What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[Hilopsilo]

indigoauro I want to clarify something about the lab test you had done.

The test results on ecstasydata for your sample said that it was 5 parts MDMA and 1 part some-precursor, but it does not mention the purity/quality of the 5 parts that are MDMA. Or, is the ratio exactly that; suggesting that the sample was 1 part precursor and 5 parts 100% pure mdma? Making your sample 83% pure? If this is true, does that mean if the 1 part precursor were removed, it would be 100% pure MDMA?

For example, this report: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6074
Is that legit nearly half a gram of straight 100% pure MDMA in a single pill? Or is the only active ingredient MDMA, and there is other crap that they didn't measure? It seems like the reports on here don't have enough detail to be fully conclusive or contain the whole story. Certainly there are also binders? And even a small amount of red dye?

Also, Montel, reagent test kits are relatively easy to fool as they only determine the presence of MDMA. I tested this myself a while back by mixing a small amount of MDMA with an inert substance, I tried this with both baby powder and brown rice flower. I made two 100mg samples to create a similar amount to that of a single dose; first as 1:1 MDMA to baby powder, and the other 1:1 MDMA to brown rice flower. Using my reagent test kit, as expected, both samples appeared as MDMA. Unless there is another active ingredient mixed in that a reagent test can pick up (reagent tests certainly do not test for brown rice flower or baby powder), it will test as MDMA. So hypothetically, a dealer could cut their MDMA by at least 50% with something stupid like saw dust and there wouldn't be any way to know really.

And thats why lab tests are really important for any meaningful scientific discussion here, since there is so much crap that can be (and is) added to MDMA, active or not, that won't show up on a reagent test. I've also tested ground-score caps (that are clearly supposed to be MDMA) that turned colors that weren't even on the charts.

I'm actually curious what the results would be if someone were to send in a sample to ecstasydata thats 50% pure MDMA and 50% sawdust lol.

 

[Erikmen]

From what I hear, MDMA is now totally different from what it used to be. Not only because it's cut but mostly because they now mix the drug with different drugs than it was originally done before. I hear that a lot of people experience paranoia and others that feel good don't describe it as it used to be 10 years ago, for example.

 

[indigoaura]

Hilopsilo,

My understanding is that they only test for certain active substances. So, for example, if caffeine is mixed in, then it will show up because they specifically look for caffeine. However, in the USA, the total weight of the sample is the weight of the whole sample, and NOT necessarily the weight of all the active substances. The ratio, as far as I understand, means that there was a 5/1 ratio of MDMA to precursor.

So, theoretically, there could be sawdust in there as well, and if they are not looking for it then it is not going to show up in their results. This is one of the things that makes us concerned regarding the people who get VERY sick of 1 pill, but they did not even roll. Is there some other active substance that is not showing up because they are not looking for it?

The chemistry people in the thread understand this aspect better than I do.

I see what you are saying though. Maybe there is only 50 mg of MDMA in the whole sample and other inert filler. If that were the case, then taking two should fix the problem, but it doesn't.

 

[montel]

Sounds to me that the mdma simply wasn't very good. As you say, you need at least two samples ideally more. But what is the actual point? 4 people took some weak mdma - hence the results. What is this meant to prove? (Don't buy from x supplier?)

 

[montel]

From what I hear, MDMA is now totally different from what it used to be. Not only because it's cut but mostly because they now mix the drug with different drugs than it was originally done before. I hear that a lot of people experience paranoia and others that feel good don't describe it as it used to be 10 years ago, for example.

Again, this suggests that back in the day somehow all labs were united and used the same synth route. Given the sheer volume of labs in the 1990s - how could that be remotely possible? (just as today) There are many ways to make mdma, many different precursors available, etc. And where is this "a lot of people experience paranoia" reference actually coming from? Surely pillreports (for example) would be full of posts warning people - but they're not? If it's mostly in the UK then it's simply bad mdma - and I've explained previously that the UK is particularly prone to very unscrupulous chemists. More so than anywhere else in Europe. It wasn't a dutch lab that introduced piperazines in the mid-2000s, it was from somewhere in the UK.

