tv: what shows have 'jumped the shark'?

[Finder]

pfft! IMDB!? That is hardly a credible source.

So, you do not agree to disagree. Does that mean we disagree to disagree?

The #2 choice on that list is X-Files, a show you basically used plotlines from to describe what you think paranormal means.

I am not going to agree to disagree because that would assume you might be right, which you are not.

Honestly, at this point, I am wondering if I do not know what paranormal means.

I take it to mean ESP, telekinesis, aliens from outer space, people controlling weather with emotions, people controlling electricity, people causing others to burst into flames because of their own fears, people controlling others with the ton of their voice, creatures who can eat people and regurgitate them healthy, kids whose drawings come to life and hurt people, chupacabras, black oil that infects people and makes them do weird things, etc.

Does paranormal really just mean "dark mysterious and creepy?"

I agree, you don't understand what paranormal means.

I don't know how to better explain it to you, dude. The definition of paranormal according to Merriam-Webster is something "not explainable by science" which happens a lot in Twin Peaks, even in season one which you still maintain is only a murder mystery.

It's been a while since I've been through the show, so I don't have a bunch of examples handy, but one other I can think of off hand is the log lady and her predictions and warnings--those are paranormal, but I guess you would just chalk those up to being "weird", right?

 

[Fjones]

The #2 choice on that list is X-Files, a show you basically used plotlines from to describe what you think paranormal means.

I am not going to agree to disagree because that would assume you might be right, which you are not.



I agree, you don't understand what paranormal means.

I don't know how to better explain it to you, dude. The definition of paranormal according to Merriam-Webster is something "not explainable by science" which happens a lot in Twin Peaks, even in season one which you still maintain is only a murder mystery.

It's been a while since I've been through the show, so I don't have a bunch of examples handy, but one other I can think of off hand is the log lady and her predictions and warnings--those are paranormal, but I guess you would just chalk those up to being "weird", right?

I used plot lines specifically from the X-Files, as a way of illustrating my point. The focal point of every episode was an occurrence that was obviously and highly paranormal.

The focal point of Twin Peaks was "Who killed Sarah Palmer?"

I do not consider the Log Lady a good example of paranormal. Lots of people make predictions. Some of them turn out to be correct. You think that citing an example of a mild paranormal event is a convincing argument that the entire show's focus was on exploring the paranormal?

You can disagree all you want, but I still disagree with your disagreeing to agree to disagree.

 

[Jabberwocky]

so I don't have a bunch of examples handy

Tibetan divination, clues through dreams and visions is what I can think of to start with.

 

[Finder]

I used plot lines specifically from the X-Files, as a way of illustrating my point. The focal point of every episode was an occurrence that was obviously and highly paranormal.

So the focal point has to be paranormal events for a show to be considered paranormal?

The focal point of Twin Peaks was "Who killed Sarah Palmer?"

Yes, and lots of paranormal things happen in relation to who killed Sarah Palmer.

I do not consider the Log Lady a good example of paranormal. Lots of people make predictions. Some of them turn out to be correct. You think that citing an example of a mild paranormal event is a convincing argument that the entire show's focus was on exploring the paranormal?

I never claimed the show's focus was exploring the paranormal, I am saying the show used many paranormal plot devices and it paved the way for the X-Files.

You can disagree all you want, but I still disagree with your disagreeing to agree to disagree.

YOU are the one disagreeing with me and the facts that I am presenting. It's not my fault you are being too dense to understand them, yet provide nothing to the contrary except "well, I don't consider that paranormal." That is not a substantial rebuttal. I even provided a dictionary definition of what paranormal means.

This is like banging my head against a wall. I'm done. You can go back to Jack Bauer saving the world.

 

[Fjones]

Tibetan divination, clues through dreams and visions is what I can think of to start with.

Clues through dreams? That is an example of something that cnnot be explained by science? I want to discuss this further but I cannot do so until later.

 

[Fjones]

So the focal point has to be paranormal events for a show to be considered paranormal?



Yes, and lots of paranormal things happen in relation to who killed Sarah Palmer.



I never claimed the show's focus was exploring the paranormal, I am saying the show used many paranormal plot devices and it paved the way for the X-Files.



YOU are the one disagreeing with me and the facts that I am presenting. It's not my fault you are being too dense to understand them, yet provide nothing to the contrary except "well, I don't consider that paranormal." That is not a substantial rebuttal. I even provided a dictionary definition of what paranormal means.

