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the official 10-11 NBA thread ver. LIKE A BOSH

^And of course his incredible kung-fu skills. ;)

I think the sky-hook is the most dominant single move ever concocted, Dirk's one legged fadaway is a close second. I don't know enough about the game of Dr. J, Magic, Bird, Wilt etc. though so I could be wrong obviously...

Michael Jordan has the best basketball brain/body combination ever, he didn't have just one move, and his shooting ability was far better than Kobe's. The only reason he doesn't have 8 rings is because he decided to play baseball. Fact. Kobe will never surpass him no matter how many rings he wins. Michael Jordan was better than Kobe at every stage of his career, and he made the game better overall.
Kobe, IMO, started a TERRIBLE trend in basketball by skipping college ball to go play in the NBA right out of highschool. I think it's such a disservice to the game to give all these youngsters the incentive to stay in college for as short a time as possible, or skip it altogether. You can't tell me that the quality of the game has improved because of this. I don't care how athletically talented a person might be, you can always improve. So many kids these days will never reach their full potential because they aren't humble and they think they are ready for the big time right away. I think college plays a big role in developing someone's intangibles because of the pride people used to take in defending their school's honor. Kids battled it out and put their hearts on the line all throughout the season and post-season, just to bring glory to their schools. Notice how all the big draft prospects during this recent March madness got beat by all these underdogs? I don't think that's an accident at all. All the big draft prospects were worried about themselves, and they didn't give a shit about their school or their team. Then they're just going to wallow in obscurity in the pros after being drafted in the 1st round, and earning enough money to make them think that they're "the man" and have no need to build up their game or mind, get traded around by the hawks, bucks, blazers, jazz, bobcats, maybe do a stint in Boston or San Antonio once they're over the hill, and then retire without having done shit except maybe be a good role player after their 7th season.
All these kids who think college is a waste of time, they could learn so much just for being humble enough to learn from a crotchety old coach who's seen it all, and fighting to make a good name for their SCHOOL, not for themselves. Just think of the glorious battles between Georgetown and North Carolina in the 80's, which then carried over into the bitter rivalry between Chicago and New York in the 90's.
I miss 90's basketball....
Does anyone have any websites that have good records for stats from the 80's, 90's, and 2000's? I'd love to see some comparisons. I'm pretty convinced, though, that the 80's-late 90's was the Golden Age of basketball, and Kobe ruined it by being good enough to be a bench-warmer right out of highschool.
 
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I'm not saying Wade is better than any person I named there. He just needs to start being mentioned there.
Eh, I'm on the other side of the Kobe/Jordan argument. I believe Kobe simply had to contend with Tim Duncan. If Jordan had to go against Mr. Fundamental in his prime, he might not have those six rings. Jordan didn't have another player of the same caliber. He had some good ones, but noone really on his plateau. Kobe has to contend with Tim Duncan in his prime, winning four rings, and even a year going against Shaq in his prime. Not to mention the talent of Dwayne Wade and Lebron who are ruining any chance he has for another, oh and that damn three headed beast Boston had for a while.

Kobe has 5 rings against better competition. That's why I chose Kobe.
 
Mark Jackson to the Warriors... LOL. At least now I won't have to mute ESPN/ABC games.

What will be interesting to see in game 4 is whether Dallas plays Stevenson more or starts trapping Wade more aggressively because he is torching J-Kidd.



@sportsguy33 Really impressive Miami win, they couldn't get a call all night. Wade put on a clinic on how to lead a team, just wouldn't let them cave.

@sportsguy33 It's going to be so awkward when Dwyane Wade wins the Finals MVP.


If Miami wins, I can't wait to see the look on Bronzy's face when Wade gets the FMVP again.

Prob something like this:

2rcs591.gif
 
Codones said:
Eh, I'm on the other side of the Kobe/Jordan argument.
Click to expand...

I wasn't even aware there was an argument.....??
That post was quite surprising to me 8o

And Karl Malone is the second leading scorer in NBA history, with more MVP wins than Kobe ;).
Michael beat: Reggie Miller, Magic Johnson, Clyde Drexler, Isiah Thomas, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkely, Karl Malone, Mutumbo, Shaq, Wilkins, Rodman, Olajuwan, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, John Stockton, Alonzo Morning, Muggsy Bogues, the monsters from Space Jam who had the skills of all those guys etc. etc.

Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team for the majority of his finals wins. I mean...since when was there a debate? Casual discussion yeah, but not like...a serious debate...
The guy put up Wilt Chamberlain-like numbers at a time when Larry Bird and Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas were all in there prime....
He scored 63 points against the Celtics while still recovering from a broken foot in the playoffs...
The man completed his degree program at North Carolina while simultaneously becoming the first player in NBA history to rack up 100 blocks and 200 steals in a single season and setting a record for highest points scored by a player in a game in the playoffs...
I mean...there's no comparison between the two, head to toe, other than they're both 6'6"

I have nothing better to do so I'm going to dig a little deeper:
Career Stats regular season
FG% Jordan: .495 Kobe: .454
RB/G Jordan: 6.2 Kobe: 5.3
APG: Jordan: 5.3 Kobe: 4.7
SPG: Jordan: 2.35 Kobe: 1.5
BPG: Jordan: 0.8 Kobe: 0.6
PPG: Jordan: 30.1 Kobe: 25.3
FT%: Jordan: .835 Kobe: .837 (wow Kobe won a category!)
3pt%: Jordan: .330 Kobe: .339 (hey now, this is looking like a trend!) ;)

And here's the clinching argument IMO:

Jordans career PPG in the playoffs: 33.4
Kobe's career PPG in the playoffs: 25.4

Jordan scores a solid 3.3 more points a game in the playoffs while Kobe scores 0.1 more points.

Also recall that most recent 7-game series against Boston. Don't you remember Kobe's volume shooting? he forced himself to have high scoring games because he was shooting so crappy that series. He was basically an effort-based role-player in that series. He didn't take it over like he was expected, like Jordan always did.

Also, up to this point, they've both played 15 full seasons and Michael has 32,292 points and Kobe has 27,868.
 
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L O V E L I F E said:
I *LOVE* Wade.

LOVE him.

But mentioning him ahead of Kobe is simply PREPOSTEROUS.

Kobe's a better shooter, a better scorer, a better defender, and was the driving/co-driving force behind FIVE championships.

He also plays through pain and despite injuries at a high level - Wade, on the other hand, misses chunks of games regularly.

And Kobe is still only 32 years old.

If the Lakers sign or trade for just ONE more excellent player, Kobe could very well get to 7 or 8 rings.

Wade won't even get to that number, even PLAYING THE BULK OF HIS CAREER WITH LeBRON.

Hate on Kobe for whatever reasons you'd like - but he RELISHES the idea of being the man, and winning titles WITHOUT another superstar (a la MJ, NOT a la LeBron or Wade).

You Kobe-haters can't have it both ways.

It not fair to laugh at Gasol's monumental melt-down in this year's play-offs without conceding that Kobe does NOT have a top-notch dependable second STUD - even MJ had superstar Scottie Pippen for every single one of his titles.

Until and unless Kobe passes MJ with 6 titles as The Man, MJ's still the GOAT.

But Kobe is CLEARLY second.

Wade's great, too.

But so are Bird, Magic, Hakeem and a few others.

Point being:

Fuck LeBron.
Click to expand...


First off, I am a huge Laker fan and a huge Kobe fan as well... but Kobe is not the best player in the league anymore, sorry. LeBron has been since 2008-2009. Kobe is not even the best SG in the league anymore, Dwyane Wade is, and has been for a few years now. Don't know what games you're watching but Wade is the superior defender and is a more efficient scorer.

Oh and you're seriously insane if you think Kobe is the 2nd greatest behind MJ. NOT EVEN CLOSE. One can even argue that he's not even a top 10 player of all time as of right now (I have him ranked #9). You need to stop with the rings argument. Kobe won two rings as the man, Michael won all 6. It's not even a fair comparison. Even if Bryant wins a few more rings, he still won't be anywhere near Jordan's level. Kobe is a better 3 point and free throw shooter. That's it.


MJ's accolades alone blow Kobe's out of the water.

You also have to take in account their overall impact on the floor as well as their efficiency on both ends. Michael was by far the superior defender, and it's not even close. MJ shot 50% for his career, Kobe is a career 45% shooter (which is still pretty amazing considering MJ was 10 times the athlete and had all the physical tools that Kobe never had, and considering Kobe's terrible shot selection at times).


