Kratom Why does kratom barely work for me and what can I do to change that?

[Mycophile]

I've posted about this before, and I don't really take Kratom often, but it used to be my all time favorite drug. I used to get the best euphoria ever from it, especially in a stimulant sense. But now it has honestly been well over a year since I actually have gotten a seriously good high from Kratom. I have tried different vendors and different strains, all different kinds of potentiators, different doses, on an empty stomach and with food, and the most I can get is a VERY mild feeling of sedation and a tiny bit of feeling of well being. My tolerance should be low because I so rarely take it, and so my doses will range between 2 grams to 3.7 which I took today and which is the highest in a long time, but still I barely get any effects.

Could this be kindling or something like that? I have kind of forgotten what kindling is. Isn't it kind of like perma-tolerance or something? We all know Kratom is VERY fickle in terms of what you can mix it with and dosages and all that, so I assume this has happened to others before, but it's REALLY annoying. I do find it will work medicinally, like if I take it for a hangover it gets rid of the headache or if I have had too much caffeine and it's making me anxious then when the Kratom kicks in the anxiety will go away. So it is doing SOMETHING, but it seems like it just can't do what it used to. I should stress that I have had periods in the past where I took very high doses, as much as 16 grams per day when I was addicted about 5 years ago, but then I stopped and my tolerance went way down.

Does anyone know why it won't work for me and what I can do to get it to really work again? Has this happened to anyone here before and, if so, what did you do? All I can think of is trying more vendors and strains. I think I'll get some from the first vendor I ever used since I haven't tried their stuff in several years, but really, I see no reason why any of the MANY different strains I have from a couple different vendors shouldn't be working better. I may also try to make ultra low dose naltrexone from some full dose pills I have and maybe that will help. In particular I most miss the really great stimulant highs. Anyways, any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Mycophile]

Also, this is kind of unrelated, and I have never gotten much effect from codeine, but I found an old bottle of #3s the other day and I took 5 and felt NOTHING. Shouldn't I have felt SOMETHING from Codeine when I have no tolerance?

I don't really care if it works or not cause it's never been something I used, but being that it's another opioid that doesn't work for me makes me wonder what's up. I strongly assume that stronger true opioids like Oxy and Hydro would be working, but I'm not going to try to find them.

 

[wheresmy.dragon]

I've posted about this before, and I don't really take Kratom often, but it used to be my all time favorite drug. I used to get the best euphoria ever from it, especially in a stimulant sense. But now it has honestly been well over a year since I actually have gotten a seriously good high from Kratom. I have tried different vendors and different strains, all different kinds of potentiators, different doses, on an empty stomach and with food, and the most I can get is a VERY mild feeling of sedation and a tiny bit of feeling of well being. My tolerance should be low because I so rarely take it, and so my doses will range between 2 grams to 3.7 which I took today and which is the highest in a long time, but still I barely get any effects.

Could this be kindling or something like that? I have kind of forgotten what kindling is. Isn't it kind of like perma-tolerance or something? We all know Kratom is VERY fickle in terms of what you can mix it with and dosages and all that, so I assume this has happened to others before, but it's REALLY annoying. I do find it will work medicinally, like if I take it for a hangover it gets rid of the headache or if I have had too much caffeine and it's making me anxious then when the Kratom kicks in the anxiety will go away. So it is doing SOMETHING, but it seems like it just can't do what it used to. I should stress that I have had periods in the past where I took very high doses, as much as 16 grams per day when I was addicted about 5 years ago, but then I stopped and my tolerance went way down.

Does anyone know why it won't work for me and what I can do to get it to really work again? Has this happened to anyone here before and, if so, what did you do? All I can think of is trying more vendors and strains. I think I'll get some from the first vendor I ever used since I haven't tried their stuff in several years, but really, I see no reason why any of the MANY different strains I have from a couple different vendors shouldn't be working better. I may also try to make ultra low dose naltrexone from some full dose pills I have and maybe that will help. In particular I most miss the really great stimulant highs. Anyways, any advice would be appreciated.