Perhaps a lot of this paranoia is from users who took piperazines 10 years ago and are now faced with the overwhelming (and no doubt scary) effects of actual mdma? Although I'd still put it down to just really bad mdma.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Glubra did you ever run Raman spec on the newer product? I forget.

No, just immunoassay test on site. The owners of the product consumed it all soon afterwards.
It is described here.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Just to clarify, the new users were in the presence of Glubrahnum, an experienced user. He stated that 4 people took MDMA and had no eye dilation.

I'd like to clarify, that I am not an experienced user. I took MDMA only once in my life (19years ago). I loved it so much that I never took it again for the fear that I could never stop. I have a medical and chemical background and I work in a pharmaceutical lab. That's how I have access to the immunoassay field tests and other goodies.

Indeed in that report, I observed the tan crystals up close and under 8x magnification, I positively tested them as MDxx with the immunoassay kit and I helped to weigh them, encapsulate them, re-weigh their gross mass and observed their ingestion and their effects.
I was not under the influence of MDxx when making these observations ...nor any other psychoactive substance (including ethanol).

 

[Glubrahnum]

I have massive doubts that what they were given was pure "Dutch MDMA crystal".
150mg of pure MDMA completely obliterates every single person I've ever seen take 150mg of pure MDMA.

Yes, thus your only conclusion based on that data should be that the "Dutch MDMA crystal" was not pure racemic 3,4-MDMA • HCl.

From your previous posts, I can surmise that you are suspecting that the "Dutch MDMA crystal" contained a high proportion of a cutting agent, however in the case I've described, you seem to be suffering from a confirmation bias, because you are ignoring the evidence brought forth by the macroscopic crystalline appearance of the substance.

I assume you know, that significant impurities perturb the formation of large crystalline lattices, especially if they do not form chemical bonds with the substrate (e.g. flour or baby powder).

No pupil dilation? Ok c'moooooon. That just proves the MDMA used there was either low dosed or just fake. Why? Because every single time I've had perfectly good, pure MDMA (the kind that 100mg makes you rethink your whole fucking life, in a good way), my pupils fucking dilate! And so does everyone elses.And no, this MDMA is not from the 90's or whenever, its from 2018.

Yes, >=100mg of pure racemic 3,4-MDMA • HCl should cause full Mydriasis in a 80kg "virgin" subject.
And that is my point exactly. IMO, the "Dutch MDMA Crystal" is not pure racemic 3,4-MDMA • HCl because it does not cause full Mydriasis even in higher doses.
This might be correlated with the appearance of the mega-dosed Dutch pills on the market lately ...and actually might be the cause of the need for the higher doses.

my pupils fucking dilate! And so does everyone elses.And no, this MDMA is not from the 90's or whenever, its from 2018.

Just because you have not encountered this bad "Dutch MDMA" in your geographic area, does not mean that is it not ubiquitous in other areas.
...and when it does appear on your doorstep, how do you propose to recognize it before consumption? ...by a smell test?

 

[montel]

I'd like to clarify, that I am not an experienced user. I took MDMA only once in my life (19years ago). I loved it so much that I never took it again for the fear that I could never stop. I have a medical and chemical background and I work in a pharmaceutical lab. That's how I have access to the immunoassay field tests and other goodies.

Indeed in that report, I observed the tan crystals up close and under 8x magnification, I positively tested them as MDxx with the immunoassay kit and I helped to weigh them, encapsulate them, re-weigh their gross mass and observed their ingestion and their effects.
I was not under the influence of MDxx when making these observations ...nor any other psychoactive substance (including ethanol).

From my experience the mdma that's always stood out from the rest was always clear, not tan. In fact, the tan mdma is the one I'd be more likely to need more of to reach that sweet spot. I do find it strange to test mdma on 4 people in a clinical environment - it isn't the same as taking it in a club or a house party, or even in the informal atmosphere of your own home - that alone I think would seriously alter how people are affected and how they'd react.

Perhaps you would have seen some eye-rolling and jaw clenching if you'd thrown them in a club and told them to dance for 8 hours - which is a far more intense experience as anyone will tell you.

Could you elaborate on exactly what kind of setting they were in? So far it sounds like a room in a hospital?

