[Debate] What is ego-death?

[max_freakout]

I've had a few feelings of panic at the peak of a heavy trip and it crosses your mind that "I've taken too much" but all you do is lay down and keep calm and after a while those feelings decrease.

You clearly indicate here ^ that you havent ever really tripped hard enough to experience these kinds of extreme psychedelic overloads that lead to ego death, it is all about the intensity of the experience. So the most hardcore thing you ever experienced in a trip was merely "a few feelings of panic", ie you've never experienced full-blown psychotic disintegration during a trip.

Regardless of the number of times youve tripped you are still merely an amateur, completely inexperienced in the psychedelic deep-end, phenomena such as schizoid psychosis, mortal fear, extreme panic-attack and ego death. You have never really left your psychedelic comfort-zone, and so it is no suprise that you are sceptical about ego death. You have a long way still to go down the rabbit-hole before you will understand what ego death is all about. During a psychedelic trip it is possible to clearly perceive one's own death or cessation of personal existence, it is the most profound and devastating experience that the human mind can undergo.

I wouldn't put that down to any mysterious ego-death, I'd put it more down to not being able to handle your high.

Here you are mistaking the cause for the effect, and creating a false dichotomy, the "not being able to handle the trip" is a feature of an extreme psychedelic trip-out, it is an overwhelmingly powerful experience.

 

[max_freakout]

I can certainly see that someone who wasn't experienced with tripping might hit the peak of a trip start to think "I've taken too much" and panic so hard he starts to think he's "dying".

You contradict yourself, here ^ you acknowledge that people could experience ego death, in principle (although you say you havent experienced it yourself). But elsewhere you seem to imply that ego death doesnt happen. Which is it?

 

[Ismene]

You clearly indicate here ^ that you havent ever really tripped hard enough to experience these kinds of extreme psychedelic overloads that lead to ego death, .

No max, this is the problem. You're assuming that we all handle feelings of panic like you do - working yourself up into the feeling that you're "dying". I don't. I've tripped every bit as hard as you only I don't panic. You see the difference?

you've never experienced full-blown psychotic disintegration during a trip.

I certainly havn't no. And I'm sure I've taken far heavier doses than you.

You contradict yourself, here ^ you acknowledge that people could experience ego death, in principle (although you say you havent experienced it yourself)

That's what I've been saying for the last 10 posts max. A born again christian might look at the sky and think "My god, I just felt the power of God, I know he exists now" whereas I wouldn't. Some people are just wired that way. I'm not denying that you feel you've had an ego death - just like I wouldn't deny that Tom Cruise thinks he's met a Thetan or whatever scientologists believe in. I'm just saying there's no way I'm ever going to experience that.

People can believe anything they want - that doesn't mean I have to believe it too. You feel me?

 

[max_freakout]

Yeah but it's become a dick-sizing thing hasn't it

Dick sizing is what you are doing when you make claims such as:

"im immune to ego death"
"only an inexperienced tripper would freak out, im immune to freaking out"
"only weak people would lose control and mentally die during a trip"
etc etc

Are you humble enough to admit that a psychedelic trip could completely overpower your mind and drive you insane?

You havn't really tripped unless you say you "died" have you.

This is a misunderstanding, you can trip without experiencing ego death. Ego death is one particular phenomenon that is encountered in the intense psychedelic state of consciousness

Talking about dying in your trip reports reminds of something Jimi Hendrix said about rock stars dying young - "Once you are dead you are made for life".

Hendrix was a psychedelic initiate, many of his song lyrics are about ego death:

"you've got me blowing, blowing my mind
is it tomorrow or just the end of time?" - Purple Haze

 

[Ismene]

Are you humble enough to admit that a psychedelic trip could completely overpower your mind and drive you insane?

What are you talking about max? Are you saying that if you deliberately take an enormous overdose you'll lose track of who you are? You could do that if you drank 50 shots of vodka. Is that what you call an ego-death?

I think Purple Haze was actually from a science fiction book Hendrix had read where a mysterious purple haze from aliens affected people.

 

[max_freakout]

I'm really against equating psychedelics with man-made religions. I don't see any similarity whatsoever. All man-made religions are debilitating, hideous brainwashing bullshit. They only survive because they get foisted on kids when they're too young to stand up and say "Wait a minute, that's complete shit".

Psychedelics are a completely differen thing to hideous man-made religions. There's just you and the drug. No God needed.

You havent addressed the claim that the religious stories are allegorical descriptions of psychedelic experiences, in particular the experience of ego death and rebirth/ressurection.

Budha, Jesus, Moses and every other religious character, from every religion, are depicted as undergoing intense, transformative trippy experiences. That is what religion essentially is, a powerful psychedelic trip.