This is like banging my head against a wall. I'm done. You can go back to Jack Bauer saving the world.

The only thing you have provided convincing examples of is your arrogance. Your argument is hardly convincing. You have given very few examples of anything paranormal.

For you to say that Twin Peaks was a precursor to The X-Files, you should be able to come up with a bit more than the Log Lady and a dream sequence. That is a long reach to the paranormal plot lines of the X Files.

Since you resorted to insults first, I assume that means you concede that I am right.

 

[Fjones]

Finder -- You state your opinion as fact, then you say I am dense because I do not agree with you.

You are arguing that Twin Peaks was a precursor to the X Files. Someone, maybe you, even said that the X Files would not have happened without Twin Peaks.

Here is my counter argument--

Twin Peaks has a few mildly paranormal themes that were not the focal point of the show.

To me, that falls short of the criteria for being a necessary precursor to the X-Files, a show that dealt with highly paranormal events each episode, as well as vast government conspiracy.

 

[TheDeceased]

I am saying the show used many paranormal plot devices and it paved the way for the X-Files.

Honestly I don't see how Twin Peaks is more relevant to the X-Files than The (original) Twilight Zone was. In fact even the music and animated open credits remind me a bit of The Twilight Zone.

Whereas I don't see the connection to Twin Peaks aside from the obvious literal relationship (FBI agent, paranormal elements)... and both Chris Carter and Frank Spotnitz have repeatedly stated their influences in interviews but have never mentioned Twink Peaks/David Lynch/Mark Frost. Here's a recent quote:

Do you see the X-Files influence in new shows? Like Lost, for instance?

Frank Spotnitz (co-writer/producer of the X Files): It would be nice to think so, but I don’t think we can claim credit for their success or anyone’s any more than the Twilight Zone or Night Stalker or The Outer Limits or the shows that inspired us. It’s all a continuum.

Here's another show (that aired 15 years before Twin Peaks) that Chris Carter has repeatedly said is one of the major inspirations for the X Files.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071003/
"Kolchak: The Night Stalker"

(It's about a reporter who investigates the supernatural.)

Carter cast the lead actor from this series as an FBI agent in a number of episodes of the X Files... But there's no sign of Kyle MacLachlan...

I think I made my point.

...

Is that a 'substantial rebuttal', Finder?

 

[TheDeceased]

On another note, House has always been terrible and 24 is indeed a steaming pile of shit.

 

[Finder]

Honestly I don't see how Twin Peaks is more relevant to the X-Files than The (original) Twilight Zone was. In fact even the music and animated open credits remind me a bit of The Twilight Zone.

The Twilight Zone was most definitely another influence. The opening theme for Twin peaks also utilizes a spooky instrumental and odd scenes of the town. The atmosphere of the X-Files practically screams David Lynch as are many of the shooting locations done in the pacific northwest where Twin Peaks was also filmed.

Whereas I don't see the connection to Twin Peaks aside from the obvious literal relationship (FBI agent, paranormal elements)...

Huh? So because a connection is literal is doesn't count?? Twin Peaks also multi-episode story arcs which a lot of shows never really utilized before. X-Files used this device for their "mythology" episodes.

and both Chris Carter and Frank Spotnitz have repeatedly stated their influences in interviews but have never mentioned Twink Peaks/David Lynch/Mark Frost. Here's a recent quote:

Here's another show (that aired 15 years before Twin Peaks) that Chris Carter has repeatedly said is one of the major inspirations for the X Files.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071003/
"Kolchak: The Night Stalker"

(It's about a reporter who investigates the supernatural.)

Carter cast the lead actor from this series as an FBI agent in a number of episodes of the X Files... But there's no sign of Kyle MacLachlan...

I'm pretty sure I've seen the influence mention, but I unfortunately have not been able to turn anything up, so maybe I am wrong about a specific mention. Still, not casting Kyle MacLachlan doesn't mean anything. David Duchovny played an FBI agent in Twin Peaks and was cast as the lead in X-Files, obviously. There are a ton of other characters from Twin Peaks who guested on X-Files over the years, the actor (I forget his name) who plays Scully's father for one.

Interesting point about that Kolchak show...I had never heard of it before.

Is that a 'substantial rebuttal', Finder?

Yes, thank you for actually arguing a counter point with some substance instead of "well, none of that fits my definition of paranormal" which isn't an argument at all.