Look at MJs playoff numbers, his career numbers, it's not even really very close, particular in scoring and shooting percentage. Better clutch shooter too, not even debatable.

Take a look at MJs top years statistically, they are much better than Kobe's.

Best seasons statistically for MJ, a few are absolutely incredible:
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
86-87 CHI 82 82 40.0 .482 .182 .857 2.0 3.2 5.2 4.6 2.88 1.52 3.32 2.90 37.1
87-88 CHI 82 82 40.4 .535 .132 .841 1.7 3.8 5.5 5.9 3.16 1.60 3.07 3.30 35.0
88-89 CHI 81 81 40.2 .538 .276 .850 1.8 6.2 8.0 8.0 2.89 .80 3.58 3.00 32.5
89-90 CHI 82 82 39.0 .526 .376 .848 1.7 5.1 6.9 6.3 2.77 .66 3.01 2.90 33.6
90-91 CHI 82 82 37.0 .539 .312 .851 1.4 4.6 6.0 5.5 2.72 1.01 2.46 2.80 31.5
91-92 CHI 80 80 38.8 .519 .270 .832 1.1 5.3 6.4 6.1 2.28 .94 2.50 2.50 30.1
92-93 CHI 78 78 39.3 .495 .352 .837 1.7 5.0 6.7 5.5 2.83 .78 2.65 2.40 32.6


And Kobe, he has had some great years:
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
02-03 LAL 82 82 41.5 0.451 0.383 0.843 1.3 5.6 6.9 5.9 2.2 0.8 3.51 2.66 30.0
03-04 LAL 65 64 37.6 0.438 0.327 0.852 1.6 3.9 5.5 5.1 1.7 0.4 2.63 2.71 24.0
04-05 LAL 66 66 40.7 0.433 0.339 0.816 1.4 4.5 5.9 6.0 1.3 0.8 4.09 2.64 27.6
05-06 LAL 80 80 41.0 0.450 0.347 0.850 0.9 4.4 5.3 4.5 1.8 0.4 3.13 2.91 35.4
06-07 LAL 77 77 40.8 0.463 0.344 0.868 1.0 4.7 5.7 5.4 1.4 0.5 3.31 2.66 31.6
07-08 LAL 82 82 38.9 0.459 0.361 0.840 1.1 5.2 6.3 5.4 1.8 0.5 3.13 2.77 28.3


Look up the "shots missed/shots made differential" statistic.

Regular season - Michael Jordan +137.5, Kobe Bryant -1,237



MJ dominated every Finals (expect in 96 vs the Sonics in which he shot 41% ), while Kobe only had two great performances (2002 and 2009) and AVERAGES 41% shooting in ALL his Finals.

Kobe is still amazing in the playoffs, but doesn't really have the memorable FINALS that Jordan had.

Prime Jordan (28-30)

1991 Finals: 31.2 pts, 6.6 reb, 11.4 ast, 2.8 stls, 1.4 blks (55.8% FG)
1992 Finals: 35.8 pts, 4.8 reb, 6.5 ast, 3.5 stls (52.6% FG)
1993 Finals: 41.0 pts, 8.5 reb, 6.3 ast, 2.3 stls (51% FG)

Those are just mind boggling numbers.


Finally, you have to look at the defenses in the 90's vs the defenses today. The game was so much more physical on the perimeter and in general. The rules today make it easier for guards to penetrate and finish around the rim (def 3 seconds). You can't even breathe on LeBron, Wade, etc.

Take a look at these videos of Jordan going against elite defenses in the 90's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ&feature=player_embedded

Kobe would struggle against those type of defenses.


Codones said:
I'm not saying Wade is better than any person I named there. He just needs to start being mentioned there.
Eh, I'm on the other side of the Kobe/Jordan argument. I believe Kobe simply had to contend with Tim Duncan. If Jordan had to go against Mr. Fundamental in his prime, he might not have those six rings. Jordan didn't have another player of the same caliber. He had some good ones, but noone really on his plateau. Kobe has to contend with Tim Duncan in his prime, winning four rings, and even a year going against Shaq in his prime. Not to mention the talent of Dwayne Wade and Lebron who are ruining any chance he has for another, oh and that damn three headed beast Boston had for a while.