There is opiate tolerance which is directly linked to your routine and regime ,i have always exactlyfelt how tolerant i am the problem comes when u ate too naive and take a wrong dose.
did you use any when u wrote this post ,i believe u did....increase ur dose if u want to feel it ,i always contemplate using kratom for methadone withdrawls after a strong taper.

your over thinking it maybe u have too many responsibilities now and just need a higher dose to get in that mental zone , but do tell me pound for pound how could we compare heroin to kratom
and by the way the naltraxone blocks it out and if is still in your system some of your receptors are bocked and u cant get a complete high,it feels like hanging in the middle i tried heroin with it and once accidentally ate it while beeing hooked on smack for months ,it precipitated me into withdrawls ,i vomitted my guts out and what was below the vomit came out the other hole since then.i chucked naltrexone out only methadone
sorry going off topic ,but plan ur next usage and look forward to.it and try to.have a low metabolic rate on.that day ,if u know what i.mean

 

[Mycophile]

There is opiate tolerance which is directly linked to your routine and regime ,i have always exactlyfelt how tolerant i am the problem comes when u ate too naive and take a wrong dose.
did you use any when u wrote this post ,i believe u did....increase ur dose if u want to feel it ,i always contemplate using kratom for methadone withdrawls after a strong taper.

your over thinking it maybe u have too many responsibilities now and just need a higher dose to get in that mental zone , but do tell me pound for pound how could we compare heroin to kratom
and by the way the naltraxone blocks it out and if is still in your system some of your receptors are bocked and u cant get a complete high,it feels like hanging in the middle i tried heroin with it and once accidentally ate it while beeing hooked on smack for months ,it precipitated me into withdrawls ,i vomitted my guts out and what was below the vomit came out the other hole since then.i chucked naltrexone out only methadone
sorry going off topic ,but plan ur next usage and look forward to.it and try to.have a low metabolic rate on.that day ,if u know what i.mean

First off, when it comes to Naltrexone, I know because I have a prescription for it that I got so I could more easily control myself with alcohol and Kratom rather than using willpower...it's only FULL dose (or possibly low dose) Naltrexone which blocks opioids. I was talking about Ultra Low Dose Naltrexone which actually potentiates opioids and also prevents withdrawal. Not many people know that naltrexone behaves ENTIRELY differently depending on the dosage, but some others here know.

I don't really think it's just simply a dosage thing though. I DON'T have tolerance because I very rarely use Kratom. In the past, when I would stop Kratom for long periods of time a dose of 2.5 grams would usually be enough, but 3.7 today only made me a little sedated and that was it. And the thing is is that in lower doses Kratom is usually a stimulant and I like that effect better, whereas in higher doses it's more sedating. Well, I only ever get the sedating effects no matter how low I go, and even then the sedation isn't a great high like it used to be. If I just needed to raise the dose then that means that I'd need to take 4 or more grams which doesn't really make sense without a tolerance, and also, I get a the same kind of feeling as when I've taken TOO much in the past when I take doses like the one I took today. It's not the same feeling as not having taken enough.

And are you asking me how Kratom compares to heroin "pound for pound"? Because I can't answer that since I have never done heroin. I stick to Kratom and sometimes very very rarely in the past I've used some oxy or hydro if I was prescribed it, but i don't buy it on the street. Have you not done Kratom before? Sounds like you haven't. But Kratom is certainly VERY weak in comparison to heroin. It's also much weaker than oxycodone or hydrocodone, but it's different because it has stimulant effects and other alkaloids.

 

[meeer]

Without substance to add I don't usually post, however being based in Australia in both the Medical and Street Scene I must say I have not come across a confirmable case of kratom use once. Although iv semi retired from some of my harm reduction actions on both fronts as it took to much personal time and after a near decade finally its crunch time with some family issues so I have reassigned my energy else where for now.

As for Kindling it is more so meaning the reaction you get each time you try detox and reuse allowing the detox symptoms to become more extreme aka the "negative affects", to say a perma-tolerance would be a slight misnomer but a similar train of thought, it is not exactly a tolerance to the actual drug and the affects caused, it is more so the negative affects your body is experiencing as stated this tends to build with serious addiction and relapse. This doesn't cross out all potential you could get this from kratom and I am not minimalizing in any way the affects, however please consider the following; With every withdrawal, symptoms present more severe than in previous episodes. Individuals who have put them selves through multiple withdrawal episodes are at an increased risk of worsening or severe withdrawal symptoms this can at first present similar to PAWS however can be far more serious and those who experience or have experienced PAWS may be at a higher risk of Kindling. The more serious affects of kindling are, up to and including seizures and death. Long-term activation of the GAB receptor by sedative–hypnotic drugs causes chronic GABA receptor downregulation as well as glutamate overactivity, which can lead to drug and neurotransmitter sensitization, central nervous system hyperexcitability, and excitotoxicity.

