• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist | cdin | Lil'LinaptkSix

What do you consider to be, 'clean and sober'?

I'm on Suboxone, and I am currently working through my 137th day SOBER.

I'll leave it up to you to decide if I'm clean, however. I don't care what you decide, because at least I'm sober.
 
I'm on Suboxone, and I am currently working through my 137th day SOBER.

I'll leave it up to you to decide if I'm clean, however. I don't care what you decide, because at least I'm sober.

Good for you, man. You should feel proud of that.
 
I'm on Suboxone, and I am currently working through my 137th day SOBER.

I'll leave it up to you to decide if I'm clean, however. I don't care what you decide, because at least I'm sober.

Congrats!

Actually to me, the definitions of both clean and sober completely depends on the individual. Personally, I've been off opiates, stimulants and psychedelics, because those are the drugs I had problems with, for 17 days, and I do consider myself 'clean and sober' even though I still drink or take benzos on occasion. But I'd consider an ex-alcoholic who isn't drinking anymore but still takes other, unproblematic drugs, to also be clean and sober.
 
21 months today from drugs and alcohol. Almost 6 weeks from nicotine.
 
The phrase 'clean and sober' takes on many different meanings. My working definition is no usage of anything stronger than caffein or its herbal cousins such as ginseng. I will also use small doses of kava and other herbal/mineral supplements to help me relax if I'm stressed or not tired at night. I also brew my own kombucha and only drink large amounts of it when I can tell that its left the high alcohol stage of fermentation.

None of these things severely alter my consciousness like alcohol, cannabis, or any of the other heavier drugs. So I guess that is my baseline. I don't want to use anything that takes me to far out of my natural state. Also, none of the plants/minerals that I mention above have had negative consequences in my life save for the occasional over shooting of one two many cups of coffee. Alcohol and cannabis were pretty much running my life into the ground.

What are your thoughts on this?

I agree with your post about what constitutes being actually clean and sober.

You're NOT either clean or sober if you quit the drugs you had problems with yet you still use drugs occasionally like alcohol, benzos, or herb, psychedelics, etc. That's just replacing one drug(s), and addiction(s) for another and you eventually will relapse on your drug(s) of choice.

Someone can be not using their drugs of choice for decades; but if they're just using other drugs instead they're not clean or sober. It can take people some time to get actually sober/clean and not using any drugs including quasi-legal marijuana, or legal ones like alcohol, prescribed benzos or opiates, or legal research chemicals. Being clean and sober is not something personal, and you're only kidding yourself that you can use certain drugs like alcohol or herb and yet still be "clean" or "Sober".
 
I agree with your post about what constitutes being actually clean and sober.

You're NOT either clean or sober if you quit the drugs you had problems with yet you still use drugs occasionally like alcohol, benzos, or herb, psychedelics, etc. That's just replacing one drug(s), and addiction(s) for another and you eventually will relapse on your drug(s) of choice.

Someone can be not using their drugs of choice for decades; but if they're just using other drugs instead they're not clean or sober. It can take people some time to get actually sober/clean and not using any drugs including quasi-legal marijuana, or legal ones like alcohol, prescribed benzos or opiates, or legal research chemicals. Being clean and sober is not something personal, and you're only kidding yourself that you can use certain drugs like alcohol or herb and yet still be "clean" or "Sober".
I respect this point of view. In fact, it was absolutely critical for me to adopt a version of this in very early sobriety about six years ago. I wouldn't have made it without it. It's a rigorous definition for sure. And many, many people need extreme rigor in sobriety -- sometimes for a while; sometimes for the duration. It's certainly the A.A. way, and it works for lots of folks. Highly recommended!

PriestTheyCalledHim and the A.A. crowd would not consider me "sober" any longer, however. That's because I've used psychedelics during this period. Specifically, there have been times when I've felt myself moving closer and closer to a drink. A.A. and the accompanying fellowship, sponsorship, step work -- the whole thing -- just haven't gotten me back on track. Blame it on my program, my attitude, or whatever. (That said, casting blame or assigning responsibility actually doesn't matter a whole lot once you put bottle to lips.) In those situations, however, it's been psychedelics that have really gotten up close and personal with me with respect to the error of my ways and thinking. Mescaline, in particular, has shown me how beautiful my life is now -- and how much more beautiful it could be; how awful and meaningless it used to be; what a mess it could easily turn into again; and how grateful I really am (or should be) not to drink anymore. And I'm not talking about just a "pointing out" experience ... rather, a deep demonstration. {As a side note, I think it's a terrible shame that doctors and researchers in the '50s *knew* that psychedelics had this in them, and that this whole class of drugs was scheduled and made off-limits before their usefulness to the alcoholic could be explored in any depth.}

