Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v3; 2010 - 2022

[King Hop Head]

Get Poppy pods as a fallback for weak gear or not scoring

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

over 8mg less is more.. under 8mg more is more,
it is all explained in a pretty old thread already made (a year or 2 before i joined, maybe longer*) jasoncrest (i think) and others had a pretty long debate over it but the final decision on opinions and studies they all cited was what i said.. 8mg and up less is more, 8mg and lower more is more.
So pretty much 8mg is the strongest dose you will get (varying a little person to person)
But with me personally, less is more even under 8mg.
It is a topic that will never be settled i believe.

EDIT: i searched for the thread to link it but i couldn't find it.. i hope it didn't get pruned because of its age.. it had good info in it.

 

[Znegative]

well I definately want to shed my experience on this since I've been experimenting with my suboxone for almost three years.

I recently just got out of a hospital after a month's stay due to a nasty staff infection (and nasty works). The first few days I was switched from my suboxone to IM dilaudid for pain issues, and I ran that train for three days, after which the doctors switched me back to my suboxone, but failed to see what my daily dosage had been as prescribed by my doctor, and instead decided to give me two mg/day. After the first day of being on 2 mg the second time I took my suboxone I felt a noticable increase in stimulation and euphoria, the effects also lasted shorter leading to some uncomfortability and trouble sleeping, but each dose I got seemed pretty powerfull, almost like taking the same dosage without and opiate tolerance (though not quite as grand). Though I enjoyed this, I opted to tell my doctors to put me on 4 mg a day, split into two dosages. There was definately a decrease in effect, though I was still feeling pretty good from my dosages and preferred being comfortable and able to sleep.

Now that I've been out of the hospital I've been taking 6-8 mg as I felt the four was being metabolized too quickly and just not cutting it for my cravings. I feel much more pronounced effects at these dosages then when I was taking the lower ones. I seem to have hit the sweet spot.

That being said I agree with HdoubleODeezy in his above statement as 8 mg and up less is more, 8 mg and lower more is more.

The truth is, I find it hard to believe personally that I will ever find a way to continually get high on my suboxone (high as in how a non tolerant person might experience it i mean)unless I stop taking it for a few days and face withdrawal. I've been on super low dosages of I.V suboxone (.5 mg/day) and cant say that it was any more or less effective than how I'm taking it now, except it allowed me to stick a needle into my arm.

 

[lorne667]

^ Well remember that sublingual has horrible BA. Yes, it is better than oral, but that is not saying much, as oral is less than 10%. Thus, any individual dose of IV bupe is 3-4x stronger per mg than sublingual, unless alcohol is in the mix. This means that .5mg IV is roughly equivalent to about 2mg sublingual, give or take depending on individual factors. Best case scenario, you get around 35% of the dose under the tongue, worst case scenario you can get as low as 18% which is barely more effective than oral dosing{<10%}. Normally it is in between the two, giving a broad range between 18-40%, with the majority probably being on the lower end, thus safe to say at least half of all people are getting less than 30%. Alcohol increases this exponentially; although I don't have the exact number, I know the BA across the board of alcohol is 1.5x that of sublingual w/out alcohol, and specifically the minimum BA w/alcohol is over double then w/out, with the maximum being only slightly higher, implying that part of the BA increase from alcohol is because it helps to compensate for bad technique, with the actual absorption improvement being smaller than the actual BA increase( basically someone who is getting only 18% from a sublingual dose should get 35--40% off of sublingual with alcohol, while someone who is already getting 40% sublingual will still get less than 70% from alcohol, AFAIK

Point is, Iv bupe and sublingual bupe are completely different in dosing, due to the aforementioned potency difference, as well as the fact that IV bupe has a MUCH shorter half life. So keep that in mind when figuring the "less is more" philosophy, and bupe dosing, in general.

 

[laCster]

1mg suboxone + adderall + xanax + weed = best combo ever

 

[lorne667]

You probably didn't have any serious withdrawals because the subuxone is still in your system 3 days later (although a much smaller amount).

Read his post: He say's he INJECTS 200 micrograms of bupe a day. I will tell you from experience, the half-life of IV bupe is much, MUCH shorter than sublingual, especially with micro-gram doses. Assuming I am injecting bupe day-day in sufficient doses, then yes, it still takes 24 hours for dt's to kick in, but no matter how high the dose, I am always in full-blown WD by the 36 hour mark or so. With Microgram doses, I have literally went into full withdrawal 12-16 hours after dosing, though in all fairness the MCG doses weren't really cutting it to begin with.

But just to clarify: IV bupe doesn't really have a long half life; long in relation to IV, but it doesn't compare to sublingual suboxone or oral methadone. So after 3 days, he should have been at the worst of it.

 

[lorne667]

^ LOFL^

That is perfect advice for the kids!!!

