Kratom Why does kratom barely work for me and what can I do to change that?

[Mycophile]

I’d actually prefer a high-quality kratom product to codeine

I'd prefer any kind of kratom over Codeine. Honestly, there's literally only one time I ever felt codeine and that was the first time I used it when I drank some of my friend's cold medicine back in college when he shared it with me when he was sick. That's the only time I've taken it in liquid form. All the other times they were #3 pills with Tylenol. I've never felt them do ANYTHING, and even that one time with the syrup I just felt the mildest buzz ever. Not sure why it could be that codeine seems to have little to no effect on me when other opioids work.

 

[Mycophile]

Yeah. I hate that, leaves me irritable.

Only happens when my tolerance is too high, or if I have extraneous tolerance from other opioids.

Or from NAC which basically blocks the high.


Always on empty stomach, I'm very particular about that.

Sometimes I do eat something after about an hour. A big meal does kill the high seemingly.

What's your theory as far as feeling like it's going to work and then it doesn't?

I'm thinking that maybe it could be that those times I've taken too much and so at first before its fully kicked in maybe my body thinks it's a smaller dose and so I get the high but then once it's fully kicked in and my body realizes it was too much the high goes away. I'm not sure if that's possible though. There have been times where an overdose has actually led to the high going away without me even having many side effects.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

What's your theory as far as feeling like it's going to work and then it doesn't?

I'm thinking that maybe it could be that those times I've taken too much and so at first before its fully kicked in maybe my body thinks it's a smaller dose and so I get the high but then once it's fully kicked in and my body realizes it was too much the high goes away. I'm not sure if that's possible though. There have been times where an overdose has actually led to the high going away without me even having many side effects.

My guess is that alkaloids build up in your system from daily use and this contributes to the problem along with normal tolerance. I've read a paper that said kratom alkaloids do not downregulate mu receptors, which is generally how other opioids produce tolerance (kratom is not toxic to the receptor like morphine is, it's actually neuroprotective).

There are several mu antagonists in kratom including mitragynine itself. Mitragynine has an effective half life of around 24 hours. If it builds up in your system, it may begin to preferentially bind as an antagonist. OR the buildup of antagonists prevents a future dose from attaching as an agonist (my guess is this is correct).

That's just my theory though.

Whenever I allow time for the alkaloids to wash out of my system (generally involves enduring a period of withdrawal), I always get a better buzz than before.

 

[Mycophile]

My guess is that alkaloids build up in your system from daily use and this contributes to the problem along with normal tolerance. I've read a paper that said kratom alkaloids do not downregulate mu receptors, which is generally how other opioids produce tolerance (kratom is not toxic to the receptor like morphine is, it's actually neuroprotective).

There are several mu antagonists in kratom including mitragynine itself. Mitragynine has an effective half life of around 24 hours. If it builds up in your system, it may begin to preferentially bind as an antagonist. OR the buildup of antagonists prevents a future dose from attaching as an agonist (my guess is this is correct).

That's just my theory though.

Whenever I allow time for the alkaloids to wash out of my system (generally involves enduring a period of withdrawal), I always get a better buzz than before.

Well this has happened to me when I'm not even the least bit dependent on Kratom and haven't been using it daily, so there has to be another explanation. It's SO annoying. It's like the blue balls of drugs lol. You think you're going to get it, then you don't.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Yeah that is pretty weird :/

 

[Neuroprotection]

I haven't used much stronger opioids with any regularaty. Many years ago for 3 different surgeries I used oxycodone and hydrocodone in doses that were high enough to be recreational, but once I ran out i never bought them on the street. The only opioid I've taken with frequency is Kratom.

When you said "


are you trying to say you think that all recreational drug use with the intention of achieving euphoria is bad in your opinion? If so, I wouldn't really 100% agree. I do agree that in some ways, psychologically speaking, pleasurable drug seeking/use isn't necessarily the most healthy thing on earth, but it's also natural to want to feel good from substances like that and as long as you don't go way too overboard (which is of course subjective) I think it's ok. I am very sporadic in my drug usage and don't take that many drugs all that frequently, ESPECIALLY in comparison to people here.