The point being: I don't know how to evaluate (other than in the most obvious and admittedly self-serving way) a "sobriety violating" experience that has made such a DEEP imprint on me, one that has left me committed to reapplying myself to a sober life and a generally better life. And with all due respect, it's very difficult to see how this experience could be bound to cause me "to relapse on my drug of choice" (alcohol) when the lessons learned from the experience run directly contrary. That is, the psychedelic experience has brought back to the present and reinforced the horrors of my alcoholic situation, which are by definition growing more and more distant in time as the years pass. So, the whole relapse connection is just not mentally clicking for me when it comes to psychedelics. That said, I would be amenable to some guidance and instruction. I still consider myself very "teachable."

But for now, I'm satisfied and comfortable with what I've done. I'm OK with the judgment that will accompany my actions from some corners. I can take being told that I'm not clean or sober; that I've exchanged one addiction for another (like psychedelics have addiction potential!); that I've blown it; that I'm a bad person ... or whatever anyone cares to dish out. Am I "kidding myself"? Who knows? Time will tell, right? Either I'll drink again or I won't. There isn't some other way this can go. (Although we certainly can speak of sobriety in broader terms than "drinking or not drinking.") But, for now, I'm ahead. I have no desire to drink today, and I very likely won't. Tomorrow's a safe bet, too. In fact, I'd really like to slide into Christmas Day and celebrate six years free of alcohol -- so I'll make that happen. That's what I care about. On the flip side, it's taken me a long time not to care whether some roomful of strangers can come to a consensus about whether my behavior conforms to terminology that they love and cherish. That's for them.

I'm probably misunderstanding the statement that "being clean and sober is not something personal...." It probably means that we need a consensus definition. But, to think that every individual isn't on his own solitary trip in sobriety is really to do an injustice to the incredible individuality of it all. That said, all paths should lead to the same place, I think: living a healthy, decent, productive, beautiful life ... full of love and compassion and happiness. LOTS of people I know -- and MANY more I don't know -- would fault me severely for the particular path I've found for myself. It's challenging to work through feelings and knowledge like that. But, life is complicated. And for me, it's not ALL about perfect sobriety -- like, proving something. Proving something to whom?
 
Last edited:
To me, being "clean" means no opiates (suboxone, methadone) and no benzos. I know some people include antidepressants, but I don't.
Because I'm able to have one or two drinks and stop, once a week, I'm not willing to add drinking to the list, even though it can be abused. Same with pot...if it's in moderation.
So being clean to me means basically being off MY drugs of choice. I might have a rare drink, but I've been clean from opiates for six months. It's huge for me and was really hard. I'm so glad not to be a slave to drugs any longer.
When you think of addicting things...is coffee and cigs not being clean? I quit cigs right after opiates. It was WAY easier than the opiates..
 
I respect this point of view. In fact, it was absolutely critical for me to adopt a version of this in very early sobriety about six years ago. I wouldn't have made it without it. It's a rigorous definition for sure. And many, many people need extreme rigor in sobriety -- sometimes for a while; sometimes for the duration. It's certainly the A.A. way, and it works for lots of folks. Highly recommended!

PriestTheyCalledHim and the A.A. crowd would not consider me "sober" any longer, however. That's because I've used psychedelics during this period. Specifically, there have been times when I've felt myself moving closer and closer to a drink. A.A. and the accompanying fellowship, sponsorship, step work -- the whole thing -- just haven't gotten me back on track. Blame it on my program, my attitude, or whatever. (That said, casting blame or assigning responsibility actually doesn't matter a whole lot once you put bottle to lips.) In those situations, however, it's been psychedelics that have really gotten up close and personal with me with respect to the error of my ways and thinking. Mescaline, in particular, has shown me how beautiful my life is now -- and how much more beautiful it could be; how awful and meaningless it used to be; what a mess it could easily turn into again; and how grateful I really am (or should be) not to drink anymore. And I'm not talking about just a "pointing out" experience ... rather, a deep demonstration. {As a side note, I think it's a terrible shame that doctors and researchers in the '50s *knew* that psychedelics had this in them, and that this whole class of drugs was scheduled and made off-limits before their usefulness to the alcoholic could be explored in any depth.}

The point being: I don't know how to evaluate (other than in the most obvious and admittedly self-serving way) a "sobriety violating" experience that has made such a DEEP imprint on me, one that has left me committed to reapplying myself to a sober life and a generally better life. And with all due respect, it's very difficult to see how this experience could be bound to cause me "to relapse on my drug of choice" (alcohol) when the lessons learned from the experience run directly contrary. That is, the psychedelic experience has brought back to the present and reinforced the horrors of my alcoholic situation, which are by definition growing more and more distant in time as the years pass. So, the whole relapse connection is just not mentally clicking for me when it comes to psychedelics. That said, I would be amenable to some guidance and instruction. I still consider myself very "teachable."

