Kratom Withdrawal

[aspiringchemist]

No problem.
It's not a put down. My pain is very real and I do what I have to do to provide and live. I'll say that I do yoga daily and am an avid hiker, both for years. Just trying to say I do everything I can to be healthy.
I think the reality for me is that kratom is not potent enough to kill the pain, without dosing excessively high. I have a high opioid tolerance, even reinitiating use medicinally with a provider after a decade clean. I'm not sure why this is, but my guess is due to past years of abuse, and more recent Rx medicinal use causing receptor down regulation or something similar to this.

so ya I suppose I abused it, i certainly increased my dose to continue receiving therapeutic benefit to the point that it made me more ill. I don't think it's as black and white as "abused" or "not abused", everyone's physiolocal makeup is different, metabolism, plus a variety psychosocial factors. Once I came to terms with this I made the decision to stop.
I feel that if I was provided the appropriate medication I would not be experiencing such instability in terms of chronic pain management and side effects.
You just can't eat that much powder...

 

[Fresco]

^^^^ that is an honest and great post!!

 

[Fresco]

Kratom is in a weird kind of half-addiction (its like an opiate habit, and yet at the same time it isnt because you can't really OD on it and you can pretty much quit if you can cope with the 4-day withdrawal symptoms (which are peanuts compared to the stronger opiates)

 

[aspiringchemist]

Thanks!
I again apologize for the extended posts, there's just so much to say to paint the real picture.

I'm about 20 hours post last opioid dose and beginning to experience some symptoms, but it is rather light for now; subject to change I'm sure, and I've been using various other meds to ease withdrawal symptoms.

I think that my hydrocodone taper provided my body an adjustment period, allowing detox from all the other alkaloids present in kratom, while maintaining slight mu agonism to stave off the actual opioid withdrawal symptoms. I experienced severe GI issues and SSRI discontinuation type Sx all week while using hydrocodone conservatively. There's no doubt in my mind that I'd be in a completely different place had I stopped cold turkey or even tapered with the kratom. I jumped from ~40g bali/day to 5mg hydrocodone 3x/day for 5 days; fairly significant decrease in opioid dosage, and then jumped off completely.

I have to say, I'm a bit surprised that I don't feel worse than I do. I know withdrawal symptoms really begin to present once elimination occurs, and this would be ~24 hours post final dose, which is approaching. And, as stated above, I am using quite a bit of other Rx and OTC meds to ease the Sx. Not out of the woods yet by far.

What's getting me, and this is obvious and to be expected, is the obsessive thoughts, and low mood associated with the repeated realization that I've decided to stop. It's like my eyes open and I'm excited to take my dose, then realize I'm not going to have mu agonism today, therefore an associated increase in pain is to occur and my mood drops; plus, as we know, they (opioids, kratom) lift mood and IME help me cope with treatment resistant depression better than anything. All of this makes anhedonia very real. Depression is my #1 enemy, severe anxiety and pain are right there with it, and all 3 influence each of the others of course. My intention is to be able to go to the pain doc and actually be "clean" so to speak and have a real conversation about my need for help; sorry, I digress.

The 2 kilos of Red Borneo and Red Bali in the other room are tempting, yet not simultaneously as I'm trying to keep in the forefront of my mind the physiological and psychological sickness that began to emerge no matter what I did or how I altered my intake of kratom.

The saga continues... I never thought kratom would turn on me the way it did. It left me with no choice but to quit. Even 4-6g doses produced the same crippling anxiety and nausea that a 15g dose would at the end; I do not know why, all I know is it happened.

 

[aspiringchemist]

ya, the longer I'm awake the more restless I'm feeling, especially in the legs, but present in the whole body. GI is painful .

 

[Fresco]

^^^^^^^^^^ dude, I'm here for you. I went through all the bullshit you're going through right now........ and more

 

[aspiringchemist]

I am about to throw in the towel and go back to kratom use. My pain has increased significantly, as to be expected. I barely made it through the work week; every hour was a battle not to leave.
I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't so to speak. I'm afraid of the same secondary effects returning, as they most likely will. But I'm on the verge of dysfunction.

