Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v3; 2010 - 2022

[lightitup]

Well, I just figured I would update a little bit since I can't sleep anyway. At about 110 hours since last dose, so 4.5 days. This shit is pretty brutal. I have only used pot and benzos so far though for relief.

Honestly, I see a lot of people really badmouth it and say "why did I get on suboxone if it is this bad of w/d?!" I could understand it for a pretty small habit, but as a dopehead holy shit this feels like a cakewalk almost. I've sweated bullets, crapped constantly, had a headache for 5 days, muscle tension, RLS (even in my arms and ass and stuff, it hurts) from this kick, but at least its manageable. I remember going to the hospital multiple times in a day for w/d from oxy or dope. I would feel how sick I feel now almost daily while being a dopehead, but shit maybe I was just broke. I knew I was gonna have to come down, I think suboxone really helped in the long run because I don't know if I could have done it the other way...

Anyway, keepin' on truckin'. I only got 2 hours of sleep, so I'm gonna try to catch a little bit more. Sorry if the post is hard to understand, my mind feels a little scrambled. Good luck to everyone who is on this road.

 

[muie]

I've only been on methadone when really sick but a buddy got ahold of some pure bupe powder when he was sick from h, and he even smoked it (on foil)......dont know what to tell you. It worked for him, he made the taper but it only lasted a week or two.

 

[paper planes]

speaking to the less is more theory.. wouldnt the case be when you got down to a lower dose you tolerance was also lower so thats why it feels like more

 

[dhopeless]

Subutex and Suboxone: Buprenorphine is not always buprenorphine

With 3 and 1/2 years experience with Suboxone and Subutex, I have never been able to understand how so many people on this message board seem to be under the impression that both formulations provide identical effects. This is especially puzzling and in my mind, simply not true when injected, but not limited to just the parental R.O.A The effect is most prevalent when I IV subutex when I am sick or withdrawing. I recently had my subutex prescription stolen and was forced to obtain a supply of suboxone to get me through the month until my next refill. I used Suboxone for about 2 weeks, mainly via the IV route. When I finally got my subutex, I was heavily withdrawing. Now, most anyone with bupe/opiate experience knows that if you are sick and IV a dose of your DOC, you will get much, much higher. From experience, in that situation if suboxone is injected, I get no sort of 'rush', or even high for that matter. But when I injected about 1.5 mgs of subutex after this ordeal, before taking the needle out of my arm, I was jammed. The first thing I felt was a heroin like rush, followed by several hours of nodding off and euphoria. The day before I obtained my tex, I was very sick and IV'd about 2 mgs of suboxone. Well, as usual it took about 30 minutes for the full effects to kick in. I am going to obtain some suboxone this weekend do some blind trials to prove my point. I will wait until I am in moderate w/d and then prepare a 1.5mg shot (my prefered IV dose) of each formulation. I will then blindfold myself and have my friend inject me with one of the shots without me knowing what he is injected. I am very confident that I will be able to tell the difference and know which formulation was injected within 1 minute post injection, then I will post the results in this thread.

Does anybody else agree that Subutex is far superior to suboxone? Not only am I NEVER able to obtain a rush or euphoric feeling from suboxone, but when I have no option other than to maintain with it for a long period of time, my energy levels are notably lower, my depression is worse (possible side effect of Naloxone?). When I do end up obtaining my subutex prescription, I instantly feel like myself again after dosing. So, the following query which I not put forth to you is this; If buprenorphine is buprenorphine is buprenorphine, how do you explain the remarkably stronger and more enjoyable effects I notice when using the bupe only formulation. Please provide some feedback, and I will let you know the results of my 'blind trials' this weekend, when I get a chance to obtain some suboxone tablets for the study.

Now I know that many people will simply say, 'it's all in your head, blah blah', but I digress, and I want to prove my theory...I should mention that it is not just me that is a strong advocate of my theory, but everyone I know that is a buprenorphine junkie would agree. Feedback would be much appreciated. I could never use suboxone to maintain and stay clean, it simply does not do the trick.

My personal theory is that when Suboxone is taken, especially via IV injection, the Naloxone temporarily competes with the receptors for the buprenorphine, causing diminished effects and a much longer onset time, preventing any feelings of a 'rush' from occurring. Now many people I know do not seem to understand how I am able to obtain any sort of rush fromm bupe, but I say, wait until your in moderate to severe w/d and then IV some subutex. You wiill see what I mean. However, if it's Suboxone, you will not get high...

...Let's get to the bottom of this.

 

[lorne667]

Well one interesting thing to note is that in blind studies, people whom I believe they referred to as "former opiate addicts" or something similar, we're injected with either placebo, buprenorphine, and I believe morphine and heroin. They we're then asked to identify the substance they we're getting injected with. Surprisingly, almost everyone who got a bupe injection identified the substance as "heroin". They we're non addicted, but experienced users supposedly, so there is a good chance they just weren't as experienced as they let on and misidentified a VERY potent bupe injection for what they thought heroin should be like. Though it is also likely that it was giving some kind of rush to these subjects, to make them think heroin. I've never had a rush from bupe, but it stands to reason someone with a low tolerance could get a rush simply from blood levels rising so quickly.

