☠ WARNING ☠ Warning: Mislabeled Batch of 2C-B-Fly That Has Caused Deaths

[invert]

It seems necessary to me.

Erowid lists common oral dosage as 800 mcg to 1.3 mg.

People have suffered extremely toxic reactions from 1 mg.

Doesn't exactly seem like an overdose to me.

Well, it lists that for one known batch of bdfly, whereas for another batch it lists 800ug as heavy.

Though you are right, we don't know how their doses were measured. We just have to take their word for it. But isn't it like that with everything of this nature?

If I were taking 1 mg of something I believed to be 2cb-fly, I would probably either weigh 1 mg on a milligram scale, or weigh out 5 mg and divide it by 5 by sight; because the point would be to have a sub-threshold test dose: it wouldn't matter terribly if it were 1, 2 or 3 mg (assuming it really was 2cb-fly; as people presumably did assume). If I were taking 1 mg of something I believed to be brdfly (or, now - since this incident - I'd be more cautious and assume anything could be brdfly until proven otherwise), I would either use a sub-mg scale or I'd combine a mg scale with liquid measurement. Unless I hear otherwise (in which case I will take their word for it), I would assume that these 1 mg doses were not weighed precisely; not least because neither brdfly or any chemical I'm aware of that might be an impurity in brdfly would be expected to be dangerous at sub-mg doses. (Not that I know much about this sort of thing; but nobody's named any possibilities thus far, afaik.)

ETA: Also, even if it were just a common/heavy dose of brdfly, if you were expecting no effects (at 1mg of 2cb-fly, you'd not expect anything noticeable, right?), I imagine that would be enough to freak you out quite seriously, possibly panic (thus worsening psychological and physical symptoms) and get admitted to hospital.

 

[delsymfan]

I would like to add that while those 1mg folks DID go to the hospital, it may not have been entirely necessary.

Clearly since a friend who did more went there, it was a logical choice.

But almost every month I read about somebody who takes DXM and goes to the hospital cause they over-reacted, when they took well in the low-mid range dose levels and couldnt possibly have been in any real danger.

Granted I want people to err on the side of caution, and a hospital visit is a safer thing to do if you really feel it necessary, but i'm sure these 1mg folks would have managed just fine in bed with some water.

 

[Xorkoth]

It seems necessary to me.

Erowid lists common oral dosage as 800 mcg to 1.3 mg.

People have suffered extremely toxic reactions from 1 mg.

Doesn't exactly seem like an overdose to me.

Though you are right, we don't know how their doses were measured. We just have to take their word for it. But isn't it like that with everything of this nature?

Well, given that we know that this batch has a lower dose, likely, it seems, due to being the more potent of the isomers, now that it's been verified by a lab, it seems reasonably safe to take doses from this batch as long as they're safely measured, handled, and ingested at known safe doses, starting low.

I won't be taking any, nor do I have any, but I don't have a problem with someone taking it who is being as safe as is necessary for working with compounds of this nature. You say to get a different batch of BDfly and use that, rather than this batch. But that's not really a logical argument to make. What's different about a different batch versus this one, other than that some people overdosed on this batch? Don't overdose and you'll be just as fine as if you didn't overdose on another batch. If you received the less potent racemic mix that Erowid lists dosages for, you could take an overdose of that as well. You could take an overdose of most anything. Granted, it's easier to do with this, and that along with many other reasons is why I am choosing not to deal with this compound, personally.

I guess the main point is that it's dangerous to be working with any unresearched chemicals, especially ones with as little known about them as this one. This one is particularly dangerous, but if someone is responsible and so inclined, let them experiment... prohibition doesn't work, as we've plainly seen in the history of drugs in the modern age. Years ago, several people dosed 2C-T-7, AMT, and 5-MeO-DiPT irresponsibly, and all three caused deaths, more deaths than this has caused. Yet no one would claim that anyone who today responsibly used any of those three substances was being stupid/reckless/irresponsible/insensitive for using a substance that killed people.

 

[Voltech]

I told yesterday again with one of the responsibles of the Lab analyses. They are investigating the impurities.

The GC/MS analization method isn't enough to determine if the impurities are toxic or not. It can be possible, that some compounds disappered during the preparation of the analyses

This is the reason why nobody should experiment with this substance until the whole analization procces has finished.

Maybe there are poisonous gases or molecule structures that the gc/ms didn't show.

Please be carefull, and no resell this BRDRFLY.

 

[moniorojo]

They are investigating the impurities.

Did they say how long (aprox) this will take?!