Please note taking Grams + a day of anything should be done with care and consideration as while its toxicity and potency may be endlessly weaker than some drugs with affinity for the same receptors this does not make it any less dangerous to consume in large amounts or at all. Also take into consideration with drugs such a codeine, that Opiates, such as morphine and codeine, are natural opioids found in the opium poppy however, what we get is Semi Synthetic Due to costs and raw material/resources however regardless of this codeine is known to have over/under or even total inactivity within approximately 15% of the population. This can be the source of codeine hyper/hyposensitivity as well as the ability to not convert the drug into morphine as without this process in the body the drug is essentially useless.

I wish I could provide you with more information or proper studies I had looked up during parts of this however time is fickle as of the moment. Enjoy and best of luck with your endeavours.

 

[Mycophile]

Without substance to add I don't usually post, however being based in Australia in both the Medical and Street Scene I must say I have not come across a confirmable case of kratom use once. Although iv semi retired from some of my harm reduction actions on both fronts as it took to much personal time and after a near decade finally its crunch time with some family issues so I have reassigned my energy else where for now.

As for Kindling it is more so meaning the reaction you get each time you try detox and reuse allowing the detox symptoms to become more extreme aka the "negative affects", to say a perma-tolerance would be a slight misnomer but a similar train of thought, it is not exactly a tolerance to the actual drug and the affects caused, it is more so the negative affects your body is experiencing as stated this tends to build with serious addiction and relapse. This doesn't cross out all potential you could get this from kratom and I am not minimalizing in any way the affects, however please consider the following; With every withdrawal, symptoms present more severe than in previous episodes. Individuals who have put them selves through multiple withdrawal episodes are at an increased risk of worsening or severe withdrawal symptoms this can at first present similar to PAWS however can be far more serious and those who experience or have experienced PAWS may be at a higher risk of Kindling. The more serious affects of kindling are, up to and including seizures and death. Long-term activation of the GAB receptor by sedative–hypnotic drugs causes chronic GABA receptor downregulation as well as glutamate overactivity, which can lead to drug and neurotransmitter sensitization, central nervous system hyperexcitability, and excitotoxicity.

Please note taking Grams + a day of anything should be done with care and consideration as while its toxicity and potency may be endlessly weaker than some drugs with affinity for the same receptors this does not make it any less dangerous to consume in large amounts or at all. Also take into consideration with drugs such a codeine, that Opiates, such as morphine and codeine, are natural opioids found in the opium poppy however, what we get is Semi Synthetic Due to costs and raw material/resources however regardless of this codeine is known to have over/under or even total inactivity within approximately 15% of the population. This can be the source of codeine hyper/hyposensitivity as well as the ability to not convert the drug into morphine as without this process in the body the drug is essentially useless.

I wish I could provide you with more information or proper studies I had looked up during parts of this however time is fickle as of the moment. Enjoy and best of luck with your endeavours.

First off, I do NOT believe it is even remotely possible to die from Kratom kindling. I don't know if you are trying to say that can happen, but I have never once heard of it.

Also, what do you even mean when you say "I have not come across a confirmable case of Kratom use once"? Are you trying to see you have never known anyone who used Kratom? Well, if that's the case, there are MANY people who do on this forum lol. I'm in the U.S., but I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I don't know why you are bringing up GABA drugs here, because even though I do take low doses of Klonopin which I'm working on weaning off of, Kratom is not a GABA drug to the best of my knowledge.

You also seem to think that Kratom is much more dangerous than it is. Kratom is a relatively safe herb that has never really led to deaths except when combined with certain other more dangerous substances. Have you ever used kratom yourself?

Yes, I have heard that withdrawal symptoms for different drugs can get worse each time you stop and start again, and that's what I always thought kindling was. However, I am not getting WD symptoms, and I haven't been using kratom frequently, and that's not even what my question was about.