Kobe has 5 rings against better competition. That's why I chose Kobe.
Click to expand...
oh my....

Honestly did you watch ball in the 90s? Not trying to be a dick btw, just asking.
 
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^Thank you.
And watching ball in the 90's is something you can't fake. I mean actually watching ball in the 90's is different from hearing about it from sportscasters.

I remember the 7 game series between the Bulls and Pacers in the Eastern Conference finals. That was a heart wrenching series. I tore up all my Indiana pacer cards after a dagger 3 by Reggie Miller in game 5 or 6. My parents were pissed at me... I was an excitable young boy :)

I remember the year he came back after playing baseball. That was the coolest feeling ever.

He would literally have 8 rings if he didn't carer about honoring his father's wishes to see him play baseball....

I'm standing by my argument earlier about how College is an essential part of any player's career, instilling things of unknowable value.

You think Dwane Wade's stint at Marquette, bringing them to prominence for the fist time in over a decade, and winning their only Conference championship, has anything to do with the fact that he has noticeably better leadership qualities and intangibles than Lebron?
 
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I would say all time, jordan is clearly better, but kobe for me is easil in the top 4, he has done things in his career that jordan didnt do or even wilt for that matter (who didnt have a 3 in the key rule)

even his performance in last years playoffs was amazing. people forget he played the entire playoffs that year with a broken finger on his shooting hand AND a knee that required arthroscopic surgery. let me say that again arthroscopic surgery and he played like it was nothing bone on bone.

another widely disregarded issue is how that very accomplishment affected his play this year. the guy went through huge strectches without even practicing. does anyone really think that was 100%. trainers even said he was never at one point this year at 100% this year because of him playing through that knee injury in the finals last year. the medical staff have been quoted saying treatments will be continued to be made to improve the quality of his knee for next season but there will still be some irreversable damage.

the man has more heart than any player in the history of the game including mj, that I do not doubt

not to mention the fact that for LAs last two rings their starting center played virtually no minutes, gasol/ariza were his top #2 guys. you cant argue with 5 rings, and really the shaq arguments died when kobe won two more without him and shaq only got one because wade handed it to him (as if kobes 32 ppg in the finals with shaq didnt matter). you cant argue with being able to outscore an entire team by yourself through 3 quarters (mavs-who went to the finals that year)

as far as now though its clear that kobe is on his way out (accelerated by his knee) and that wade is on his way up. but wade will NEVER be better than kobe was in his prime NEVER
 
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Kobe is just a whiny bitch. MJ played serious games with fevers, as has Wade, Dirk is injured, Wade has a bum shoulder, Bosh has one eye, etc etc...

Anybody playing in the Finals is beat up. Only glory seekers like Kobe make it public. The only guy who isn't beat up right now is LeBron, but that is only because he is a robot.
 
pleeeeeaaaaaaasssssee 3,4 were not talking about little sprains and eye pokes here were talking about joint and cartlige degeneration and broken bones. wade misses huge chunks of games every seasons because he has runny nose ro whatever else. meanwhile lebron complains about some phantom elbow injury that never existed.
 
I just have to rant a little bit sorry guys.
reasons why wade will never be considered better than what kobe was (aside from the hardware)



  • number of career 50 point games - kobe bryant(25 times) MJ(25 times) wade(3 times)


  • only two players not named wilt have ever scored 40 points in a game consecutively for 9 games in a row - kobe Bryant, MJ


  • only two players in nba history have ever scored 50 points or more for FOUR consecutive games in a row - Kobe Bryant, Wilt (no not even MJ)


  • only one player has ever outscored a team by himself through three quarters of play since the shot clock era - Kobe Bryant (no not even wilt or MJ)


  • only 3 players in nba history have ever scored 60 or more points over 4 times - Kobe Bryant(5), MJ(5), wilt(32) (wade/lebron both have 0 games of this magnitude)
 
L O V E L I F E said:
I *LOVE* Wade.

LOVE him.

But mentioning him ahead of Kobe is simply PREPOSTEROUS.

Kobe's a better shooter, a better scorer, a better defender, and was the driving/co-driving force behind FIVE championships.