 

[Coolio]

Does anybody know what treatments were attempted by doctors during these hospitalizations?

I just heard that the people who suffered gangrene and amputations from bromo-dragonfly overdose in Sweden were treated by medical professionals by IV diazepam and norepinephrine. Wouldn't norepinephrine be highly synergistic with bromo-dragonfly having a vasoconstrictive effect?

 

[Voltech]

Did they say how long (aprox) this will take?!

in this cain of issues, impatience is a bad allied. The best think people who have this batch can do is wait, and no do bullshit. I mean, if somebody will risk his health is up to itself. But be carefull by reselling, or put this stuff into blotters, etc... thats no be responsible.

The results will de published, that for sure.

In chemistry exists compounds who act at very low dossages (2ug.-10ug.) liberating free radicals, who can destroy you brain&body. People who make easy substance synth like meth, know this.

 

[moniorojo]

be carefull by reselling, or put this stuff into blotters

I have no intention of doing any of this. I don't even have this stuff anymore.

 

[iom]

Does anybody know what treatments were attempted by doctors during these hospitalizations?

I just heard that the people who suffered gangrene and amputations from bromo-dragonfly overdose in Sweden were treated by medical professionals by IV diazepam and norepinephrine. Wouldn't norepinephrine be highly synergistic with bromo-dragonfly having a vasoconstrictive effect?

Yes, I do believe norepinephrine would synergize as you describe. I can imagine they were trying to combat the considerable drop in blood pressure that's often observed with psychedelics. On the other hand, norepinephrine has a relatively short lifetime, so I wouldn't expect it to contribute to gangrene that develops days after the overdose.

Unfortunately, medical personnel aren't particularly familiar with psychedelic toxicity, and even we don't know much about it. In the recent reports involving the alleged bromo-dragonfly, I recall the subjects having reported feelings of "coldness" lasting well into the tail end of the experience (certainly after they were discharged from the hospital). This provides strong evidence of activity lasting well beyond the psychological effects of the substance.

Speaking in terms of pharmacokinetics, the psychological effects of the drug may "wear off" due more to down-regulation of 5-HT2a receptors in the brain (this is consistent with rapid development of high tolerance reported for all psychedelics) than metabolism of the substance. In the case of overdose, the substance itself may be metabolized very slowly ("0th order" -- implying saturation of the metabolizing enzyme -- for anyone who knows what I mean) and could remain active peripherally for many days. Alternatively, the substance could be broken down to a high half-life metabolite with peripheral activity but no central activity.

I'm neither a physician nor pharmacist, but if I had to manage a case given my current knowledge, I would administer a known 5-HT2a blocker such as risperidone and repeat dosage as necessary. Risperidone has been documented in Erowid's trip report archives to terminate trips very effectively. It is my guess that this is the safest way to treat a psychedelic overdose, and doing so could potentially save lives. Lastly, any medical professionals treating an overdose case (particularly with BDFLY) should be aware that potentially serious vasoconstriction may persist for days beyond the other physiological and psychological effects.

 

[vidaverde]

I would like to apologize for my irrational reaction the other day to MonioRojo's post about his friend experimenting with the substance in quesion (using the correct scale type, I should mention). I reacted with my emotions and not my brain, making unreasonable comparisons and passing judgement too quickly.

....In the interest of harm reduction, we ought post information regarding safe trials with it. We ought give reasoned and objective information as to its safety. If we demonize it, how are we any better than the litany of other organizations that manipulate and fabricate information on drugs? People are going to do it. You all know this. Why not help people do it safely? [/I]

I believe you are correct when you say that the answer is not to "demonize" the substance but rather find out whats going on and help people do it safely if they wish (although I strongly discourage the use of this RC). Although I implied otherwise, I am a believer in free choice and fear the day this right is minimized further by government or whomever else that may be.

What's not ok is to experiment for the sake of being able to say youve taken a substance everyone is saying is leathal, and thats what I'm afraid people may be tempted to do. 8)

I just dont want to see any more preventable tragedies, like those which we have already seen in this thread.

MonioRojo, I am sorry I inferred that you wish to harm people, as that is clearly not your intention. I was wrong.

Actually we should thank you, as you sent a sample in to be tested, did you not? :D

 

[moniorojo]

MonioRojo, I am sorry I inferred that you wish to harm people, as that is clearly not your intention. I was wrong.

No problem. I have been in contact with Joanmiro. I understand.

Actually we should thank you, as you sent a sample in to be tested, did you not?