 

[TexTriGuy]

I am about to throw in the towel and go back to kratom use. My pain has increased significantly, as to be expected. I barely made it through the work week; every hour was a battle not to leave.
I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't so to speak. I'm afraid of the same secondary effects returning, as they most likely will. But I'm on the verge of dysfunction.

I was on prescribed meds like hydrocodone for several years due to a back injury from multiple car accidents. I had revolutionary surgery about 2 months ago and after 4 to 5 years on opiates (and Kratom as a lesser pain reliever) ive tapered off. The symptoms were controllable except for the insomnia which sucks. I should have got some clonazepam for short term to get thru this. But aside from benzos here are some meds that are staples - you may have to go back on K until you can get these. Search for all day chemist and go from there...

Clonidine: helps with jitters and sweating. It powers your BP and can sap your energy so use sparingly.

Gabapentin or Lyrica: gabapentin is readily available, Lyrica in the US probably you need a script. But taken in the evening can help with restlessness. These take the edge off for me but do NOT give me proper sleep. Oddly I am functioning OK despite 4 days with only 1 to 2 hrs per night.

Chlorpheniramine or Benadryl - I had sneezing fits. Chlorphiriamine (chlor-trimeton) helped but sometimes I had to double up the dose. Some use Benadryl but there are reports it makes restless legs worse in some.

Loperamide - I had minor GI issues. I used 1.5 to 2 times the normal dose 3 to 4 times per day for several days, using less and less as symptoms subsided.

I used Tylenol plus Ibuprofen (500 to 1000mg acetaminophen plus 400mg ibuprofen) for aches and pains.

Find a good time to go off so that you can be off work for a bit if possible. If you work M-F for example, take your last dose Thursday night to get a head start and get thrubthe worst over the weekend.

Longer term the depression is tough. Don't discount anti-depressants in lieu of relapse. Get medical help for sure.

If you MUST use, make a plan and have proper support and relief or rescue meds to get you thru. It's hard without some kind of support - both people and medications to deal with the symptoms.

 

[GLB]

I was on prescribed meds like hydrocodone for several years due to a back injury from multiple car accidents. I had revolutionary surgery about 2 months ago and after 4 to 5 years on opiates (and Kratom as a lesser pain reliever) ive tapered off. The symptoms were controllable except for the insomnia which sucks. I should have got some clonazepam for short term to get thru this. But aside from benzos here are some meds that are staples - you may have to go back on K until you can get these. Search for all day chemist and go from there...

Clonidine: helps with jitters and sweating. It powers your BP and can sap your energy so use sparingly.

Gabapentin or Lyrica: gabapentin is readily available, Lyrica in the US probably you need a script. But taken in the evening can help with restlessness. These take the edge off for me but do NOT give me proper sleep. Oddly I am functioning OK despite 4 days with only 1 to 2 hrs per night.

Chlorpheniramine or Benadryl - I had sneezing fits. Chlorphiriamine (chlor-trimeton) helped but sometimes I had to double up the dose. Some use Benadryl but there are reports it makes restless legs worse in some.

Loperamide - I had minor GI issues. I used 1.5 to 2 times the normal dose 3 to 4 times per day for several days, using less and less as symptoms subsided.

I used Tylenol plus Ibuprofen (500 to 1000mg acetaminophen plus 400mg ibuprofen) for aches and pains.

Find a good time to go off so that you can be off work for a bit if possible. If you work M-F for example, take your last dose Thursday night to get a head start and get thrubthe worst over the weekend.

Longer term the depression is tough. Don't discount anti-depressants in lieu of relapse. Get medical help for sure.

If you MUST use, make a plan and have proper support and relief or rescue meds to get you thru. It's hard without some kind of support - both people and medications to deal with the symptoms.