 

[Ismene]

Come off it max - you can make bullshit allegories with anything. You ever seen that halo around Jesus head in pictures? Ever notice that looks a bit like a mushroom cap? I could give you a thousand bullshit allegories that are utterly pointless and meaningless.

There's a film of John Lennon talking to a homeless guy who was sleeping in his garden and the homeless guy goes

"You know when you said "Boy you're gonna carry that weight for a long time?" it all fits with my life".

And Lennon replies:

"How could I be thinking of you when I wrote it? Anything fits man. If you're tripping off on some trip ANYTHING FITS".

 

[max_freakout]

What are you talking about max? Are you saying that if you deliberately take an enormous overdose you'll lose track of who you are? You could do that if you drank 50 shots of vodka. Is that what you call an ego-death?

Alcohol does not typically cause anything like ego death or tripping, if you drink a lot of vodka you lose consciousness, if you take a lot of acid you do not lose consciousness.

The experience of being drunk on alcohol is entirely unlike the experience of psychedelic tripping, it is easy to tell the difference between them.

 

[Ismene]

How much acid are we talking? What dose of acid makes you suffer complete "psychotic disintegration" as you put it?

Do you ever find acid fun? Or is it just about undergoing raging insanity and feeling like you're dying?

 

[max_freakout]

I've taken far heavier doses than you.

What were you saying about dick-sizing?

Dosage is not the only factor that determines the outcome of a psychedelic trip session (although it is very important). Per Leary, the crucial factors in tripping are dosage, set and setting.

 

[pmoseman]

What are you talking about max? Are you saying that if you deliberately take an enormous overdose you'll lose track of who you are? You could do that if you drank 50 shots of vodka. Is that what you call an ego-death?

I think Purple Haze was actually from a science fiction book Hendrix had read where a mysterious purple haze from aliens affected people.

Yep. Purple haze was a memory erasing sun and he was under the ocean, it was a dream he had from the book.

For what it's worth my most powerful experience came after I had been tripping, not during. It was difficult to say how long it had been, a day, a week.

People had a proper understanding of this and were discussing it long before the psychedelic revolution. The events were classified and official names given for various experiences. Even had lineages of pupil and master.

There have been studies and I have no doubt psychedelics increase the rate of these events. One researcher, rather recently, was inducing these "seeing God" moments using mushrooms a blind fold and intense "music".

There was definitely an auditory element in mine and the older theories included triggers, a sudden unexpected event, like a hearing a bell tower, that can trigger them. So I have no doubt certain music can trigger it.

I recommend Bach, he speaks to my soul. If you can manage to get in a trance the right kind of trigger might trigger it. You have to clear away self manifested fallacies first, they will block you from having the experience.

 

[max_freakout]

How much acid are we talking? What dose of acid makes you suffer complete "psychotic disintegration" as you put it?

You never really know the dosage of acid in physical terms, so it's pointless to talk about physical doses. The important issue is the degree of intensity of the experience, if your trip gets intense enough, it will overpower you. If you never trip that hard, you will never leave your comfort zone and will never experience ego death

The degree of intensity of a trip is determined by dosage+set+setting.

Do you ever find acid fun? Or is it just about undergoing raging insanity and feeling like you're dying?

If i have fun that's a bonus, but that isnt why i do it. I trip in order to explore my mind and to connect to the transcendent source and get deep philosophical insights. It is not a particularly 'fun' experience, it is often deeply uncomfortable and profoundly moving.

The hardcore control-loss experiences are where the *real* learning happens.

 

[pmoseman]

I was tripping in a dark environment and it wasn't until I came outside and saw the tree was a blob with the sun beyond it that I realized this, and I was taken aback. This may have been the trigger, but it took a week of unfolding my thoughts before the final dance.

 

[Ismene]

What were you saying about dick-sizing?

Not dick-sizing max, but you're saying I'm an "amateur" who hasn't tripped as hard you. I've tripped plenty hard enough to experience every facet of the psychedelic experience.

I'm still wondering what kind of dose you suffered complete psychotic disintegration on tho.

The hardcore control-loss experiences are where the *real* learning happens.

I disagree max - I think that's just old religious puritan bullshit "work before pleasure". I think you can get every bit as much value out of simply laughing your ass off and having a great time out in nature. You don't have to think you're dead and run round wearing nothing but your mothers panties before crouching down and eating your own faeces.

 

[Solipsis]

You have to split up religious tradition and institutionalisation from principles of moral values and existing in harmony with the world. The former indeed can be source of a lot of suffering, but the latter does not implicitly harm anybody since it basically stops with people practicing meditation and seeking other forms of devoted attention, which by the way tolerates ideas of concepts of god without anything supernatural about it.