No need to thank anybody. We did what needed to be done. I don't know if more people sent samples but a friend and I (we split an order) sent it to energy control the friday after the guy from Denmark died. I think it is our sample that got analyzed. I'm really sad that there are no more lab results from other labs on other countries. Do nobody test their chems around here?!?!?!?!

BTW you are not far from the truth about BDF as I have learnt a few minutes ago googling:

A fatal poisoning involving Bromo-Dragonfly
Forensic Science International, Volume 183, Issue 1, Pages 91-96
M. Andreasen, R. Telving, R. Birkler, B. Schumacher, M. Johannsen

"The toxicological significance of these concentrations could not be determined due to a lack of similar data in the literature. However, from the deceased's boyfriend, we know that they both ingested 1 mL of the liquid. We have quantified the liquid found with the deceased and found a concentration of 0.69 mg/mL, which means that they ingested approximately 700 μg Bromo-Dragonfly"

 

[kong]

There is a report of someone getting effects from as little as 100mcg.

It could be the more potent isomer or the brdfly that went around in the past may have been impure.

Either way, if you are crazy enough to eat any of this stuff start LOW. Don't use the erowid dosages, they may not apply to this batch.

 

[delsymfan]

Yeah Kong's statement is a good one.

We might as well accept somebody here is gonna eat it (not me yet.. dont have it).

Again, instead of treating it as prohibited, I think our best method of action is to help handle it well. Use very good liquid dilution, start at maybe 100ug at the most. Stuff like that. We need to responsibly handle it.

 

[moniorojo]

Don't use the erowid dosages, they may not apply to this batch

I agree. Erowid dosages seem to be made for hardheads. Or maybe I'm just a soft-head...

 

[PepperSocks]

Depends on the compound. I've noticed a lot of Erowid doses in the "common" range would be definite underdoses for me on certain chemicals and I'm quite sensitive to psychedelic doses compared to a lot of people on here.

 

[barstool hooligan]

Good point.
Barstool Hooligan reported on those. He promised reports on those experiences.

I know I promised to provide the TRs yesterday.
I am very busy atm.. job, university.
Same thing with the other guys.

But we talked a lot about this evening and I´ll try to write a 3rd person report tomorrow for the 1mg doses.

Short overview of my trip:

t=0 Ingestion of 8mg at 11.00 am
t+1 first effects (enhanced colours, little movements)
t+1,5 visual effects are getting a little bit stronger, i need to do something.. started to clean up. but it takes longer than usually to do simple things.
t+2 visuals were getting stronger. when i looked out the window i realised what a fucking strong trip is rolling in. window boards of the opposite house are falling down at the sidewalk like guillotines. the moisture of the inner side of a bottle is moving around like a cloud of fractals. i am able to control it and move it wherever i want. till this point it was kinda enjoyable..
t+3 puked hard. when i was done i felt very terrible. eyes were swollen, my face was red.. it felt like an allergic shock.
headache started, i felt a pressure in my hands and my head. like a poppers rush, but much more uncomfortable. i felt very cold.. despite the 3 blankets and a warm jacket.

after ~2hrs the negative body effects weakened a little bit, but they never disapeared.
visuals are getting stronger and stronger (till ~t+6), the room is waving around and changes his colour all the time.
it felt more and more like a delirium, i wasn´t able to do anything except laying in bed. i´m glad my girlfriend was around all the time.
it is comparable to a massive overdose of mdma + a strong flu.
at 0.00 my gf took me in the warm (hot) bathtub, but even there i was cold.
around 8.00am next day i was able to sleep.

at the next day i still had a terrible headache, but felt much better. no visuals, no other side-effects. i had a comfy warm feeling and slept very well the following night.

 

[delsymfan]

And your dosage again?

Sounds pretty rough there. But at the beginning then it was still somewhat pleasant?

Given that this stuff usually has like a 6 hour time to come up, my guess is you had mild effects since you took a lot from the get-go. Cause on a normal <1mg dose you probably wouldnt have had much early on.

 

[Xorkoth]

I agree. Erowid dosages seem to be made for hardheads. Or maybe I'm just a soft-head...

Depends... for some it's made for hardheads, and for some the dosages are very light. I hope they change their dosage range for BDfly... to reflect this. They should do it ASAP so people getting this don't decide to take doses much too large by checking Erowid.

Anyone have a direct line of communication with Earth, Fire, Spoon, or anyone else?

 

[PepperSocks]

I'm sure sending them a PM to their account on here would show up in their e-mail account.

Who's Spoon?

 

[Xorkoth]

One of the main Erowid guys. I think he's the main Trip Reports guy.