All in all, I'm really not sure what you are trying to say here. I do however think that I could be one of those people who Codeine doesn't work for as per your explanation regarding that.

Kratom does work for me though, just not like it used to. I got a very sedating high today, but just not the kind of euphoric stimulant high I used to get.

 

[meeer]

First off, I do NOT believe it is even remotely possible to die from Kratom kindling. I don't know if you are trying to say that can happen, but I have never once heard of it.

Also, what do you even mean when you say "I have not come across a confirmable case of Kratom use once"? Are you trying to see you have never known anyone who used Kratom? Well, if that's the case, there are MANY people who do on this forum lol. I'm in the U.S., but I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I don't know why you are bringing up GABA drugs here, because even though I do take low doses of Klonopin which I'm working on weaning off of, Kratom is not a GABA drug to the best of my knowledge.

You also seem to think that Kratom is much more dangerous than it is. Kratom is a relatively safe herb that has never really led to deaths except when combined with certain other more dangerous substances. Have you ever used kratom yourself?

Yes, I have heard that withdrawal symptoms for different drugs can get worse each time you stop and start again, and that's what I always thought kindling was. However, I am not getting WD symptoms, and I haven't been using kratom frequently, and that's not even what my question was about.

All in all, I'm really not sure what you are trying to say here. I do however think that I could be one of those people who Codeine doesn't work for as per your explanation regarding that.

Kratom does work for me though, just not like it used to. I got a very sedating high today, but just not the kind of euphoric stimulant high I used to get.

Hey apologies for any confusion caused, if someone more personally experienced with Kratom or its use could chime in that would be great because in my experience, mostly with no confirmed uses in those whom iv seen or responded to I believe its because I live in Australia so I simply haven't come across anyone who's said to have both taken and be able to confirm what they took was 100% kratom extract. Those who think they have can not been sure of what was in the extract mixture. Also Australia has some real shit laws with drugs Salvia for example if I'm not wrong once found as well most mind altering substances once found were automatically scheduled here by our laws simply once their found their already illegal essentially as far as I understand it. Kratom though is illegal here!

Also please keep in mind that these drugs aren't the most researched in the world and just because they aren't known to be a Gaba targeting drug does not mean it cannot affect the system.
Chemically Kratom it acts as an agonist at the Mu receptors and an antagonist at the Kappa receptors. These effects lead to the inhibition of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), an inhibitory neurotransmitter

To make this real simply I'm going to Copy Paste the medical definition from the NIH for kindling and hopefully that should answer the question of what kindling is and why, 1 Kratom probably wont easily induce such a issue if at all, 2 your inability to feel or get affects from the drug is not akin to a kindling mechanism start up, there are various and multiple vast reasons from genetics to so many other things as to why you may not feel kratom. You may have kept a life long semi tolerance to past oxy/hydro use enough that these peptides and molecules don't do it for you.

And no I have never heard of Kratom causing kindling affects serious enough for death apologies for not being more clear and concise in my communication. Take for an example the late Juice Wrld he didn't OD in the classic sense of respitory depression from too much oxy and codeine, he got toxicity from the exposure if I'm not wrong, was administered Narcan after a seizure and simply passed. Why do I bring this up? Essentially try your best to remember what can affect your health can be more than just adverse negative affects that present immediately, or are known common side affects from the drug.

I did want someone more informed on kratom to step in as in Aus. here I tend to find its just not a common scene where I am at least.

This was a quick cover of the most important info you wanted to know I'm sorry I don't have time at the moment to go over everything you stated but once again I was never trying to say Kratom could or would cause all these issues, but theres not enough evidence for anyone to say for sure Kratom can not cause kindling and that it could not be just as serious as other forms of it. Do also take into account Kindling as far as I AM AWARE is just a model as are many things. The kindling model (Post, 1992) is a nonhomologous basic science model of the relationship between psychosocial stress

Apologies again for any confusion it was more a blanket statement on kindling and if caused by anything seemingly can get pretty intense that being said no iv never heard it happen from Kratom but many other opioid/opiate catalysts I have.