Also, one moment you consider if ego-death is much too vague a definition and the next moment you wonder why so "few" people have experience with it. That does not make sense, if it were a term unreasonably open to interpretation you would think it would cause extremely many people to match it to their experiences.
I don't think it is that few after all, to some extent it is generally associated with high levels of psychedelia and dissociation, not something idiosyncratic.

If you check the Shroomery and their definitions for the 5 levels of shroom trips they describe,

Level 4
Strong hallucinations, i.e. objects morphing into other objects. Destruction or multiple splitting of the ego. (Things start talking to you, or you find that you are feeling contradictory things simultaneously). Some loss of reality. Time becomes meaningless. Out of body experiences and e.s.p. type phenomena. Blending of the senses.

Level 5
Total loss of visual connection with reality. The senses cease to function in the normal way. Total loss of ego. Merging with space, other objects, or the universe. The loss of reality becomes so severe that it defies explanation. The earlier levels are relatively easy to explain in terms of measureable changes in perception and thought patterns. This level is different in that the actual universe within which things are normally perceived, ceases to exist! Satori enlightenment (and other such labels).

do you find any agreement in general descriptions and examples of effects on those one or two upper levels Ismene? Do you presume that with every psychedelic there is just a ceiling effect and everything is just making stuff up about reality and sense of self seeming to fall apart?

I personally think that it is pretty much logical that since psychedelia distorts and warps your senses in the broadest way of the word... if you keep going far enough those senses stop being able to 'compute'.

It seems a very strange idea to me that you would accept that psychedelics are capable of many things regarding mental effects, but once you get to the extreme end you stop believing certain subjective experiences are possible?
How does that make any sense???

I honestly cannot even think of states of consciousness I deem impossible to have on psychedelics (since I have not had them myself), maybe there is a limit to the level of complexity and conscious rational attention it can be given but actually you would be amazed at the kind of savant shit people's minds are capable of, insanely elaborate detailed models (like star maps).
But ego-death is not even complex, it is highly unusual in a sense to have consciousness/awareness but nothing else... but it is not really elaborate.

Another thing, I personally explicitly tried to reject making experiencing ego-death or ego-loss anything elitist... please don't complain about dick-sizing one moment and trying to convince us that surely you have done larger doses of psychedelics the next.
It can be a bit of a travesty that some people try to force getting ego-death experiences while at the same time not being ready or apparently not being able to properly arrange a good set and setting and first getting decent experience and understanding of what not to do with psychedelics. I get that it makes experiences like these controversial but it has nothing to do with the fact that they are possible.

And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, rookie logical fallacy: the fact that you have not had it does not prove it is not possible. And while you are one person you are basically calling many other people who have claimed to have experienced something in this category a liar.

 

[Ismene]

does not implicitly harm anybody since it basically stops with people practicing meditation and seeking other forms of devoted attention

What I'm dismissing is the supposed link between psychedelics and man-made religions. That if you "meditate" you know what tripping is like. That simply isn't true. But then again as I've often said in this thread people experiernce things in different ways so if you're a keen buddhist perhaps you'll notice feelings while you're tripping that remind you of meditation. I'm not saying it's "either - or" I'm saying that we arn't all going to interpret an experience in the same way.

Total loss of visual connection with reality. The senses cease to function in the normal way. Total loss of ego

I'm not sure what this means to be honest - "loss of visual connection with reality"? Does that mean you go blind? You see a pink elephant walking round the room? Obviously "total loss of ego" is meaningless to me. And "satori enlightenment" - what does that mean really? I don't believe in Buddhism or that any of them achieve "enlightenment" and I certainly don't believe Buddhism is anything like tripping.

Do you presume that with every psychedelic there is just a ceiling effect

I think it's more to do with how different people interpret an experience. As I've said - some people have an illness, get well again and are convinced that they felt God, that it was God that made them better and they become born again believers in God for the rest of the their lives. Some people get ill and get better and don't need God. Same experience - different interpretation.

Another thing, I personally explicitly tried to reject making experiencing ego-death or ego-loss anything elitist

You might not have done but max did - he said if you havn't experienced ego-death you're an amateur who doesn't know about tripping and who needs to go furthur down the rabbit hole etc.

please don't complain about dick-sizing one moment and trying to convince us that surely you have done larger doses of psychedelics the next.

But it needed saying - I've taken just as large doses as any ego-death claim there's ever been. So we can definately forget the idea that you're an "amateur" if you've never had an ego-death. And it also helps people who maybe havn't tripped heavily to realise that if they do take a heavier dose they arn't going to experience all this "death" bullshit.

And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

It is sometimes tho. We didn't find any WMD in Iraq for example.