So, I am not so sure I desensitized opioid receptors and I would have no way of knowing if "upregulated anti-reward pathways" in my brain. I tend to doubt it. Kratom is just SUPER weird with all it's alkaloids.

Like, I'm on a combo of plain leaf and extract now and I'm feeling mildly pleasurable but nothing very strong. It's weird cause I took the plain leaf, started to feel good, then that euphoria quickly went away so I took the extract and some of it came back. This is common for me where Kratom starts to have a good effect and then it goes away. It's very odd and I don't know why.

One reason I could be having trouble is that I frequently take naltrexone (full dose) to make it impossible for me to use kratom or phenibut or drink a lot of the time. I got it years ago for that purpose of forcing sobriety on myself for periods of time but knowing that then I could simply stop taking it and still be able to get high and drunk on these substances. HOWEVER, my doctor who first prescribed it to me told me that the wash-out period for when it will no longer be in your system and affect you is only 5 days. So really, it SHOULDN'T stop me from being able to get high on Kratom after 5 days of no taking it.

However, for some reason maybe there could be a possibility that it could interfere with a kratom high for longer. I don't know how or if that is a possibility, but maybe for me it could take 2 weeks or whatever to get a FULL kratom high, but really it shouldn't.

Kratom is just such a weird unpredictable substance. So many people here have noted how much its effects can vary from day to day, even at the same dose. The reason is probably all the many different alkaloids in it which regular opioids like Oxycodone simply don't have.

My guess is that my ability to feel most of the euphoria will come back at some point though because this kind of thing has happened before and when it did the euphoria did eventually come back. In particular I want the STIMULANT euphoria to come back as I never get that these days. Kratom can have both upper and downer effects, so like right now I am getting a mildly pleasant downer-type effect, but not the upper affect. Who knows though. Very strange substance in some ways.

Thank you for clarifying. Sorry I missed the fact that you were taking full therapeutic doses of naltrexone. which will certainly interfere with a kratom high. I don’t have any evidence for this, but I wonder if taking chronic high dose naltrexone could cause the substance to accumulate in certain tissues like BodyFat, from where it may be slowly released. if possible, try to discontinue naltrexone. for about a month, before trying kratom again. though you probably already know this, it is recommended to have regular liver function tests. as naltrexone can be harmful to the liver at therapeutic doses.

In regards to my statement about overwhelming drug euphoria, no, I didn’t mean it was a bad thing in itself on an occasional basis. I was just bringing my own experience. and that I’ve heard from others., about the unsustainability of constantly pursuing a drug purely for the euphoria, and having very high expectations about it. I just feel that this can make one miss out on the more subtle, but long-term effects of certain drugs, for example, using them as an enhancer for pleasurable activities, rather than as the sole source of pleasure or main contributor. then again, if you only do it occasionally and you don’t strictly need it to enjoy yourself, I guess there’s no problem getting really high once in a while.

In regards to the stimulant effects you are looking for from kratom, i’m not exactly sure which alkaloid is responsible, but I think it might be Mitragenine as it can affect dopamine transport. The closely related compound and metabolite 7Hydroxi-Mitragenine is a much stronger MU opioid, agonist than Mitragenine and probably contributes to the more sedating/traditional opioid like affects of Kratom.

I definitely understand why you’re looking for the stimulant effects of Kratom. Though I’ve never tried it, i’ve read that the stimulation it produces is simultaneously, very functional and enjoyable, making boring tasks, physical or mental much easier to persist with.

Overall, my advice would be a tolerance break from all drugs you can safely discontinue and do that for at least a month before reintroducing kratom.

Relate to this, are you still using adenosine, antagonist drugs, like caffeine, paraxanthine etc. I know they theoretically potentiate other substances., particularly the stimulant effects, but in my experience caffeine strongly blunts the rewarding and beneficial effects of nicotine.

Good luck

 

[AngelsandFairiesarereal]

Always on empty stomach, I'm very particular about that

Yea for sure same here, but I think after a while that’s why I started loosing a lot of weight

 

[Neuroprotection]

My guess is that alkaloids build up in your system from daily use and this contributes to the problem along with normal tolerance. I've read a paper that said kratom alkaloids do not downregulate mu receptors, which is generally how other opioids produce tolerance (kratom is not toxic to the receptor like morphine is, it's actually neuroprotective).