Hi everyone I'm new to this.
Wondering, Iv been reading many comments on Kratom use for opioid wd. Also comments on Kratom wd, how its the same as pain med wd, also how it's physically addicting and you have to taper off. So why use it instead of just tapering off pain med? I ask b'cuz I'm concidering using Kratom to get off methadone (down to 30mg a day) I take for pain from kidney disease and birth defects in kidneys. Going to find alternative ways to help the pain. Iv been on pain meds a long time and they just don't help much any more plus I hate how they make me feel. I just want to feel normal again, sick and tired of feeling sick and tired.

 

[Xorkoth]

The reason is because kratom is very short-acting so a much faster taper is possible, and the withdrawal lasts shorter too.

Personally I have been badly addicted to both kratom and full opiates, and I find the withdrawals similarly bad, but kratom is overall probably a little easier. However, the part about kratom that's worse is that the limb restlessness is off the charts, for me it was much worse than full opiate restlessness. The feeling goes beyond restless legs, my whole body was restless, my arms as bad as my legs. This leads to a total inability to sleep. God that shit drove me crazy. But you feel less sick and the feeling isn't as hopeless as with full opiates.

 

[GLB]

Tried to edit my post and it deleted. Again, new at this lol.
(Re-post) Thank you for the info, think I'll give it a try, I'm so done with pain meds! Hope you're doing good now

 

[Transcendence]

If you don't mind, what was your preferred variety and maximum daily dose of kratom? I don't doubt your experience and have suffered kratom withdrawals myself, but even at ~20g of red vein leaf daily for a year, the withdrawal was significantly easier than morphine, PST, or suboxone.

 

[Xorkoth]

I used a red vein indo strain usually, sometimes red vein thai and then maeng da at the end. I would use it 3-5 times a day at about 10 grams each time so 30-50 grams a day. Obviously not from the beginning, but it was at that level for years which was (obviously) when the withdrawal was the worst. Also, I find that with opiates, some "kindling" occurs, meaning that every time you get dependent and withdrawal, the next time you withdraw is worse, and you get dependent easier. I withdrew many times and every time it got worse. The first handful of times were no big deal.

I have withdrawn from heroin (which was overall the worst because of the state of mind it put me in... just evil), PST, kratom, morphine and oxycodone. I preferred PST/morphine/oxy withdrawal somewhat, just because the restlessness wasn't nearly as bad and as someone who suffers from RLS sometimes since being a small child anyway, the restlessness is the worst part of opiate withdrawal for me, I can deal with the rest. Other opiates, even heroin, had a lot less restlessness than kratom, although it was still bad of course. I felt a lot sicker on other opiates and the state of mind was worse, though. It's just... if I can catch even a few hours' sleep with the aid of supplements or benzos during withdrawal, it makes it so much better better. With kratom I absolutely could not EVER sleep until it was done regardless of what meds I took or anything, and it made me insane every time. I'd have restless ARMS as bad as my legs, my the third or fourth night I'd be screaming and crying in bed, punching my legs with my damn motherfucking satan arms as hard as I could until my legs and arms went numb, so I could lay there peacefully for a whole 30 seconds without thrashing my entire body around.

Ahh, so glad I don't do opiates anymore!

 

[cdin]

I can't handle the lengthy lethargy and anhedonia... My .02 goes like this now : if I know someone is actively using opioids in a way that may stop their breathing suddenly - I wholeheartedly recommend kratom and have seen it work miracles for people stuck on fent dope and huge pill habits etc.... however... for someone without an opiate habit, myself off of it all... I would rather see someone on a small (7 day) hydro script than try to self-medicate with kratom. For me, kratom at this point is WAAAY more euphoric than traditional opiates. 1:1, I would rather take the krat. It also sneaks up with w/d and daily usage much more easily for me.... If I sprain my ankle, I could have 10 percocets and use as directed... 100g of krat not so much. But man the w/ds from it suck! I would rather barf for a few days from oxy than feel depressed, lethargic and scatterbrained from kratom for 2+ weeks

 

[oozingplazma]

The loperamide is great! I feel like unless your slammin an ounce a day, you should be good with 16mg up to 30mg max! You can maybe start at 12 mg of lope and see if that helps. Taper down by 2mg everyday, and use the zanny for sleep and mood stabilization and you should be solid within a week! Feeling brand new by 4-6wks (in my experience) good luck bro!

