I'm familiar with is moclobemide - there is some suggestion that moclo can poteniate the effects of opiates but it would be easy to check this by simply taking half a tablet and seeing what effect it has on you.

I'd suggest that in the first place with any MAOI tho - try taking a low dose apart from the DMT and see how it affects you.

I don't think ayahuasca will have any effect on the opiate withdrawal symptoms and I don't think methadone will decrease the effects of the ayahuasca - I think opiates and DMT work through different mechanisms.

I've never known ayahuasca be used as a treatment for opiate withdrawal, have you heard of this somewhere? I've heard of Ibogaine but not ayahuasca.

I've always taken moclobemide and extracted DMT freebase with 5-10 drops of essential lemon oil to decrease/eliminate the nausea. The trouble with taking the caapi is getting a correct dose of the MAOI plus the added nausea of taking caapi and drinking the sludge. It's far more civilised just taking a 300mg tablet of moclobemide (trade name aurorix - you can order it on the internet quite legally and cheaply) and taking a capsule of DMT freebase mixed in coca-cola.

Is this your first time with oral DMT?

 

[Swimmingdancer]

The only MAOI I'm familiar with is moclobemide - there is some suggestion that moclo can poteniate the effects of opiates but it would be easy to check this by simply taking half a tablet and seeing what effect it has on you.
I'd suggest that in the first place with any MAOI tho - try taking a low dose apart from the DMT and see how it affects you.

I don't really have that option. My plan is to attend an ayahuasca ceremony with a shaman. They are using the traditional plant mixture. I think that one takes a given dose and then several hours later if the effects aren't strong enough there is the option to take a second dose. The shaman is experienced but is not experienced with people doing it while on other drugs. I have taken natural MAOIs in the past without any adverse reactions or noticeable potentation of the methadone. The only thing was that when drinking Kava in large quantities I noticed that I experienced withdrawal symptoms from the methadone much sooner/stronger. But that could have easily been caused by other compounds in the kava. Just wondering if there could be anything like that with aya.

Some people have recommended that I take less methadone that usual with the rationale that the aya will ease withdrawal symptoms (in part because of the supposed potentation effect) and that the methadone might somehow make the DMT not work (I'm not sure why exactly they think this). I am really hesitant to take less as I get really severe withdrawal symptoms rapidly.

I've never known ayahuasca be used as a treatment for opiate withdrawal, have you heard of this somewhere? I've heard of Ibogaine but not ayahuasca.

Yes, it is becoming an increasing common form of alternative addiction treatment with several doctors and treatment centres using it and a lot of people using it with excellent results. It has been used for this purpose as early as the 1950's but it just now getting to be more well-known and accepted. You can easily find out a bunch of info on it by a Google search.

Is this your first time with oral DMT?

Yes. I'd like to try it with the experienced shaman and presumably reliable brew before attempting to try making it on my own. But if this ceremony goes well I may do that in the future, since, as I just found out, all the ingredients can be easily and legally obtained where I live.

 

[Ismene]

I don't really have that option.

I wouldn't rule it out - you'd be surprised how easy it is to get hold of aurorix and extracting DMT from mimosa is as simple as mixing it with some naptha and sodium hydroxide both available from your local b&Q (if you're in the UK)

My plan is to attend an ayahuasca ceremony with a shaman

Is that going to be a ceremony with a bunch of strangers? Might be a little uncomfortable be in such a psychedelic state with strangers around but if it appeals to you it might be worth trying.

think that one takes a given dose and then several hours later if the effects aren't strong enough there is the option to take a second dose.

I've never been successful with the second dose. For me, oral DMT has a tolerance. Not for everyone tho - I think some people can take second doses ok but I usually find you only get the full psychedelic effects once.

Some people have recommended that I take less methadone that usual with the rationale that the aya will ease withdrawal symptoms (in part because of the supposed potentation effect)

Just a bit worried that you could end up throwing up and feeling lousy just from the effects of drinking the ayahuasca - the last thing you need when you're feeling like that is withdrawal symptoms too.

The 5-10 drops of essential lemon oil may help you tho - it deactivates the 5-ht3 nausea receptor in your gut that oral DMT tends to irritate.

Yes, it is becoming an increasing common form of alternative addiction treatment with several doctors and treatment centres using it and a lot of people using it with excellent results.

It's certainly a wonderful psychedelic but I don't know if it' going to be any better at providing some kind of cathartic cure for opiate addiction than LSD or mushrooms etc.

But if this ceremony goes well I may do that in the future, since, as I just found out, all the ingredients can be easily and legally obtained where I live.

It's certainly something to think about - and there's nothing quite like experiencing DMT in the comfort of your own home with your own music and films to enjoy. Good luck.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I wouldn't rule it out - you'd be surprised how easy it is to get hold of aurorix and extracting DMT from mimosa is as simple as mixing it with some naptha and sodium hydroxide both available from your local b&Q (if you're in the UK)

Well I meant I don't really have that option before the upcoming ceremony, which I've already committed to.

Is that going to be a ceremony with a bunch of strangers? Might be a little uncomfortable be in such a psychedelic state with strangers around but if it appeals to you it might be worth trying.

Yeah, I thought about that too. I'm not generally in love with the idea of trying a strong psychedelic for the first time amongst strangers, but I hope that the type of people who are doing this in the first place are the type of people I'd like. My partner is going with me at least. Plus the ceremony while we're most intensely under the influence of the ayahuasca involves just sitting in a dark room without talking while listening to live singing/chanting, so at least it's not like I have to spend my whole night listening to the strangers talk ;-)

The main reason I am doing it this way is because it just happened this way. To make a long story short, what one might call synchronicity, intuition or serendipity brought me to it. It feels like it's meant to be, and until very recently i had no idea I could even get the ingredients and make it on my own, so I'm going to at least have my first aya experience at this ceremony.

Just a bit worried that you could end up throwing up and feeling lousy just from the effects of drinking the ayahuasca - the last thing you need when you're feeling like that is withdrawal symptoms too.

My thoughts exactly.

It's certainly a wonderful psychedelic but I don't know if it' going to be any better at providing some kind of cathartic cure for opiate addiction than LSD or mushrooms etc.

I think other psychedelics can be helpful too, but they say that the reason ayahuasca works especially well is that it also helps with withdrawal symptoms, is a natural anti-depressant, and that supposedly the insights you gain from it are more dramatic and you are able to actually remember them and incorporate them into your life. Often with LSD or mushrooms you might have some deep insight but immediately forget it the next day. Personally I am not taking the aya with the expectation that it will somehow "cure" me of my addiction, in fact I don't really have any expectations, I just want to see what happens and think it would be an interesting experience at least. I am in kind of an unusual situation in that I don't actually consider the methadone to be an "addiction" for me, only a physical dependence. There are definitely some emotions wrapped up in that physical dependence, like fear of withdrawal symptoms and inability to handle the suffering of withdrawal symptoms, but it is very different from addiction behaviour. I would love to be able to get off methadone completely some day, because it is inconvenient and expensive and I don't feel completely free while having to take anything, but not at the expense of making my life miserable. I do have other things I would like to work on about myself, so it would be cool if the aya somehow helped with that, but I don't have a particular expectation.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Bump. Any other input would be extremely helpful Thanks