There are several mu antagonists in kratom including mitragynine itself. Mitragynine has an effective half life of around 24 hours. If it builds up in your system, it may begin to preferentially bind as an antagonist. OR the buildup of antagonists prevents a future dose from attaching as an agonist (my guess is this is correct).

That's just my theory though.

Whenever I allow time for the alkaloids to wash out of my system (generally involves enduring a period of withdrawal), I always get a better buzz than before.

hope I don’t come across as picky/patronising but just want to clarify something you wrote. Morphine isn’t actually toxic to opioid receptors, but it does trigger their down regulation and desensitisation. The same goes for most other semisynthetic and synthetic opioids. with long-term use of such opioids, changes can occur to the opioid receptors and their downstream signalling components, which contributes to protracted withdrawal and tolerance.
Kratom alkaloids on the other hand, display biased agonism towards the MU opioid receptor, meaning that only certain downstream signalling components are activated, whilst others are not. this leads to a different cellular response, and this may be why Kratom doesn’t usually produce respiratory depression and also why the withdrawal is so much shorter.
In regards to neuroprotection, we should be careful not to associate it with the reversal of drug tolerance. yes, in some cases, it may be that permanent tolerance. to certain drugs could be due to neurotransmitter depletion, with a component of neurotoxicity involved. However, in most cases, long-term tolerance is more likely linked to the brain, trying to establish homeostasis. I also believe transcription factors play a major role in any protracted tolerance/dependence cases. if you’re interested, read up on the field of Epigenetics in neurons, it’s absolutely fascinating and opens up the possibility of completely reversing tolerance to a wide range of drugs.

 

[Mycophile]

Thank you for clarifying. Sorry I missed the fact that you were taking full therapeutic doses of naltrexone. which will certainly interfere with a kratom high. I don’t have any evidence for this, but I wonder if taking chronic high dose naltrexone could cause the substance to accumulate in certain tissues like BodyFat, from where it may be slowly released. if possible, try to discontinue naltrexone. for about a month, before trying kratom again. though you probably already know this, it is recommended to have regular liver function tests. as naltrexone can be harmful to the liver at therapeutic doses.

In regards to my statement about overwhelming drug euphoria, no, I didn’t mean it was a bad thing in itself on an occasional basis. I was just bringing my own experience. and that I’ve heard from others., about the unsustainability of constantly pursuing a drug purely for the euphoria, and having very high expectations about it. I just feel that this can make one miss out on the more subtle, but long-term effects of certain drugs, for example, using them as an enhancer for pleasurable activities, rather than as the sole source of pleasure or main contributor. then again, if you only do it occasionally and you don’t strictly need it to enjoy yourself, I guess there’s no problem getting really high once in a while.

In regards to the stimulant effects you are looking for from kratom, i’m not exactly sure which alkaloid is responsible, but I think it might be Mitragenine as it can affect dopamine transport. The closely related compound and metabolite 7Hydroxi-Mitragenine is a much stronger MU opioid, agonist than Mitragenine and probably contributes to the more sedating/traditional opioid like affects of Kratom.

I definitely understand why you’re looking for the stimulant effects of Kratom. Though I’ve never tried it, i’ve read that the stimulation it produces is simultaneously, very functional and enjoyable, making boring tasks, physical or mental much easier to persist with.

Overall, my advice would be a tolerance break from all drugs you can safely discontinue and do that for at least a month before reintroducing kratom.

Relate to this, are you still using adenosine, antagonist drugs, like caffeine, paraxanthine etc. I know they theoretically potentiate other substances., particularly the stimulant effects, but in my experience caffeine strongly blunts the rewarding and beneficial effects of nicotine.

Good luck

I actually was never told by any doctor that naltrexone is harmful for the liver or that I should have liver function tests. Are you 100% sure about this? I feel like one of 2 prescribing psychiatrists or my GP would have mentioned this to me but no one ever has.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I actually was never told by any doctor that naltrexone is harmful for the liver or that I should have liver function tests. Are you 100% sure about this? I feel like one of 2 prescribing psychiatrists or my GP would have mentioned this to me but no one ever has.