Essentially your question of these things not working is a whole other conversation to kindling, and as I believe I stated above the issue with codeine and why you may not feel that.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Hey apologies for any confusion caused, if someone more personally experienced with Kratom or its use could chime in that would be great because in my experience, mostly with no confirmed uses in those whom iv seen or responded to I believe its because I live in Australia so I simply haven't come across anyone who's said to have both taken and be able to confirm what they took was 100% kratom extract. Those who think they have can not been sure of what was in the extract mixture. Also Australia has some real shit laws with drugs Salvia for example if I'm not wrong once found as well most mind altering substances once found were automatically scheduled here by our laws simply once their found their already illegal essentially as far as I understand it. Kratom though is illegal here!

Also please keep in mind that these drugs aren't the most researched in the world and just because they aren't known to be a Gaba targeting drug does not mean it cannot affect the system.
Chemically Kratom it acts as an agonist at the Mu receptors and an antagonist at the Kappa receptors. These effects lead to the inhibition of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), an inhibitory neurotransmitter

To make this real simply I'm going to Copy Paste the medical definition from the NIH for kindling and hopefully that should answer the question of what kindling is and why, 1 Kratom probably wont easily induce such a issue if at all, 2 your inability to feel or get affects from the drug is not akin to a kindling mechanism start up, there are various and multiple vast reasons from genetics to so many other things as to why you may not feel kratom. You may have kept a life long semi tolerance to past oxy/hydro use enough that these peptides and molecules don't do it for you.

And no I have never heard of Kratom causing kindling affects serious enough for death apologies for not being more clear and concise in my communication. Take for an example the late Juice Wrld he didn't OD in the classic sense of respitory depression from too much oxy and codeine, he got toxicity from the exposure if I'm not wrong, was administered Narcan after a seizure and simply passed. Why do I bring this up? Essentially try your best to remember what can affect your health can be more than just adverse negative affects that present immediately, or are known common side affects from the drug.

I did want someone more informed on kratom to step in as in Aus. here I tend to find its just not a common scene where I am at least.

This was a quick cover of the most important info you wanted to know I'm sorry I don't have time at the moment to go over everything you stated but once again I was never trying to say Kratom could or would cause all these issues, but theres not enough evidence for anyone to say for sure Kratom can not cause kindling and that it could not be just as serious as other forms of it. Do also take into account Kindling as far as I AM AWARE is just a model as are many things. The kindling model (Post, 1992) is a nonhomologous basic science model of the relationship between psychosocial stress

Apologies again for any confusion it was more a blanket statement on kindling and if caused by anything seemingly can get pretty intense that being said no iv never heard it happen from Kratom but many other opioid/opiate catalysts I have.

Essentially your question of these things not working is a whole other conversation to kindling, and as I believe I stated above the issue with codeine and why you may not feel that.

No juice died from an overdose…I understand what you are saying but I’m fully convinced these days it was strait opioid OD. Yeah I know high level of promethazine too but yeah just saying.

I know he seized but that’s part of opioid OD apparently

 

[WellTram]

Promethazine can cause seizures by itself alone mostly in 100+mg dose range. Once i ste 6x25mg and at the morning i had to drink 2 bottles of wine to stop convulsions. It worked but i just want to say that promethazine is a typical antipsychotic but 25-50mg act as a sedating antihitamine. It's much atronger than for example hydroxyzine.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I've posted about this before, and I don't really take Kratom often, but it used to be my all time favorite drug. I used to get the best euphoria ever from it, especially in a stimulant sense. But now it has honestly been well over a year since I actually have gotten a seriously good high from Kratom. I have tried different vendors and different strains, all different kinds of potentiators, different doses, on an empty stomach and with food, and the most I can get is a VERY mild feeling of sedation and a tiny bit of feeling of well being. My tolerance should be low because I so rarely take it, and so my doses will range between 2 grams to 3.7 which I took today and which is the highest in a long time, but still I barely get any effects.

Could this be kindling or something like that? I have kind of forgotten what kindling is. Isn't it kind of like perma-tolerance or something? We all know Kratom is VERY fickle in terms of what you can mix it with and dosages and all that, so I assume this has happened to others before, but it's REALLY annoying. I do find it will work medicinally, like if I take it for a hangover it gets rid of the headache or if I have had too much caffeine and it's making me anxious then when the Kratom kicks in the anxiety will go away. So it is doing SOMETHING, but it seems like it just can't do what it used to. I should stress that I have had periods in the past where I took very high doses, as much as 16 grams per day when I was addicted about 5 years ago, but then I stopped and my tolerance went way down.