 

[Glubrahnum]

Could you elaborate on exactly what kind of setting they were in? So far it sounds like a room in a hospital?

I don't understand how you could have gotten that impression when I wrote

Recently, I observed the effects of various oral doses of brownish "Dutch MDMA Crystals" in 4 different VIRGIN subjects (30 - 60 year old) in a house-party social setting.

It was a house party among very close friends in familiar surroundings. They usually only drink at these parties, but one of them just came from Utrecht, NL and and brought some Dutch crystal, that he bought there, and proposed to try it instead. People were ambivalent about it and they asked me for advice because they knew where I work. I said, that I cannot recommend it without testing it, so they coaxed me into digging out an old but still unexpired immunoassay field test, after which I inspected the crystals in a pocket microscope, diluted a sample of the crystals in dH₂O and tested it positively. Then I helped them weigh it and encapsulate it according to the doses they wanted (a fat friend took 130mg). I interviewed them for any conflicting drug use (such as harmaline, etc) and instructed/educated them about MDMA after which they ingested it and I watched the effects (or lack thereof). I told them to put on a 130bpm electronic dance music and we found something on YT and it played till morning. 2h later another friend came over and he received the highest dose (150mg) because the others were not exhibiting any Mydriasis nor the other typical effects.

 

[montel]

Sorry, I completely missed that part. My bad.

Again, though, it does sound like some really weak mdma, nothing more.

There's no way of knowing if it's Dutch mdma - it could have been manufactured in Germany or Belgium.

It all boils down to the point that a test kit is really only good for testing for PMA or other adulterants - A test kit will not give you an indication of how strong the actual mdma is. Did it fizz under the marquis test by any chance? Was there an inky purple (not red) before it turned black? These are probably the better indicators - perhaps that might be a better approach to finding something stronger although I've no idea if that's 100% accurate.

 

[Glubrahnum]

Again, though, it does sound like some really weak mdma, nothing more.

Do you mean 'cut with an inert substance" when you write "weak" ?

If "yes", then there is a hole in that theory because significantly cut/diluted 3,4-MDMA • HCl would not form large crystals.
Also, notice that these 4 people were feeling some effects, so the doses can be considered "active".

Do you remember what were the active oral doses reported by Shulgin?
Did he report that low but "active" doses can exhibit ANY symptoms of that duration ...but without Mydriasis and Trismus ?
Did he report that a dose 50% higher than the lowest active dose, still does not exhibit Mydriasis ?

There's no way of knowing if it's Dutch mdma - it could have been manufactured in Germany or Belgium.

Correct, but there is preponderance of anecdotal evidence of people from that geographic area having the same problem.

Did it fizz under the marquis test by any chance? Was there an inky purple (not red) before it turned black? These are probably the better indicators

I did not use the Marquis reagent to test the sample. I used an Immunoassay test which is more selective and sensitive than Marquis reagent for MDxx. The test was was made after a 1000000:1 dilution in dH2O so it gives somewhat of a quantitative positive result with one order of magnitude accuracy.

 

[Erikmen]

Again, this suggests that back in the day somehow all labs were united and used the same synth route. Given the sheer volume of labs in the 1990s - how could that be remotely possible? (just as today) There are many ways to make mdma, many different precursors available, etc. And where is this "a lot of people experience paranoia" reference actually coming from? Surely pillreports (for example) would be full of posts warning people - but they're not? If it's mostly in the UK then it's simply bad mdma - and I've explained previously that the UK is particularly prone to very unscrupulous chemists. More so than anywhere else in Europe. It wasn't a dutch lab that introduced piperazines in the mid-2000s, it was from somewhere in the UK.

Perhaps a lot of this paranoia is from users who took piperazines 10 years ago and are now faced with the overwhelming (and no doubt scary) effects of actual mdma? Although I'd still put it down to just really bad mdma.

Yes, all the above is probably what is happening. Perhaps just like gold old LSD, idk. The reference was in the newspapers where reports from distressed ppl as well as one suicide. Things are different and we can't really expect the same drug for 20+ years. I suppose that the demands also make thinks change.