Sorry, my mistake. Apparently, naltrexone can cause liver enzyme elevation in a significant number of patients, leading to initial concerns that it could be toxic. However, clinical experience shows this is not the case according to a recent review, I read. your doctors probably didn’t mention it because it wasn’t significant and the drug has been used safely in patients with pre-existing liver injury.

 

[Mycophile]

So finally today I got some good effects from kratom. However, it was by taking two bottles of a certain kratom extract PLUS plain leaf and 2,200mgs of phenibut plus several cups of tea while working out. The plain leaf by itself only gave me the most mild buzz, and the first bottle of extract didn't seem to work at all. Then I took plain leaf on top of extract and still didn't get much. But then I started working out to potentiate the phenibut (that always works for me. I LOVE working out on phenibut) and took another bottle of the extract plus a few cups of tea and that all together did the trick and gave me the good old kratom stimulation I like. But it's hard to say whether or not I'll be able to get these effects again because so much of it was the extract vs the plain leaf and the phenibut and the hard workout. Without those things I don't think it would have worked, and I don't usually take extracts cause they ruin your tolerance and are too addictive.

So I'll try more plain leaf by itself another day, but it's still hard as hell to get a consistent good high off of regular kratom by itself.

Have other people here had this same problem where kratom used to work well for them and now it doesn't usually have its full effect? And if so, what did you do to get it to start working again (assuming you did)?

I mean, this has happened before where once, after like a year off, I took some kratom and every time I took it it just made me irritable and didn't give me a good high. Eventually, somehow, it started working again that time.

I mean, kratom is just so unusual in comparison to other drugs. It is the most temperamental drug out there. It seems to have really specific rules to it and it seems to be notorious for its unpredictability. It's like it needs the perfect biochemical environment to work. Too much or too little or mixed with the wrong thing and it will just not work. That's not how it is with almost anything else. Not weed or alcohol or Adderall or shrooms or anything like that is all temperamental. It's not like some days you can smoke weed or drink booze and it just won't work and others it will.

So, anyone here have a better understanding of Kratom's inner workings and have any tips or explanations as to why it is so hard for me to get it to work and what will make it work better?

 

[Mycophile]

One poster said that Kratom can stop working due to "down regulation." I don't really know what that means (yes, I can google, but maybe others understand more than a google search will reveal.) So what exactly is "down regulation" and is there any way that issue can be dealt with so that the Kratom works better again?

Also, would you think that this possible "down regulation" would extend to other opioids like oxycodone, hydrocodone or Tianeptine? I don't have the former 2, and I've never tried Tianeptine, but some have said it feels somewhat similar to kratom at times so I thought I MIGHT try it at somepoint. Not sure though.

Edit: So if "down regulation" somehow means that kratom (or something else in another case) is less effective because of "a decrease in the number of receptors for a neurotransmitter," then is there any possible way to increase the number of receptors again through the use of any kind of substance? Could Ultra Low Dose Naltrexone do that? Because someone on reddit once said that that was the solution for her when kratom stopped working, but I'm wary about trying to make it myself. I just don't know if I'll accidentally take too much, but, so long as I'm not dependent on kratom when I take it, then too much would only block the kratom and not cause any precipitated WDs.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

I’m not an expert on biochemistry or psychopharmacology or anything like that, but I doubt that there’s a drug-induced way to make your brain more receptive to kratom. Maybe there is though, I dunno.

I still think that the best thing is maybe to just write it off and come back later.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I really don't understand kratom tolerance at all sometimes.

I recently tapered from 7-OH and other stuff, and eventually switched back to regular kratom. I did not feel any effects at all for 3 weeks during the taper, then one day it just suddenly started working again. I'd get good effects from 4-5g of powder.

Then 3 days later it stopped working again completely. I don't know why.

Such a weird plant.

 

[Mycophile]

I’m not an expert on biochemistry or psychopharmacology or anything like that, but I doubt that there’s a drug-induced way to make your brain more receptive to kratom. Maybe there is though, I dunno.