Does anyone know why it won't work for me and what I can do to get it to really work again? Has this happened to anyone here before and, if so, what did you do? All I can think of is trying more vendors and strains. I think I'll get some from the first vendor I ever used since I haven't tried their stuff in several years, but really, I see no reason why any of the MANY different strains I have from a couple different vendors shouldn't be working better. I may also try to make ultra low dose naltrexone from some full dose pills I have and maybe that will help. In particular I most miss the really great stimulant highs. Anyways, any advice would be appreciated.

Whilst I’ve never used Kratom or any other opioid for that matter, i’ve heard plenty of experiences like yours. The loss of euphoria or the so-called magic of a particular drug/class of drugs is actually quite common but not well understood. It is probably a combination of psychological, neurobiological and metabolic/pharmacokinetic alterations that occur, especially with long-term use or even with a few occasions of very high dose administration. it commonly occurs with MDMA, sedative hypnotics, opioids and with the abuse of certain antidepressants. I assume you are using or have used much stronger opioids in the past, though please correct me if I’m wrong. this could definitely desensitise opioid receptors to the much weaker Kratom alkaloids.
There’s another possibility which I find convincing and fascinating. It may be that your past drug use has upregulated anti-reward systems in your brain, particularly the Dynnorphin/kappa opioid Receptor pathway. The kappa opioid receptor is renowned for its ability to diminish the pleasurable and reinforcing effects of both natural and drug rewards.
I do suggest you try the ultra low dose naltrexone and see how that goes. However, it might also be beneficial to change your mindset. i’m not saying you’ve done anything wrong, but in my experience, strong, intoxicating euphoria from any substance is just not sustainable and it’s not good for the psychological well-being especially if it overshadows naturally pleasurable activities. from what you said, Kratom still provides you with a range of medicinal benefits, so maybe you should use it sparingly for these purposes. also, in regards to the loss of Kratom’s pleasurable affects you unfortunately faced, that might be partly due to a change in your life circumstances for example, I remember using caffeine at very high doses for its perceived euphoric and stimulating properties. what I didn’t realise, is that caffeine simply gave me more nervous/jittery energy and it would only feel euphoric if I was already in a good mood and didn’t have any work to do that day. however, once I started employment, high dose caffeine began giving me severe anxiety and worsening my procrastination. I don’t think it was a random biological change, but rather, a secondary neurobiological change triggered by a change in my emotional/mental environments.
If possible, try to take an extended break from all rewarding drugs, turn to healthy eating, nutrition and adequate sleep and maybe even get a medical check up for hormone levels. opioids and psychiatric drugs have a reputation for messing with sex hormone levels which intern can strongly affect the reward systems of the brain.
I wish you all the best, and I do hope you can enjoy Kratom as you used to again.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Promethazine can cause seizures by itself alone mostly in 100+mg dose range. Once i ste 6x25mg and at the morning i had to drink 2 bottles of wine to stop convulsions. It worked but i just want to say that promethazine is a typical antipsychotic but 25-50mg act as a sedating antihitamine. It's much atronger than for example hydroxyzine.

Yeah. I thought when he first ODd it was from the promethazine and was certain based off the information available but then I was talking with @AlsoTapered and learned that opioids in high emough doses can cause seizures too. And the drs said it was an opioid overdose so I concluded that the seizure was a result of the oxy. But I guess we just won’t ever really know.

Promethazine has a lower ld50 though. Much much lower than. Oxycodone if I remember right.

