• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist | cdin | Lil'LinaptkSix

What do you consider to be, 'clean and sober'?

Assuming one doesn't doctor-shop or fake symptoms, has prescriptions, and isn't addicted to non-prescription legal highs (including grey-area), and doesn't get high from them beyond sufficient symptomatic relief, just prescription drugs, caffeine, nicotine, and plant-derived cannabinoids (if they don't degrade mental health). Supplements are fair game (fish oil, magnesium), but not crazy addictive stuff like phenibut, or ones used per prescription in other countries like the racetams.
 
Sober from opiates would include not being on methadone or bupe. It's really aggravating to hear someone say that they are sober and they are on a hundred mg of methadone a day.
 
I really believe that this question has to be defined by the individual to a certain extent. In the instance of weed, many people that use it medicinally for sleep, say, would not consider this any more problematic than using caffeine to get going in the morning.


Couldn't have said that better.

For me, "clean" means living without the recreational effects of substances over a prolonged period of time, exempting medicinal use (as in the weed example above: when I get clean off opiates, I still smoke a J every night just so I can sleep, but consider myself clean nontheless).

"Sober" just means to me that you're not fucked up at this very moment.
 
Brutus I see where you're coming from but it must be really hard to switch even from heroin to maintenance therapy.
 
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^doubt it; when i see people nodding their ass off on a huge dose of methadone i'm not going to consider their life/transition being all that difficult, if anything it was probably a fun transition since they could get higher for less money and no legal consequences. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

there are some people who switch to maint. drugs that really want to quit and then there are others who are happy to hit 200mg of methadone and mix in whatever benzos they can find to stay high forever. I don't have problems with either group, they are clean of their DOC i guess, unless the maintenance drug is their new DOC, either way, if it affects their life negatively, that's their issue. I'm not going to get too bothered by it unless they keep bumming smokes off me. Or if they get up on their high horse and start slamming heroin addicts or something.
 
To me, clean = free of recreational drugs; sober = no alcohol.
Just a semantical distinction inherent in society's differentiation between 'drugs' and 'alcohol'.

Personally, I'm just trying to get back to how I was 10 years ago as a casual consumer, the weekend warrior.
Mostly cos I can't imagine a 100% drug-free life (I have nothing else to live for); even achieving this has been a losing battle though.
 
True clean and sobriety is abstaining from anything that you have been addicted to in the past that affected your life in a negative manner. But I also view sobriety as working towards getting clean while always moving forward in a positive direction towards lowering your dose, or taking less often until you reach true sobriety.
 
There shall come a time when the substance you were addicted to ,actually looks repulsive to you .

I look at a beer now ,and am turned off ,Knowing i will feel "good" for 30 minutes and bad all day tomorrow .

My secret -PRAY .
 
Good to see you here karate <3 great advice. Sometimes it means everything to someone when you give it to them.
 
^doubt it; when i see people nodding their ass off on a huge dose of methadone i'm not going to consider their life/transition being all that difficult, if anything it was probably a fun transition since they could get higher for less money and no legal consequences. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

there are some people who switch to maint. drugs that really want to quit and then there are others who are happy to hit 200mg of methadone and mix in whatever benzos they can find to stay high forever. I don't have problems with either group, they are clean of their DOC i guess, unless the maintenance drug is their new DOC, either way, if it affects their life negatively, that's their issue. I'm not going to get too bothered by it unless they keep bumming smokes off me. Or if they get up on their high horse and start slamming heroin addicts or something.

Rarely that happens. Even in liberal countries doctors do their best to make sure one doesn't get high off their methadone, which substance really isn't used that much anymore. Regardless, many on mmt crave heroin horribly.
 
Couldn't have said that better.

For me, "clean" means living without the recreational effects of substances over a prolonged period of time, exempting medicinal use (as in the weed example above: when I get clean off opiates, I still smoke a J every night just so I can sleep, but consider myself clean nontheless).

"Sober" just means to me that you're not fucked up at this very moment.

I have smoked cannabis every day for over 15 years and never had a negative experience on it, so I have no problems with it or people who use it, but as it produces a high, I still wouldn't class it as being clean if you still smoke it every day, even if it's for sleep. I gave it up just under a month ago followed by giving up opiates, crack and benzo's a couple weeks later, but I still only count myself 12 days clean, as that's when I stopped taking any substance that produces a high. As you point out yourself sober means just not high at the moment and that's what I'd class smoking cannabis every night as, sober during the day and high at night.
 
Rarely that happens. Even in liberal countries doctors do their best to make sure one doesn't get high off their methadone, which substance really isn't used that much anymore. Regardless, many on mmt crave heroin horribly.