I still think that the best thing is maybe to just write it off and come back later.

Well do you think that kratom will ever work well for me again? Cause simply waiting isn't going to do anything.

In looking it up, especially on Reddit, there are TONS of people who have reported having problems getting effects from kratom for all sorts of different reasons and people who have had all sorts of different hacks and ways of getting it them back again. People talk about using all sorts of different potentiators (but i've used many already) and doing different things like switching up how you take it (I never make tea but I could try) or doing weird stuff like "red bubble tek" where you mix the kratom with something and then freeze it. I don't even know how they are doing that. I'm just saying it's something many have dealt with before and some have overcome.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Well do you think that kratom will ever work well for me again? Cause simply waiting isn't going to do anything.

In looking it up, especially on Reddit, there are TONS of people who have reported having problems getting effects from kratom for all sorts of different reasons and people who have had all sorts of different hacks and ways of getting it them back again. People talk about using all sorts of different potentiators (but i've used many already) and doing different things like switching up how you take it (I never make tea but I could try) or doing weird stuff like "red bubble tek" where you mix the kratom with something and then freeze it. I don't even know how they are doing that. I'm just saying it's something many have dealt with before and some have overcome.

Maybe it’ll work again? Or maybe not. Either way, you won’t be expending money, time, mental bandwidth or expectation on a drug that no longer works for you, that’s all I’m saying

Reddit is good for certain but, regarding drug related topics, there’s a lot of crap and misinfo on there, more so than here ime/imo. But yeah they might have something there, worth a shot I guess. I know on the topic of “potentiators” generally-speaking, it can sometimes be hard to differentiate between that and simple polydrug (ab)use

 

[Mycophile]

Maybe it’ll work again? Or maybe not. Either way, you won’t be expending money, time, mental bandwidth or expectation on a drug that no longer works for you, that’s all I’m saying

Reddit is good for certain but, regarding drug related topics, there’s a lot of crap and misinfo on there, more so than here ime/imo. But yeah they might have something there, worth a shot I guess. I know on the topic of “potentiators” generally-speaking, it can sometimes be hard to differentiate between that and simple polydrug (ab)use

Yeah, I usually don't even use it often, but then I'll get bored with life and be in a period where I want to get it to work again. The money has already been spent cause I've got kilos worth which don't do much at the moment.

 

[Mycophile]

Has anyone here ever used Shilajit before or combined it with kratom? I only just heard about it before. It's some kind of unusual plant resin that can strongly potentiate a number of drugs, including LSD, and it seems to have health benefits on its own.

I'll probably get some but I'm not sure how I'd know if one source is better than another.

I've also heard people talk about proglumide as a potentiator, but that prescription only.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I've posted about this before, and I don't really take Kratom often, but it used to be my all time favorite drug. I used to get the best euphoria ever from it, especially in a stimulant sense. But now it has honestly been well over a year since I actually have gotten a seriously good high from Kratom. I have tried different vendors and different strains, all different kinds of potentiators, different doses, on an empty stomach and with food, and the most I can get is a VERY mild feeling of sedation and a tiny bit of feeling of well being. My tolerance should be low because I so rarely take it, and so my doses will range between 2 grams to 3.7 which I took today and which is the highest in a long time, but still I barely get any effects.

Could this be kindling or something like that? I have kind of forgotten what kindling is. Isn't it kind of like perma-tolerance or something? We all know Kratom is VERY fickle in terms of what you can mix it with and dosages and all that, so I assume this has happened to others before, but it's REALLY annoying. I do find it will work medicinally, like if I take it for a hangover it gets rid of the headache or if I have had too much caffeine and it's making me anxious then when the Kratom kicks in the anxiety will go away. So it is doing SOMETHING, but it seems like it just can't do what it used to. I should stress that I have had periods in the past where I took very high doses, as much as 16 grams per day when I was addicted about 5 years ago, but then I stopped and my tolerance went way down.