 

[Mycophile]

Whilst I’ve never used Kratom or any other opioid for that matter, i’ve heard plenty of experiences like yours. The loss of euphoria or the so-called magic of a particular drug/class of drugs is actually quite common but not well understood. It is probably a combination of psychological, neurobiological and metabolic/pharmacokinetic alterations that occur, especially with long-term use or even with a few occasions of very high dose administration. it commonly occurs with MDMA, sedative hypnotics, opioids and with the abuse of certain antidepressants. I assume you are using or have used much stronger opioids in the past, though please correct me if I’m wrong. this could definitely desensitise opioid receptors to the much weaker Kratom alkaloids.
There’s another possibility which I find convincing and fascinating. It may be that your past drug use has upregulated anti-reward systems in your brain, particularly the Dynnorphin/kappa opioid Receptor pathway. The kappa opioid receptor is renowned for its ability to diminish the pleasurable and reinforcing effects of both natural and drug rewards.
I do suggest you try the ultra low dose naltrexone and see how that goes. However, it might also be beneficial to change your mindset. i’m not saying you’ve done anything wrong, but in my experience, strong, intoxicating euphoria from any substance is just not sustainable and it’s not good for the psychological well-being especially if it overshadows naturally pleasurable activities. from what you said, Kratom still provides you with a range of medicinal benefits, so maybe you should use it sparingly for these purposes. also, in regards to the loss of Kratom’s pleasurable affects you unfortunately faced, that might be partly due to a change in your life circumstances for example, I remember using caffeine at very high doses for its perceived euphoric and stimulating properties. what I didn’t realise, is that caffeine simply gave me more nervous/jittery energy and it would only feel euphoric if I was already in a good mood and didn’t have any work to do that day. however, once I started employment, high dose caffeine began giving me severe anxiety and worsening my procrastination. I don’t think it was a random biological change, but rather, a secondary neurobiological change triggered by a change in my emotional/mental environments.
If possible, try to take an extended break from all rewarding drugs, turn to healthy eating, nutrition and adequate sleep and maybe even get a medical check up for hormone levels. opioids and psychiatric drugs have a reputation for messing with sex hormone levels which intern can strongly affect the reward systems of the brain.
I wish you all the best, and I do hope you can enjoy Kratom as you used to again.

I haven't used much stronger opioids with any regularaty. Many years ago for 3 different surgeries I used oxycodone and hydrocodone in doses that were high enough to be recreational, but once I ran out i never bought them on the street. The only opioid I've taken with frequency is Kratom.

When you said "

strong, intoxicating euphoria from any substance is just not sustainable and it’s not good for the psychological well-being especially if it overshadows naturally pleasurable activities.

are you trying to say you think that all recreational drug use with the intention of achieving euphoria is bad in your opinion? If so, I wouldn't really 100% agree. I do agree that in some ways, psychologically speaking, pleasurable drug seeking/use isn't necessarily the most healthy thing on earth, but it's also natural to want to feel good from substances like that and as long as you don't go way too overboard (which is of course subjective) I think it's ok. I am very sporadic in my drug usage and don't take that many drugs all that frequently, ESPECIALLY in comparison to people here.

So, I am not so sure I desensitized opioid receptors and I would have no way of knowing if "upregulated anti-reward pathways" in my brain. I tend to doubt it. Kratom is just SUPER weird with all it's alkaloids.

Like, I'm on a combo of plain leaf and extract now and I'm feeling mildly pleasurable but nothing very strong. It's weird cause I took the plain leaf, started to feel good, then that euphoria quickly went away so I took the extract and some of it came back. This is common for me where Kratom starts to have a good effect and then it goes away. It's very odd and I don't know why.

One reason I could be having trouble is that I frequently take naltrexone (full dose) to make it impossible for me to use kratom or phenibut or drink a lot of the time. I got it years ago for that purpose of forcing sobriety on myself for periods of time but knowing that then I could simply stop taking it and still be able to get high and drunk on these substances. HOWEVER, my doctor who first prescribed it to me told me that the wash-out period for when it will no longer be in your system and affect you is only 5 days. So really, it SHOULDN'T stop me from being able to get high on Kratom after 5 days of no taking it.

However, for some reason maybe there could be a possibility that it could interfere with a kratom high for longer. I don't know how or if that is a possibility, but maybe for me it could take 2 weeks or whatever to get a FULL kratom high, but really it shouldn't.

Kratom is just such a weird unpredictable substance. So many people here have noted how much its effects can vary from day to day, even at the same dose. The reason is probably all the many different alkaloids in it which regular opioids like Oxycodone simply don't have.