I can confirm that, all going on methadone maintenance did was raise my tolerance to opiates, but it never stopped me using heroin on top, the only time it lessened my use of heroin was when I got above 60ml and even then I still craved heroin, it was just that when I used it on top of a high dose of methadone you could barely feel it, from over saturation of the opiate receptors if I remember correctly. Also it wasn't easy getting above 60ml of methadone, you have to keep on going back to your key worker and explaining why the dose you're on isn't holding you properly, as they assess your habit when you first come to see them and usually have a maximum dose that they'll let you go up to, unless you can prove that it's not stopping you using on top and even then it's a slow process getting increases.
 
If I consume substances(except essential nutrients and of course water) to change my state of mind/being, I can't consider myself as clean and sober.

RobotRipping said:
clean and sober don't mean much to me, functional and sustainable are more highly valued in terms of my life and those around me.

+1
 
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RobotRipping's got the right idea.

As long as I stay away from that junkie lifestyle and frame of mind I'm happy.
 
I consider myself clean as long as I am not using needles, stems, or plugging something with an oral syringe. I guess the ROA is what I base being clean on, at least for me as I am quite habituated and I do not fuck up my life and am a productive member of society as long as I stay away from those three devices.

I am actually rather proud of myself for dropping the gear out of my life.

I certainly do not mean any offense to people that want to abstain from substances altogether and in fact I take my hat off to those people as they do what I could never. I know this is an HR forum, but I simply answered the question.

I honestly think sobriety is based on functionality. Some people may not sleep well and have no business driving or working with machinery in that state for example.
 
clean and sober...

for me your system would have to be clear of all psychoactive substances

its such a gray area topic though that i agree its pretty subjective, considering caffeine has such a minor effect on our mind and bodies

but for me the ultimate is to use certain psychoactive substances as something to spice up my life at extended periods, in a fashion which will not intrude on my daily life in between those extended periods, so i dont think you can use anything with regularity (more than once a week) and be clean in my book
 
I personally generally define "clean" as clean from one's drug of addiction, although it does depend on the context the word is used in. If someone was addicted to heroin and they quit but are taking methadone or Suboxone strictly as maintenance and don't feel any high at all from it, merely the relief of withdrawal symptoms, then I think they have every right to say they are "clean" from heroin. They are still physically dependent on a drug but that shouldn't diminish the fact that they have still made major changes in their life and their use of drugs, and have clearly done some work on their mental addiction. I also think, for example, if someone was addicted to crack but they still smoke a joint or have a drink once a month that they are still "clean" from crack. However I wouldn't say something like "I'm totally clean from opioids" if I was still taking opioids, even if I was just maintaining or taking one that wasn't my drug of choice.

I know many people like to count number of days clean and define it to mean 100% abstaining from all drugs other than caffeine and nicotine, regardless of what drugs they had a problem with, but I don't define it that way myself and it bugs me when people push their own definitions on others, like giving someone a hard time for saying "I've been clean for 100 days" because they occasionally drink socially when that was never something they've had a problem with, or because they are on a maintenance drug or are prescribed a drug therapeutically.

Personally I don't count my number of days clean as I wouldn't even know how to count that, and it isn't very important to me or something I need to obsess over. But it is useful for me to sometimes look back on approximately how long I've gone without each specific drug that I felt was important to quit, to see that I've made progress or to consider improvements in things like PAWS during that time.

"Sober" I would generally define as not perceptibly intoxicated by drugs or alcohol. I wouldn't consider using drugs strictly therapeutically as being not "sober", even if it's a psychoactive drug, for example someone taking, say, an antidepressant, or an anxiolytic or sleeping pill, unless they are being used for recreational purposes etc. I also wouldn't consider drugs like caffeine or nicotine to make someone not "sober", since they have very subtle effects and don't make someone "intoxicated" or "high". I realize this definition is pretty vague, but it's more about how and why the drug is used and the way it affects the person.

agreed... This is very much how i feel, but you put it far more eloquently than i could.
 
I consider being "clean and sober" ingesting no mind/mood altering substances aside from caffeine and nicotine AND living by spiritual principles, being honest, having integrity, following the laws and rules set down by society. Giving back to your community, being a positive members of your community. Abstaining from drugs and alcohol is only part of being "clean and sober" in my mind a huge part is living in a righteous, morally and philosophically correct way. Which is open to interpretation to the individual. But, I didn't get sober to be hustling, wheeling and dealing, scamming and being a "shitty" person, I got sober to live right.
 
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