But for now, I'm satisfied and comfortable with what I've done. I'm OK with the judgment that will accompany my actions from some corners. I can take being told that I'm not clean or sober; that I've exchanged one addiction for another (like psychedelics have addiction potential!); that I've blown it; that I'm a bad person ... or whatever anyone cares to dish out. Am I "kidding myself"? Who knows? Time will tell, right? Either I'll drink again or I won't. There isn't some other way this can go. (Although we certainly can speak of sobriety in broader terms than "drinking or not drinking.") But, for now, I'm ahead. I have no desire to drink today, and I very likely won't. Tomorrow's a safe bet, too. In fact, I'd really like to slide into Christmas Day and celebrate six years free of alcohol -- so I'll make that happen. That's what I care about. On the flip side, it's taken me a long time not to care whether some roomful of strangers can come to a consensus about whether my behavior conforms to terminology that they love and cherish. That's for them.

I'm probably misunderstanding the statement that "being clean and sober is not something personal...." It probably means that we need a consensus definition. But, to think that every individual isn't on his own solitary trip in sobriety is really to do an injustice to the incredible individuality of it all. That said, all paths should lead to the same place, I think: living a healthy, decent, productive, beautiful life ... full of love and compassion and happiness. LOTS of people I know -- and MANY more I don't know -- would fault me severely for the particular path I've found for myself. It's challenging to work through feelings and knowledge like that. But, life is complicated. And for me, it's not ALL about perfect sobriety -- like, proving something. Proving something to whom?



I happen to believe your clean and sober...congrats on your upcoming six yrs! Awesome! Mescaline and peyote can be wonderful tools for getting your life back on track.
 
This is an interesting debate for sure. I consider someone to be clean and sober when they abstain from all street drugs, alcohol, and non-prescribed medications. For instance, I took an Advil last night. Should I go get a 24 chip/key tag? Of course not!

I had a conversation with a girl last night at an NA meeting about this very subject. She told me that people at meetings were giving her a hard time about taking anti-depressants. I told her, that if a doctor prescribed them to her, and she takes them as prescribed, I have no problem with it. And neither should anyone else.

*HOWEVER* I would say that taking something like methadone/suboxone does not make someone clean or sober. Reason being, because if I were to take even 30mg of methadone, I'm sure I would be higher than a kite.

Anyhow, I feel it is ultimately up to the individual to decide for him or herself.
 
^^ If you were to take a few milligrams of suboxone, you may get fucked up, true. But someone who had a serious opiate habit doesn't feel high at all from it. I consider myself sober being on subs, taking them as directed; And if someone tries to tell me I'm not, good for them, for trying to take someone else's inventory. 8)
 
I like the term FREE, so free from active addiction for people who are in recovery but are using medications or psychedelics in their recovery.
 
^^ If you were to take a few milligrams of suboxone, you may get fucked up, true. But someone who had a serious opiate habit doesn't feel high at all from it. I consider myself sober being on subs, taking them as directed; And if someone tries to tell me I'm not, good for them, for trying to take someone else's inventory. 8)

If you're taking them as directed, and were prescribed them, fine. Who am I to argue with a doctor's advice? It's people who *AREN'T* prescribed these drugs, that take them anyway that should not consider themselves clean.
 
What counts as 'clean' for you?

Do you think that's a useful word in helping people recover from addiction? Interested in hearing people's points of view on this.
 
Clean for me means my drug use isn't causing me problems financially or socially. Usually this means I'm not using opiates because that always ends up causing problems, but I smoke pot no matter what and that's still "clean" to me since it doesn't get in the way of my life the way opiates do.

I think the word, with regard to recovery, doesn't matter. It's how it's applied. I think teaching addicts that the only way they can be functioning members of society is to abstain from all drug use is wrong and too hard to achieve for many. Success in recovery, to me, means eliminating the issues that your drug use caused, not necessarily cutting all drug use out of your life.
 
Top