 

[lazylazyjoe]

^When I IV'd my dose, I would sometimes feel like I needed a redose as short as 12 hours later. Sublingual I would usually go about 36-48 hours before a redose.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

With 3 and 1/2 years experience with Suboxone and Subutex, I have never been able to understand how so many people on this message board seem to be under the impression that both formulations provide identical effects. This is especially puzzling and in my mind, simply not true when injected, but not limited to just the parental R.O.A The effect is most prevalent when I IV subutex when I am sick or withdrawing. I recently had my subutex prescription stolen and was forced to obtain a supply of suboxone to get me through the month until my next refill. I used Suboxone for about 2 weeks, mainly via the IV route. When I finally got my subutex, I was heavily withdrawing. Now, most anyone with bupe/opiate experience knows that if you are sick and IV a dose of your DOC, you will get much, much higher. From experience, in that situation if suboxone is injected, I get no sort of 'rush', or even high for that matter. But when I injected about 1.5 mgs of subutex after this ordeal, before taking the needle out of my arm, I was jammed. The first thing I felt was a heroin like rush, followed by several hours of nodding off and euphoria. The day before I obtained my tex, I was very sick and IV'd about 2 mgs of suboxone. Well, as usual it took about 30 minutes for the full effects to kick in. I am going to obtain some suboxone this weekend do some blind trials to prove my point. I will wait until I am in moderate w/d and then prepare a 1.5mg shot (my prefered IV dose) of each formulation. I will then blindfold myself and have my friend inject me with one of the shots without me knowing what he is injected. I am very confident that I will be able to tell the difference and know which formulation was injected within 1 minute post injection, then I will post the results in this thread.

Does anybody else agree that Subutex is far superior to suboxone? Not only am I NEVER able to obtain a rush or euphoric feeling from suboxone, but when I have no option other than to maintain with it for a long period of time, my energy levels are notably lower, my depression is worse (possible side effect of Naloxone?). When I do end up obtaining my subutex prescription, I instantly feel like myself again after dosing. So, the following query which I not put forth to you is this; If buprenorphine is buprenorphine is buprenorphine, how do you explain the remarkably stronger and more enjoyable effects I notice when using the bupe only formulation. Please provide some feedback, and I will let you know the results of my 'blind trials' this weekend, when I get a chance to obtain some suboxone tablets for the study.

Now I know that many people will simply say, 'it's all in your head, blah blah', but I digress, and I want to prove my theory...I should mention that it is not just me that is a strong advocate of my theory, but everyone I know that is a buprenorphine junkie would agree. Feedback would be much appreciated. I could never use suboxone to maintain and stay clean, it simply does not do the trick.

My personal theory is that when Suboxone is taken, especially via IV injection, the Naloxone temporarily competes with the receptors for the buprenorphine, causing diminished effects and a much longer onset time, preventing any feelings of a 'rush' from occurring. Now many people I know do not seem to understand how I am able to obtain any sort of rush fromm bupe, but I say, wait until your in moderate to severe w/d and then IV some subutex. You wiill see what I mean. However, if it's Suboxone, you will not get high...

...Let's get to the bottom of this.

Using a micron filter, identical effects should be had.

If you're just cotton filtering, or not filtering at all, then the extra inactive ingredients in Suboxone could be causing the problem.

 

[srs1980]

how long of a wait needed?

persay i wanted to catch a little euphoria action from my bupe, how long would i have to wait to redose.
i take about 2mg a day 1mgx2 and have been on sub for about a year. also how much bupe would you dose with after the wait for the maximum effect. ive always used the bupe for maintenance since i started using it, so i guess you could say im a little bored and want a minor break in the routine.

 

[Fire&Water]

persay i wanted to catch a little euphoria action from my bupe, how long would i have to wait to redose.
i take about 2mg a day 1mgx2 and have been on sub for about a year. also how much bupe would you dose with after the wait for the maximum effect. ive always used the bupe for maintenance since i started using it, so i guess you could say im a little bored and want a minor break in the routine.[/QUOTE

S E A R C H

S-E-A-R-C-H

 

[SubDude]

Using a micron filter, identical effects should be had.

If you're just cotton filtering, or not filtering at all, then the extra inactive ingredients in Suboxone could be causing the problem.

CH... good to see you post and I hope your doing well. I haven't see anything from you in awhile and was told you were injured or ill. I remember your arm problem. Anything else?

 

[sekio]

Bupe is not really recreational, you could try doubling up your dose (2mg at once) but as bupe has somewhat of a ceiling effects it probably won't do you any good.

Read the mega thread for more info.

 

[Pegasus]

Yeah, definitely good to see CH back!