Does anyone know why it won't work for me and what I can do to get it to really work again? Has this happened to anyone here before and, if so, what did you do? All I can think of is trying more vendors and strains. I think I'll get some from the first vendor I ever used since I haven't tried their stuff in several years, but really, I see no reason why any of the MANY different strains I have from a couple different vendors shouldn't be working better. I may also try to make ultra low dose naltrexone from some full dose pills I have and maybe that will help. In particular I most miss the really great stimulant highs. Anyways, any advice would be appreciated.

I've been on kratom for years and years now daily and can't get off it. Kratom is not a hard narcotic so its not too concerning but it still hits me well. It is not like the beginning but I definitely feel euphoria from it. I think what has helped is that I never took huge doses. If I don't feel it *at all* like you are experiencing, I'll instantly just cut back so I can combat withdrawals but stop trying to get high off it for a couple of days. Usually, I've found no noticeable withdrawal to cutting back greatly. Maybe a slight depression sensation that if I paid attention enough I could notice.

The good thing about kratom is that you can drop your doses very low--just enough to keep the withdrawal at bay--and still be fine. With morphine for example, should one cut their doses back in this same manner--you're going to feel like death and experience very unpleasant physical and mental symptoms. Try cutting back for a while, bite the bullet and see if after a few days the old doses hit again. There's really not much else I can think of. Embarrassing to say that I have been on kratom for 7 years straight now, and dared never miss a day. It is not the kind of drug you can try to get as high as possible on. Its more of a subtle, light euphoria that does return if you moderate your doses to be quite low when you reach that ceiling and then up the intake again.

There is no point in reaching a ceiling effect where no doses are possible to be enjoyable and keep trying to surpass that wall. While kratom is not an opiate per say (depending on which angle you look at the substance from), too many people pound their brains with opiates after that "I don't get high anymore" part of their dependencies, and never make any alterations to their using pattern to allow the euphoria to return. You're going to have to relinquish something for a temporary time period to achieve the same pleasant auras that you once did.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I've been on kratom for years and years now daily and can't get off it. Kratom is not a hard narcotic so its not too concerning but it still hits me well. It is not like the beginning but I definitely feel euphoria from it. I think what has helped is that I never took huge doses. If I don't feel it *at all* like you are experiencing, I'll instantly just cut back so I can combat withdrawals but stop trying to get high off it for a couple of days. Usually, I've found no noticeable withdrawal to cutting back greatly. Maybe a slight depression sensation that if I paid attention enough I could notice.

The good thing about kratom is that you can drop your doses very low--just enough to keep the withdrawal at bay--and still be fine. With morphine for example, should one cut their doses back in this same manner--you're going to feel like death and experience very unpleasant physical and mental symptoms. Try cutting back for a while, bite the bullet and see if after a few days the old doses hit again. There's really not much else I can think of. Embarrassing to say that I have been on kratom for 7 years straight now, and dared never miss a day. It is not the kind of drug you can try to get as high as possible on. Its more of a subtle, light euphoria that does return if you moderate your doses to be quite low when you reach that ceiling and then up the intake again.

There is no point in reaching a ceiling effect where no doses are possible to be enjoyable and keep trying to surpass that wall. While kratom is not an opiate per say (depending on which angle you look at the substance from), too many people pound their brains with opiates after that "I don't get high anymore" part of their dependencies, and never make any alterations to their using pattern to allow the euphoria to return. You're going to have to relinquish something for a temporary time period to achieve the same pleasant auras that you once did.

Not sure what you think of this, but would you compare Kratom to nicotine/smoking as others have. I am actually really interested in trying Kratom as a replacement for caffeine since caffeine worsens, my procrastination and regularly causes me anxiety. which is sometimes severe at high doses. now, I might be a bit of a strange person, but I don’t mind becoming dependent/ addicted. to a substance, so long as it is easily, available and helps me get through the day without detrimental psychological side-effects. my first drug of choice to replace caffeine will be nicotine which I absolutely love, I will get it from a pure product and not from smoking. therefore, I’d be interested to know about any similarities between nicotine and Kratom in terms of effects if you’ve ever tried both.
Also, do you know if caffeine can interfere with the effects of Kratom in a negative way? at least for me, this is definitely the case with nicotine, that is, caffeine seriously diminishes the motivational, concentration, and mood, enhancing, effects of nicotine for me and also decreases overall rewarding affects.