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Psychedelic Society

I would say that this civilization we live in is a psychedelic society already; made manifest through the totality of Existence.

Psychedelics only grant you more capability in the interaction. So a society which accepted or encouraged the use of psychedelic drugs could be radically different than our currently perceived reality. However, I would say that it would be impossible to speculate, based on infinity.
 
chiefopiate said:
Psychedelic Society? I don't think it'd work in any civilized parts of the world. The only psychedelic societies that work are the native tribes in remote parts of the world. Shamans guide and bring wisdom to the tribe through psychedelic means.
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But did shamans really 'guide and bring wisdom' or did they use psychedelics to manipulate the tribe and encourage/enforce their own privileged position and the beliefs and power structures of the tribe? I don't know but humans being humans that would seem more likely to me.

The Charles Manson thing is kind of similar - psychedelics can be so mind blowing that they can be used by people to manipulate others.

They also seem to attract people who maybe don't have much direction or rewarding things in their lives who can find a lot of enjoyment and meaning from the incredible experiences psychedelics can provide. As I said above there seems to be a lot of directionless lost sort of people that congregate around the psytrance scene
 
acidclouds said:
But did shamans really 'guide and bring wisdom' or did they use psychedelics to manipulate the tribe and encourage/enforce their own privileged position and the beliefs and power structures of the tribe? I don't know but humans being humans that would seem more likely to me.

The Charles Manson thing is kind of similar - psychedelics can be so mind blowing that they can be used by people to manipulate others.

They also seem to attract people who maybe don't have much direction or rewarding things in their lives who can find a lot of enjoyment and meaning from the incredible experiences psychedelics can provide. As I said above there seems to be a lot of directionless lost sort of people that congregate around the psytrance scene
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The Mayans, Aztecs, and many current tribes that live in the Jungles of the Amazon or Africa are all proof of psychedelic societies with shamans guiding them.
 
Yes... but I'm not sure how that post adds to what we were saying. I know that shamans in those societies 'guide' people with psychedelics but I'm saying what is the true nature of that guidance. Is the psychedelic experience manipulated to support the beliefs and power structures of the tribe? I would imagine it is
 
acidclouds said:
Is the psychedelic experience manipulated to support the beliefs and power structures of the tribe? I would imagine it is
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Quite possibly.

Or, perhaps, the radical revaluation that psychedelics inspired gave them a new belief system and power structure that better equipped them to survive. I think that, generally, traditions and cultural practices (like shamanism) tend to adapt to health and prosperity.
 
acidclouds said:
But did shamans really 'guide and bring wisdom' or did they use psychedelics to manipulate the tribe and encourage/enforce their own privileged position and the beliefs and power structures of the tribe? I don't know but humans being humans that would seem more likely to me.

The Charles Manson thing is kind of similar - psychedelics can be so mind blowing that they can be used by people to manipulate others.

They also seem to attract people who maybe don't have much direction or rewarding things in their lives who can find a lot of enjoyment and meaning from the incredible experiences psychedelics can provide. As I said above there seems to be a lot of directionless lost sort of people that congregate around the psytrance scene
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Can you please try and make some sort of sense that everyone else can ken?....
 
acidclouds said:
I'm not sure what that means... what did you not understand?
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I don't understand what point you are trying to get across by saying you imagine some sort of archaic hierarchy in which the psychedelic plant using shaman dictates the tribe in a twisted, sinister kinda way. I can read I just don't get it.
 
Well looking at human history powerful people and institutions have often used spirituality and religion to manipulate and control the masses. Psychedelics have the power to produce incredible and often 'spiritual' experiences.

If the shaman in a tribe controlled the consumption of psychedelics and directed the people to interpret and experience the drugs' effects in a certain way this could, and I suspect often was, be used to reinforce the status quo of the tribe - the heirachy, the beliefs and so on - rather than being used for completely altruistic purposes to improve the lives and spiritual well being of the tribes' people.

This is like, for example, the 'divine right of kings' where European kings used the christian bible to justify their power as coming from God and therefore making their authority unquestionable.

My overarching point is that psychedelics and the individuals that distribute them and encourage their use in a hypothetical 'psychedelic society' would not necessarily be used for 'good' but could be used as a form of control. The psychedelic experience is so powerful that if someone introduces you to them then you can be manipulated into thinking that their bullshit opinions and beliefs on other things are correct. From what I understand, this is what happened with Charles Manson's 'family'. He found young lost vulnerable people and used LSD as part of his control over them.
 
acidclouds said:
Well looking at human history powerful people and institutions have often used spirituality and religion to manipulate and control the masses. Psychedelics have the power to produce incredible and often 'spiritual' experiences.
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I don't think psychedelics can really be used in that manner. In fact 'you could exercise some sort of institutional control via the psychedelic medium' surely hurts anyone that has ever partaken in a truly heart warming, honest, life affirming psychedelic experience. Even to compare the great people of the Amazon to some sort of judo christian cult is blasphemous.
 