He also plays through pain and despite injuries at a high level - Wade, on the other hand, misses chunks of games regularly.

And Kobe is still only 32 years old.

If the Lakers sign or trade for just ONE more excellent player, Kobe could very well get to 7 or 8 rings.

Wade won't even get to that number, even PLAYING THE BULK OF HIS CAREER WITH LeBRON.

Hate on Kobe for whatever reasons you'd like - but he RELISHES the idea of being the man, and winning titles WITHOUT another superstar (a la MJ, NOT a la LeBron or Wade).

You Kobe-haters can't have it both ways.

It not fair to laugh at Gasol's monumental melt-down in this year's play-offs without conceding that Kobe does NOT have a top-notch dependable second STUD - even MJ had superstar Scottie Pippen for every single one of his titles.

Until and unless Kobe passes MJ with 6 titles as The Man, MJ's still the GOAT.

But Kobe is CLEARLY second.

Wade's great, too.

But so are Bird, Magic, Hakeem and a few others.

Point being:

Fuck LeBron.
Click to expand...

Basically you just hate LeBron because he likely will wipe out Kobe's last few chances to win another championship. And btw, Kobe didnt win any until they signed Shaq so dont even argue about Wade needing LeBron (or vice versa). How did Kobe fare after Shaq left and Rudy T was coaching the Lakers? I'm sure he relished every minute of that 34-48 season. D Wade has 1 ring with a past-his-prime Shaq and is looking good to get a 2nd with LBJ. And who knows, maybe more.

And the only thing CLEAR about Kobe being 2nd best all-time is that it is CLEARLY debatable. Kobe may not even be the 2nd best Laker ever! (And this is coming from a Celtics fan just so you know.)
 
The only point you bring up that I am taking issue with is the "Kobe is soooo much tougher than the rest of the league" point. Everybody is beat up during the Finals, probably by the post-season. Some decide to make it public, while others keep it to themselves.

Wade is beat the fuck up. He never misses games because of fevers, in fact, every game I remember him being sick for he absolutely killed it, MJ style. I'm not saying that Wade is better than Kobe, just that Kobe had more visible injuries and he played them up.

Look at Dirk. His finger is just a fucked up as Kobe's was (given, not on the shooting hand) and he didn't show us any nasty pictures and doesn't gripe about it during pre and post-game interviews.
 
Wade has migraines, not fevers. I mean, maybe he has fevers too, but a lot of his missed games are during migraines.

I've never experienced migraines. Some people tell me they're unimaginably bad. There was even some talk in Miami about not dressing in white for the playoffs because the brightness might exacerbate Wade's pain.

It doesn't help that the very plastic (or very pussy (pussic? pussaic? pussine?)) people that live in this city duck for cover when Wade jumps into the stands. Get out of the arena with that shit.
 
I get about 1 migraine a year, and yes, the pain is unimaginably awful. You feel like pounding your head in with a hammer just to get rid of the pain. Eventually, the headache is so bad that you become nauseous and throw up. Fuck, I hate the thought of them. It is a totally legit excuse for missing anything. Dude is a warrior for playing through the tail end of one.

From what I understand, cluster headaches are even worse. While somebody who has a migraine might feel like beating their head in with a hammer, people with cluster headaches actually do. Fuck.
 
Miami just has too much talent they are shooting 29 percent from the field and the game is still tied. Dallas will be lucky to take the series back to miami.
 
wade is killing it. lebron looks average in comparison. props.

dallas, fuck if you could just get some damn rebounds and turn it over less, you would be winning this series

EDIT: omg how many open looks can they miss? the end of the fourth is killing me

EDIT: DIRK WITH THE LAYUP! just have to play solid D now

EDIT: l-o-l gave up a dunk, hopefully terry can make these free throws

yeeeee, rare mental error from wade in the clutch. 2-2 next game at home. come on mavs
 
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Crimson, Have you not learned bottom talk trash before the game is over? Both of these teams can make huge comebacks. Every person keeps thinking that Dallas is simply getting lucky. Well, we shut Lebron down completely. We clamped down and played sick defense in the 4th. And we had clutch shooting. Thus wasn't miami shooting poorly. This was Dallas playing great defense.
 
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