I wish I had some subutex to try out. I mean, nalaxone s PRETTY MUCH inactive, but it couldn't hurt to not have ANY nalaxone...

(BTW, IIRC, you can destroy most of what little bit of nalaxone is in suboxone by heating it, as it's degrading point is lower than buprenorphine's, though you must be willing to more than likely lose some bupe. Probably not worth it to most people(myself included) but is worth a try for someone like you with a script, just too see if destroying the nalaxone alters the effect. Active or not, nalaxone is still in your body, where it is bound to have some effect...)

 

[dhopeless]

That doesn't suprise me at all, because right after I shot that tex after 2 weeks of suboxone, I looked at my friend and said, "Wow, I may as well have shot dope!" Now the 'rush' I can achieve from subutex is nowhere near as intense as a heroin rush, but it is strong enough that I would definatly classify is as a rush...and isn't the reason we get rushes because our receptors are very quickly being filled up? So, since I really only get a bupe rush when I'm in w/d, it makes perfect sense. If I'm already held off the bupe and inject it, I will feel increased effects, but since most the receptors are already mostly full, a rushing sensation would not be present. As far as naloxone is concerned, it is the only other active ingredient and MUST be responsible for the lack of euphoria/rush.

 

[dhopeless]

speaking to the less is more theory.. wouldnt the case be when you got down to a lower dose you tolerance was also lower so thats why it feels like more

Yes and no...The trick with bupe is to keep your tolerance low because for instance a 1mg iv dose of bupe will get you higher than say a 4mg iv dose due to the ceiling effect. However, if your tolerance is too high you can't simply do less and expect to feel more. You need to gradually decrease your tolerance and as you go along you will find that you are feeling the bupe more and more. I think for maintance the ideal dose if 1mg 3x daily (for me anyway). Another plus is that if you achieve this, than you will be using much less sub and still feeling better. One theory I have for this is if you are taking smaller doses, when you are ready for your next dose you will have much less leftover bupe in your system, so there are more receptors ready to be activated.

 

[sekio]

This has been covered over and over again.

Naloxone has a lower affinity than buprenorphine and is out-competed. It has no pharmacological effect in Suboxone. Sorry...

 

[lorne667]

^^^ Well I know that, and I'm sure most of us know that.Believe me, I IV suboxone when I don't have my DOC(s), and it certainly works! But don't forget Sekio, studies have indicated that buprenorphine WITHOUT nalaxone(AKA: Subutex) provides more euphoria and increased "like" responses when compared to suboxone(bupe with nalaxone). Now I don't know these studies, and they may very well be a fluke. But I also haven't tried subutex. I just think that it is worth experimenting to see if one can discern a difference( as dhopeless apparently plans on doing) between the two,nalaxone may not be able to grab onto receptors, but it is still there.

BTW dhopeless, there are 2 reasons why you get a rush, to the extent of my knowledge. The intense, "true" rush you get from drugs like heroin is because it is able to penetrate the blood brain barrier so well, as to basically overwhelm receptors within seconds, as you said. Other drugs with a weaker, more subjective "rush" don't cross the BBB as easily, yet can still provide somewhat of a rush based simply on the fact that blood levels rise so quickly.

 

[lorne667]

One more thing:

A lot of people who do suboxone do ultra low doses, in order to get norbupe, because it's a full agonist and such. Well norbupe is out competed by bupe itself. bupe out-competes nalaxone(but is the only opioid that does so). So doesn't it stand to reason that nalaxone would out-compete norbupe??? I am not saying that it does or doesn't, but we can't ignore the possibility(or at least I can't, as I have never gotten these magical full agonist effects at low doses, my tolerance notwithstanding)

Look, most of us know that nalaxone doesn't do what it is supposed to do, else we couldn't IV it. And I honestly doubt there is a difference, as all experience and facts indicate that suboxone and subutex are pharmacologically(?) identical. And even if nalaxone does have a small effect, it's half-life is only 60-90 minutes, so it would wear off. It doesn't mean that for those 60-90 minutes it isn't have some adverse effects!Again, I haven't done subutex, so I can't say, but I think it is worth looking into if at all possible

 

[SWIM81]

Hey, I just have to say that if you are struggling addiction and withdrawal symptoms from opiates i.e. oxy, hydro, talk to your Dr and see if he can prescribe you a TENS unit. The currents create endorphins which in turn helps fight the symptoms of withdrawal and ease the pain that caused you to have to be on opiates in the first place. These drugs are extremely dangerous to an addicted person and anything that can help the next person I definitely want to share.

 

[lorne667]

... a guy with swim in his name just worries me...

 

[dhopeless]

This has been covered over and over again.

Naloxone has a lower affinity than buprenorphine and is out-competed. It has no pharmacological effect in Suboxone. Sorry...