My guess is that my ability to feel most of the euphoria will come back at some point though because this kind of thing has happened before and when it did the euphoria did eventually come back. In particular I want the STIMULANT euphoria to come back as I never get that these days. Kratom can have both upper and downer effects, so like right now I am getting a mildly pleasant downer-type effect, but not the upper affect. Who knows though. Very strange substance in some ways.

 

[Mycophile]

Normally I try to avoid extracts due to making plain leaf less effective and the possibility of worse withdrawals, but for anyone who understands how kratom works, what do you think it means that the best and most consistent effects I can get these days are from kratom extracts? Could that mean that certain alkaloids present in plain leaf that aren't in extracts are disagreeing with me, and if so, how can I use that knowledge to enhance my plain leaf experiences?

Also, does anyone have a theory as to why what good effects I can get are more of the downer type effect whereas I can't really get the good stimulant effect I used to?

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I've been using kratom pretty much daily in extremely high doses for 10+ years. I'm talking like 30-40+ grams per day (for the majority of that time). I've also used plenty of extracts in ridiculous doses.

I have never failed to achieve the same euphoric buzz whenever I attempt to take a break to lower tolerance. It always comes back.

I feel like if permanent tolerance were a thing, I would have experienced it by now.

Now, I do run into periods were I barely feel anything from kratom, but this is just normal tolerance and goes away when I stop using it regularly.

 

[Mycophile]

I've been using kratom pretty much daily in extremely high doses for 10+ years. I'm talking like 30-40+ grams per day (for the majority of that time). I've also used plenty of extracts in ridiculous doses.

I have never failed to achieve the same euphoric buzz whenever I attempt to take a break to lower tolerance. It always comes back.

I feel like if permanent tolerance were a thing, I would have experienced it by now.

Now, I do run into periods were I barely feel anything from kratom, but this is just normal tolerance and goes away when I stop using it regularly.

Yeah, see now I am quite high but like I said, I took some extract (and I'm on phenibut and a 0.50 weed gummy) and that's what's working rather than the plain leaf. So you haven't ever found Kratom to be "temperamental" in terms of its effects? I know many others have. I remember a couple years ago someone on here said he could take the exact same dose of the exact same strain and vendor on different days and get different results. I think it's just due to there being so many different alkaloids.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

It's definitely a finicky bitch!

But tolerance breaks always worked for me.

 

[Mycophile]

It's definitely a finicky bitch!

But tolerance breaks always worked for me.

Have you ever had it where you take some and it's starting to kick in and it feels like it's working and then like 15-20 minutes later when it's fully kicked in (approx. 45 mins after you've taken it) the high that was starting to build is suddenly gone? That's something that's happened many times and I can never understand it.

Also, do you take it on an empty stomach or do you eat with it? Cause that's another finicky thing about it. Most seem to like it on an empty stomach but I've had times where I was on an empty stomach and it wasn't working and then I ate a little and started feeling it as a result, and I've also had where eating kills the high which is of course very common.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Yeah I’d recommend taking an extended tolerance break. After that maybe take an extract or something, see if that gets you there

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Also, this is kind of unrelated, and I have never gotten much effect from codeine, but I found an old bottle of #3s the other day and I took 5 and felt NOTHING. Shouldn't I have felt SOMETHING from Codeine when I have no tolerance?

I don't really care if it works or not cause it's never been something I used, but being that it's another opioid that doesn't work for me makes me wonder what's up. I strongly assume that stronger true opioids like Oxy and Hydro would be working, but I'm not going to try to find them.

I’d actually prefer a high-quality kratom product to codeine

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Have you ever had it where you take some and it's starting to kick in and it feels like it's working and then like 15-20 minutes later when it's fully kicked in (approx. 45 mins after you've taken it) the high that was starting to build is suddenly gone? That's something that's happened many times and I can never understand it.

Yeah. I hate that, leaves me irritable.

Only happens when my tolerance is too high, or if I have extraneous tolerance from other opioids.

Or from NAC which basically blocks the high.

Also, do you take it on an empty stomach or do you eat with it? Cause that's another finicky thing about it. Most seem to like it on an empty stomach but I've had times where I was on an empty stomach and it wasn't working and then I ate a little and started feeling it as a result, and I've also had where eating kills the high which is of course very cocommon.

Always on empty stomach, I'm very particular about that.

Sometimes I do eat something after about an hour. A big meal does kill the high seemingly.