 

[psy997]

To those saying it's weak mdma, nothing more. I've had two experiences with tested mdma that were plenty strong effects wise, although lacking in empathy and general loved-up-ness - couldn't tell you about eye dilation as we were at a club - that came down sharply in 3-4 hours after dosing, just like is being documented here with the bad stuff.

It's not just weak mdma if there are strong effects, it's tested as mdma, and it's sharply decreasing in effect so shortly. There's something really odd at play. And, from the sounds of it, multiple odd things in play in various parts of the world.

 

[indigoaura]

To those saying it's weak mdma, nothing more. I've had two experiences with tested mdma that were plenty strong effects wise, although lacking in empathy and general loved-up-ness - couldn't tell you about eye dilation as we were at a club - that came down sharply in 3-4 hours after dosing, just like is being documented here with the bad stuff.

It's not just weak mdma if there are strong effects, it's tested as mdma, and it's sharply decreasing in effect so shortly. There's something really odd at play. And, from the sounds of it, multiple odd things in play in various parts of the world.

Thank you, psy997.

That has been my observation as well. The questionable MDMA is definitely active, and it has a distinct, observable, reliable, effect. It just does not have the same effect as quality MDMA.

If something is "weak" MDMA (ie low milligram), then all you would need to do is take two or three to get where you need to be. I have had plenty of experiences like that. Eventually, you still roll once you get the dose right.

With the questionable product, you never achieve the desired state, even with a high dose.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Correct, but there is preponderance of anecdotal evidence of people from that geographic area having the same problem.

At this point, I can't help but suspect that saying its "pure Dutch mdma" is nothing more than a marketing scheme since for so long that was where all the good MDMA came from historically.

@montel I've had the extreme misfortune of taking a fake MDMA pressed pill filled with piperazine and it was an incredibly shitty experience, far "scarier" than any experience I've had with proper MDMA (not to mention there is absolutely no way that someone who has experienced good MDMA could be fooled by that nasty stuff). I was unable to find good MDMA for a good 2 years after having that experience, but when I finally got some it was like day and night, you know instantly.

 

[Le Junk]

You're saying i've done both the "orange tesla's" and the "red surpremes"
Pill form doesnt say anything. Anyone can make any pillform.
Having the same pillform as an online trip report doesnt mean you're taking the same pill.

I sent each one of those pills into ecstaysdata.org for GC/MS testing. They both tested as MDMA only and both were typical new MDMA crap.

 

[montel]

I sent each one of those pills into ecstaysdata.org for GC/MS testing. They both tested as MDMA only and both were typical new MDMA crap.

I'm not really sure where this thread is going now so I'll bow out - but I'll (for the last time) repeat my previous point. If mdma synthesis has changed then you are suggesting that every illegal laboratory is using the same synthesis and they're all buying precursors from the same place. That doesn't make any sense to me, not in the past or now. If they were all so closely connected then it would only take a handful of lab busts to bring down the entire network - again, this makes no sense given that there are numerous lab busts every year (check the partyflock forums, they mention them occassionaly in the Drugs forum) My only advice would be to look harder and don't assume it's all dynamite stuff - it isn't. It varies a hell of a lot from batch to batch. Intense spontaneous feelings of empathy and love subside dramatically after you become familiar with the drug - don't expect to hug trees every time you take it.

 

[Glubrahnum]

I'm not really sure where this thread is going now

There is only one sensible direction.
Namely, development of a reliable test for the bad "MDMA" before consumption.
This would not only improve the quality of the available drug but also save a lot of lives and health issues.

I do have the knowledge and equipment to do it, but I would need samples and virgin test subjects...and I cannot get either without risking going to jail.

...and they're all buying precursors from the same place.

Maybe not all but many.
Anyway, cheaply offering a contaminated precursor and not banning it, is a very effective way to "poison the well". ...not all wells, but many of them.

 

[montel]

Okay, I haven't quite gone yet.

I agree 100% - a test kit that gives a more detailed analysis would be a gift from heaven - and is definitely needed. Just because it tests positive doesn't mean you'll be reaching for the lasers, that's for sure. If you're based in the Netherlands, why not try and work with a test centre and see if you can work with their labs?

I assume you mean MDP2P as the 'contaminated' precursor available not too far from where you are? That may explain a lot, definitely.