 

[Transcendence]

I used a red vein indo strain usually, sometimes red vein thai and then maeng da at the end. I would use it 3-5 times a day at about 10 grams each time so 30-50 grams a day. Obviously not from the beginning, but it was at that level for years which was (obviously) when the withdrawal was the worst. Also, I find that with opiates, some "kindling" occurs, meaning that every time you get dependent and withdrawal, the next time you withdraw is worse, and you get dependent easier. I withdrew many times and every time it got worse. The first handful of times were no big deal.

I have withdrawn from heroin (which was overall the worst because of the state of mind it put me in... just evil), PST, kratom, morphine and oxycodone. I preferred PST/morphine/oxy withdrawal somewhat, just because the restlessness wasn't nearly as bad and as someone who suffers from RLS sometimes since being a small child anyway, the restlessness is the worst part of opiate withdrawal for me, I can deal with the rest. Other opiates, even heroin, had a lot less restlessness than kratom, although it was still bad of course. I felt a lot sicker on other opiates and the state of mind was worse, though. It's just... if I can catch even a few hours' sleep with the aid of supplements or benzos during withdrawal, it makes it so much better better. With kratom I absolutely could not EVER sleep until it was done regardless of what meds I took or anything, and it made me insane every time. I'd have restless ARMS as bad as my legs, my the third or fourth night I'd be screaming and crying in bed, punching my legs with my damn motherfucking satan arms as hard as I could until my legs and arms went numb, so I could lay there peacefully for a whole 30 seconds without thrashing my entire body around.

Ahh, so glad I don't do opiates anymore!

Restless legs seem to affect kratom users even more than true opioid. For me it felt most similar to suboxone withdrawal. 10 days of inescapable akathesia. On the other hand, opium/morphine withdrawal didn't make me as restless but the depression and length made it the hardest thing I did in my life.

You're definitely spot on about the kindling effect, which also occurs with benzo addiction. As a teenager I could take oxycodone everyday for what seemed like nearly a month without noticeable withdrawal. After my subsequent addictions, I've learned that it only takes about two subsequent days of use to trigger mild withdrawal. And even though the initially withdrawal was the most miserable I had felt up to that point, every subsequent break up seems twice as agonizing...especially mentally.

I'm glad you're free of this stuff. Opiates are the parasites of the soul. Not until I was clean for a couple months that I realized how much happier I was sober. I could actually develop life interests again besides drugs. If I heard myself saying that at age 19 I'd scoff...it may be trite but It's so true.

 

[GLB]

If I take 4-6g once a day for two weeks, then just stop, will I get wds? This is my first time taking Kratom, and been taking it for two days now

 

[GLB]

To add to my last question, I'm taking Red Maeng Da

 

[Transcendence]

If I take 4-6g once a day for two weeks, then just stop, will I get wds? This is my first time taking Kratom, and been taking it for two days now

You might find it harder to sleep for a few nights and restlessness/tired during the day. But you shouldn't get visibly sick or be incapacitated. You may feel like you have a cold, and it shouldn't last much longer than a cold since you're a new user.

Take my advice and don't wait much longer or else you certainly will get miserably sick.

 

[GLB]

You might find it harder to sleep for a few nights and restlessness/tired during the day. But you shouldn't get visibly sick or be incapacitated. You may feel like you have a cold, and it shouldn't last much longer than a cold since you're a new user.

Take my advice and don't wait much longer or else you certainly will get miserably sick.

Thank you for the advice, Im hoping it doesn't take longer than two weeks to get past the physical wds of stopping methadone.