Yes this been covered over and over again, but I firmly believe you're all wrong. Like lorne said, people get higher without naloxone! I know, I have been pretty much strictly using this drug for a few years now, and it boggles my mind that someone would not be able to notice the difference. It makes me think that everyone is saying "in your face Reckitt! Your naloxone didn't work!" Well, in essence your right about THAT, because you can defiantly shoot a suboxone, but there's no point because you don't get high like with tex. Not only that but I have given subutex to over a dozen people that had only used suboxone prior to then, and they all called back and said "wow, what a world of difference!". SO please don't shut this down...It Has not been covered.

 

[dopiate]

Yes this been covered over and over again, but I firmly believe you're all wrong. Like lorne said, people get higher without naloxone! I know, I have been pretty much strictly using this drug for a few years now, and it boggles my mind that someone would not be able to notice the difference. It makes me think that everyone is saying "in your face Reckitt! Your naloxone didn't work!" Well, in essence your right about THAT, because you can defiantly shoot a suboxone, but there's no point because you don't get high like with tex. Not only that but I have given subutex to over a dozen people that had only used suboxone prior to then, and they all called back and said "wow, what a world of difference!". SO please don't shut this down...It Has not been covered.

I just think if you did some truly blind trials (i.e. you have no indication of which formulation you injected). You would find without a shadow of a doubt that the difference is miniscule. Unfortunately you would have to do this quite a few times to get a decent data set, i mean you do have a 50% chance of guessing right.

 

[dopiate]

I'm curious to know what the smallest amount of bupe someone uses on a daily basis. I'm currently at 0.2mg per day injected.

As far as withdrawal, this past weekend i ran out and was without for 3 full days. First time in 4 years of me being on bupe. I took 120mg of loperamide over the three days and i can say it wasn't really that bad, first day i felt pretty bad but the second day i felt decent and the third day i also felt ok.

 

[lazylazyjoe]

Lowest I ever got was 250mcg/day. And that was Suboxone. Never IV'd subutex. Stopping these was easiest kick ever for me. Took tramadol for a week and walked right off with next to no discomfort.
I remember Captain.Heroin was down to like 125mcg/day before I took my "vacation" about 18 months ago. Did he/you ever finish your taper?

 

[lorne667]

Yes this been covered over and over again, but I firmly believe you're all wrong. Like lorne said, people get higher without naloxone! I know, I have been pretty much strictly using this drug for a few years now, and it boggles my mind that someone would not be able to notice the difference. It makes me think that everyone is saying "in your face Reckitt! Your naloxone didn't work!" Well, in essence your right about THAT, because you can defiantly shoot a suboxone, but there's no point because you don't get high like with tex. Not only that but I have given subutex to over a dozen people that had only used suboxone prior to then, and they all called back and said "wow, what a world of difference!". SO please don't shut this down...It Has not been covered.

Well to be fair, I didn't say/mean that people just "get higher" as a general rule; but I know for a fact that one study said that nalaxone definantly lowered subjective euphoria. BUT that was just one study. As dopiate said, there is a 50/50% chance you are right on any given try; could be just a fluke, or better yet, results skewed in favor of making nalaxone seem like it actually has a fucking purpose.

Until recently, I thought that nalaxone may very well outcompete norbupe for the 60-90 minutes it is in the body(via IV, of course) but I am starting to think norbupe is just a myth that doesn't have effects anyway rendering it moot!!! Basically, we'll never understand buprenorphine fully, but I will nonetheless try...

(For the record, I know norbupe isn't a "myth", but I do think it may be overhyped... OR MAYBE i'M JUST A JUNKIE ASSHOLE WITH TOO MUCH TOLERANCE!!!

 

[dcraver877]

I'm curious to know what the smallest amount of bupe someone uses on a daily basis. I'm currently at 0.2mg per day injected.

As far as withdrawal, this past weekend i ran out and was without for 3 full days. First time in 4 years of me being on bupe. I took 120mg of loperamide over the three days and i can say it wasn't really that bad, first day i felt pretty bad but the second day i felt decent and the third day i also felt ok.

You probably didn't have any serious withdrawals because the subuxone is still in your system 3 days later (although a much smaller amount).

 

[K88ABY]

I have researched the use of bupe a LOT over the last year or so. (Subutex in UK) I began, like many.. smoking my opiate, and successfully held off withdrawals by using minimal dose of subs. Now though, my habit is 10x worse and I iv my H and have done for well over a year. I'm desperate to get back onto bupe, I actually have a cupboard full of these so called miracle pills. But one day last week the inevitable happened and I couldn't score (I always felt safe knowing I had these to fall back on, as they worked so well before) So I took an 8 (sublinguarly) .. nothing... hour later, took another 8, my rattle just got worse. Now I'm terrified that I'm never going to get back onto them. I work 3 jobs and rattling just isnt an option. What shall I do... Shall I just take lots more bupe, or shall I try to reduce my H tolerance (I have done this before, halved my habit) then try to get on them? I dont want to be injecting them either :/

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

^dcraver has a good point. Buprenorphine has a wonderfully long half life.