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acidclouds said:
Well looking at human history powerful people and institutions have often used spirituality and religion to manipulate and control the masses. Psychedelics have the power to produce incredible and often 'spiritual' experiences.

If the shaman in a tribe controlled the consumption of psychedelics and directed the people to interpret and experience the drugs' effects in a certain way this could, and I suspect often was, be used to reinforce the status quo of the tribe - the heirachy, the beliefs and so on - rather than being used for completely altruistic purposes to improve the lives and spiritual well being of the tribes' people.
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That would make an awesome play, or book!
 
juniorcat said:
I don't think psychedelics can really be used in that manner. In fact 'you could exercise some sort of institutional control via the psychedelic medium' surely hurts anyone that has ever partaken in a truly heart warming, honest, life affirming psychedelic experience. Even to compare the great people of the Amazon to some sort of judo christian cult is blasphemous.
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I wasn't talking about a 'judo christian cult' I was talking about all the major powers of Europe for over 1000 years using religion to justify their power and privilege. It sounds like you have had some great spiritual psychedelic experiences, as have I. But I dont see why you think that they couldn't be used to manipulate people in the same way other spiritual and religious beliefs have been and still are.

I dont know much about the Amazon tribes - it sounds like you probably know more than I do - but it also seems like you're putting them on a pedestal. All societies have power structures. All powerful people within societies have various means to maintain and enforce their authority.
 
acidclouds said:
I wasn't talking about a 'judo christian cult' I was talking about all the major powers of Europe for over 1000 years using religion to justify their power and privilege. It sounds like you have had some great spiritual psychedelic experiences, as have I. But I dont see why you think that they couldn't be used to manipulate people in the same way other spiritual and religious beliefs have been and still are.

I dont know much about the Amazon tribes - it sounds like you probably know more than I do - but it also seems like you're putting them on a pedestal. All societies have power structures. All powerful people within societies have various means to maintain and enforce their authority.
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Like I said psychedelics are a much truer experience than meeting a bunch of tongue waggling, blindfolded neanderthal extremists with no self knowledge.
 
acidclouds said:
I wasn't talking about a 'judo christian cult' I was talking about all the major powers of Europe for over 1000 years using religion to justify their power and privilege. It sounds like you have had some great spiritual psychedelic experiences, as have I. But I dont see why you think that they couldn't be used to manipulate people in the same way other spiritual and religious beliefs have been and still are.

I dont know much about the Amazon tribes - it sounds like you probably know more than I do - but it also seems like you're putting them on a pedestal. All societies have power structures. All powerful people within societies have various means to maintain and enforce their authority.
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aVbJhg23Ao

Anyhows I was mostly talking about your comparison of institutionalized experience with that of the nether whirls ( sounds much prettier dont it). But thinking of it I do recall an interview with one of Charlie Mansons chikies and he basically reenacted christs crucifixion while they were tripping on LSD or something. So I suppose he manipulated someone to his will. A very rare case and then again it could be media hate hype against the use of psychedelics.
 
juniorcat said:
Like I said psychedelics are a much truer experience than meeting a bunch of tongue waggling, blindfolded neanderthal extremists with no self knowledge.
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How are psychedelics a true experience by default? The way to get someone out of a bad trip is the prime example of how easy people can be manipulated when under the influence of psychedelics. Now imagine a shaman in an ancient tribe, leading a ceremony, and somone he feels is a competitor for his spot of power is joining in. How easy would it be for him to direct that competitor into a bad trip, or direct other people joining the ceremony into a stance against his competitor? Comparing Charlie Manson to a shaman one-on-one is one thing; ranting about 'neanderthal extremists' and denying even the slightest similarity is just ignorance.
 
I would say that most psychedelic experiences point toward the absolute truth of self, even if it isn't recognized. Those who aren't well-read can't easily see it in everything; and so they can misinterpret what Existence is showing them, themselves. However, this truth of self is so radically different for each individual that until it is recognized, one cannot see it. Only when you can hear the wheels can you interpret what is going on in reality, and utilize that to make yourself happy. So, unless this society were completely awake, I do not think that everyone would benefit; only those in the know.
 
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