And while you are one person you are basically calling many other people who have claimed to have experienced something in this category a liar.

I'm not calling them all liars. I certainly believe there's lots of novice trippers who feel embarrassed to talk about tripping unless they say they've "died and come back again". I do think there's a cult of the "ego-death" as being the "master heavy trippers" and that anyone who hasn't had one is, like max-freakout says, an "amateur".

But I also believe there are some genuine ego-death claims - like there are some genuine born again christians or people who genuinly believe they've met aliens. Different people interpret an experience in different ways. We arn't all the same and we arn't all going to experience heavy tripping as an "ego-death".

 

[max_freakout]

Total loss of visual connection with reality. The senses cease to function in the normal way. Total loss of ego

I'm not sure what this means to be honest - "loss of visual connection with reality"? Does that mean you go blind? You see a pink elephant walking round the room? Obviously "total loss of ego" is meaningless to me. And "satori enlightenment" - what does that mean really? I don't believe in Buddhism or that any of them achieve "enlightenment" and I certainly don't believe Buddhism is anything like tripping.

Your scepticism seems to be entirely based on your own sheer lack of experience, if you had experienced the level 5 "loss of sensory contact with reality" then you would know what it means, and how it compares to going blind.

You are talking about experiences that you have no personal acquaintance with, so it is not suprising that you dont understand what it is all about.

You might not have done but max did - he said if you havn't experienced ego-death you're an amateur who doesn't know about tripping and who needs to go furthur down the rabbit hole etc.

I youve never orgasmed, then you dont know what orgasm is like. Similarly if you've never experienced mystical death and rebirth in a trip, then you dont know what that is like either. You have clearly indicated that you have never had this kind of experience, and therefore you are in no position to comment on what the experience is like. Your position (claiming that people do not experience ego death) is like a child denying that there could be any such thing as an orgasm, simply because he is not yet developed enough to experience orgasm himself. It is a very naive position to take which would be immediately shattered if you would ever experience ego death for yourself.

But it needed saying - I've taken just as large doses as any ego-death claim there's ever been.

Dosage is just one factor that contributes to the outcome of a trip session, you also need to take set and setting into consideration. If you spend your trips wandering around in nature distracting yourself with external distractions like smelling flowers and looking at patterns then it is very unlikely you would ever get to the point of ego death.

So we can definately forget the idea that you're an "amateur" if you've never had an ego-death.

You are an amateur in this particular sense, - there is a whole area of psychedelic trip experiences that you know nothing about.

And it also helps people who maybe havn't tripped heavily to realise that if they do take a heavier dose they arn't going to experience all this "death" bullshit.

You seem very fixated on the idea that a high dose of psychedelics ought to guarantee an ego death experience. That is definitely not the case, there are other factors involved besides dosage, as Leary recognised.

 

[swilow]

I wonder if Ismene has smoked a huge dose of salvia? That usually does it

Several problems arise in this discussion. We may not have a good definition of the ego- to me, it is an apparent constancy related to repeated sensory input being interpreted the same way. Mess with the input and the sense of self we derive from this constancy vanishes.

Secondly, Ismene- I agree with your perspective that the link between psychedelics and religion is tenuous at best, and- for me at least- quite unpalatable and unappealing. You cannot take a drug and actually believe that you are gaining objective knowledge about the universe- all you are actually gaining is a unique perspective on the limited sensory world that is always available to you. Actually claiming that all religions are psychedelic is a huge insult to the profundity of a psychedelic trip. Why people want to constantly link these two things is beyond me.

But Ismene- just because you have not experienced ego-death, does not mean that it doesn't exist! That is the primary logical fallacy that has informed your opinion.

 

[max_freakout]

Secondly, Ismene- I agree with your perspective that the link between psychedelics and religion is tenuous at best, and- for me at least- quite unpalatable and unappealing. You cannot take a drug and actually believe that you are gaining objective knowledge about the universe

The link between psychedelics and religion is primarily because every religious story can be intepreted as a description of a psychedelic experience, in particular an ego death experience.

For example Jesus consumes the holy bread and wine at the last supper, and he then starts to have bad trip, where he gets seized by the Roman army, put on trial and executed, then transcendently ressurected.

Similarly Buddha eats the magical rice given to him by Sujata under the bodhi tree, then he starts to have a bad trip where he is attacked by Mara's army of demons, then he is transcendently enlightened.

These are 2 separate stories at the heart of two major religions which both share the same core feature - magical food is consumed which leads straight into an experience of hellish death followed by glorious rebirth/ressurection. These stories can be easily and obviously translated as allegories for drug-induced ego death.

 

[swilow]

To a hammer, everything is a nail.

Many historians simply believe that Jesus was a guy that was killed.