A lot of people who do suboxone do ultra low doses, in order to get norbupe, because it's a full agonist and such. Well norbupe is out competed by bupe itself. bupe out-competes nalaxone(but is the only opioid that does so). So doesn't it stand to reason that nalaxone would out-compete norbupe??? I am not saying that it does or doesn't, but we can't ignore the possibility(or at least I can't, as I have never gotten these magical full agonist effects at low doses, my tolerance notwithstanding)

I'm not completely on the norbupe wagon, but what you're pointing out is exactly the reason that people believe the norbupe theory to be true. Bupe will only compete with a drug if it has to. With high doses of bupe, the opiate receptors in your brain all get occupied by bupe. On lower doses, not all of the receptors will be occupied, and so there can be bupe on some receptors and no bupe on others. Other opioids can still bind to the open receptors. Personally, I think that regardless of whether it is bupe or norbupe giving effects, the fact is that lower doses work better for most people. Remember that bupe was a regular analgesic before Suboxone came out, and it was dosed in increments of 0.1 - 0.2mg, not 2-24mg.

 

[sixpartseven]

It doesn't change anything. A couple years ago when "less-is-more" was a lesser known concept around here, we explained it as meaning that a lower dose is ideal because it generally produces enough of an effect at lower doses to cover most large habits, but the main point was that at higher doses, there isn't less of an effect, but there are more uncomfortable side effects. Of course low doses won't always be enough for everyone, but it has been shown time and again that more often than not, people are prescribed more Suboxone than they actually need. I think Suboxone is underestimated, and I am certain that, at least on BL,I have never heard anyone claim there was decreased mu activity at higher doses.

As far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure most of you that were around when I was would agree, this article is saying what we already know.

 

[regulator1]

back in the early suboxone days of mine i was allowed 32mg (4pills) and ate 4 of them a day for over a year. I think the comfy dose is anything below 16mg I myself cannot tell the difference in 16mg vs 32mg. Hell people even use it in the single mg's and get by fine, High doses seemed to bring on headaches for me

 

[sixpartseven]

^ hence the reason we would say less is better, if possible. If you can take less and get by, then that is better because you can avoid the side effects that come with higher doses. Less is more because more is more uncomfortable, not because there is decreased mu activity resulting in decreased ability to eliminate withdrawal symptoms, but because a whole host of side effects bbegin to show up, making it almost counter-productive (taking a drug to feel better only to have it make you feel bad)

 

[paper planes]

always well said sixpartseven cuz i also think that with higher dosing the side effects arent worth it...just seems like with all the pros and cons most people make out better below 4 mgs

 

[Tommyboy]

back in the early suboxone days of mine i was allowed 32mg (4pills) and ate 4 of them a day for over a year. I think the comfy dose is anything below 16mg I myself cannot tell the difference in 16mg vs 32mg. Hell people even use it in the single mg's and get by fine, High doses seemed to bring on headaches for me

Same here. I was prescribed the same thing, but could get by fine on 8 or 16mgs, even if I had been taking the 32mgs for weeks straight. This was 5 years ago, before all this information and experiences were posted.

I also agree that the difference between 16 and 32mgs is minimal, and if you have been taking the doses regularly, it's hard to tell. However, it is a lot easier to cut down a lot from the higher dose, than the lower doses. What I mean is, it was pretty easy going down from 32 mgs to like 12mgs, but once I got down to below 4 mgs, it was tough. This is why when people start a thread with "help, I am running out of subs, was at 24mgs, and only have 8 8mg pills to last 6 days" I always tell them to drop the dose right away for the first 2 days, and then ride out the remaining 4 days at 8mgs, and they should be fine.
I mean, that's pretty much my theory with tapering off of any drug. Drop the dose as much as possible right off the bat, and then taper from there. If you can knock 10mgs off right away, for example, then that can save you over a month if you were planning on tapering 2mgs a week.

I think the main benefit of a dose of 8-12mgs is that it helps with cravings a lot more than a 4mgs or less dose. So I guess I buy the whole "above 8mgs less is more, below 8mgs, more is less." It depends on what you are using it for though. For detox, I think lower doses should be used if you are doing it on your own. I think in hospital detox settings, some like to give you a nice amount so you don't want to leave right away.

However, this can be bad if they give you say 12-8-4 mgs for 3 days, and then discharge you 1 or 2 days later, because you will get hit with withdrawals right when you get home. I have seen this happen to people, and they end up detoxing at home after getting out of detox.

 

[Pegasus]

It doesn't change anything. A couple years ago when "less-is-more" was a lesser known concept around here, we explained it as meaning that a lower dose is ideal because it generally produces enough of an effect at lower doses to cover most large habits, but the main point was that at higher doses, there isn't less of an effect, but there are more uncomfortable side effects. Of course low doses won't always be enough for everyone, but it has been shown time and again that more often than not, people are prescribed more Suboxone than they actually need. I think Suboxone is underestimated, and I am certain that, at least on BL,I have never heard anyone claim there was decreased mu activity at higher doses.

As far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure most of you that were around when I was would agree, this article is saying what we already know.

Yep, great summary right here 6/7.