I still don't understand how anyone could not see Twin Peaks as a paranormal show. I didn't want to get into spoilers, but here are some more examples:

[spoil]Laura's killer BOB is an evil spirit who possess a host body in order to carry out his whims. The one armed man is possessed by a good spirit named Mike who is trying to prevent BOB from killing again.

Then there is the whole "the owls are not what they seem" clue, the major having a vision and going to Cooper to tell it to him. The whole white lodge / black lodge thing. [/spoil]

All of these elements are discussed at length in the show and they are all clearly paranormal happenings. Not acknowledging them is just willful ignorance. For a something to be influenced by another it need not beat you over the head with it.

 

[Fjones]

I respect your thoroughness Finder. I resent your mocking my ideas though, and implying that I have not made a legitimate argument.

I have already conceded that some aspects of Twin Peaks were paranormal. I have disagreed, however, with your assertion that Twin Peaks was a precursor to the X Files.

Haven't there been many shows that have dealt with the paranormal? Are you saying that ANY show preceding the X Files that had any kind of paranormal sub plots was therefore a precursor to the X Files?

The Actor you are thinking of is Don Davis. But I don't see how that is relevant. Actors from Twin Peaks have moved on to many other shows, that doesn't mean Twin Peaks was a precursor to those shows.

 

[Fjones]

Also, Finder, if you can come up with a quote from Chris Carter that includes his mentioning the X-files as a precursor, please post it here. I will obviously have to concede at that point, because regardless of whether I think it is a precursor (Which I don't), if Chris Carter does, then so be it. I am not about to contradict Chris Carter on what his influences were.
But until you produce that quote, you are really just speculating and I don't see why you think your argument is so much better than mine.

 

[TheDeceased]

For a something to be influenced by another it need not beat you over the head with it.

But you didn't say influenced. You said flat out that it is a fact that The X-Files wouldn't have existed without Twin Peaks.. and I think you're wrong.

Maybe Twin Peaks was a minor influence but it certainly wasn't a major one otherwise the creators of the X Files would've mentioned it.

The opening credits of Twin Peaks don't resemble The Twilight Zone or X-Files credits at all IMO.

You could be right, but your opinion is not fact.

multi-episode story arcs which a lot of shows never really utilized before.

I could come up with 50 shows that used multi-episode story arcs before Twin Peaks.

You're kinda reaching don't you think?

 

[Max Power]

ITT: Finder gets trolled

 

[TheDeceased]

Good contribution there, Max.

In all fairness to Fjones, Finder was a little arrogant and insulting (No offense, Finder)... or maybe you mean I'm the 'troll'... Internet slang confuses me.

----

Here's another show that has recently jumped the shark:

Flight of the Conchords.

 

[Fjones]

Good contribution there, Max.

In all fairness to Fjones, Finder was a little arrogant and insulting (No offense, Finder)... or maybe you mean I'm the 'troll'... Internet slang confuses me.

----

Here's another show that has recently jumped the shark:

Flight of the Conchords.

He seems to have gotten less arrogant and insulting now that someone else is agreeing with me.

 

[His Name Is Frank]

Stop with the whining and insults and stick to the subject at hand please. How a thread about shows that jump the shark could lead to this is beyond me. Now. More shark jumping talk, less name calling.

 

[indelibleface]

 

[TheDeceased]

Stop with the whining and insults and stick to the subject at hand please.

Cock Slapper!

 

[Finder]

But you didn't say influenced.

I did say so say influenced.

You said flat out that it is a fact that The X-Files wouldn't have existed without Twin Peaks.. and I think you're wrong.

Wrong. I asserted Twin Peaks being a paranormal show as a fact (to which fjones was disagreeing yet not providing any counter argument except "I don't see example x, y, and z as paranormal). The show is about paranormal happenings and that is a fact.

My opinion, however, is Twin Peaks is a precursor to the X-Files. We are disagreeing on whether or not the show would have existed without the other. I can dig that you don't agree with me.

Maybe Twin Peaks was a minor influence but it certainly wasn't a major one otherwise the creators of the X Files would've mentioned it.

Fair point.

The opening credits of Twin Peaks don't resemble The Twilight Zone or X-Files credits at all IMO.

I think Twin Peaks opening credits resemble X-Files more than Twilight Zone.

I could come up with 50 shows that used multi-episode story arcs before Twin Peaks.

You're kinda reaching don't you think?

No, I don't think I am reaching. Lynch also filmed Twin Peaks more like a movie would be filmed than TV had been previously filmed at the time, something the X-Files clearly took to the next level. Look at how much X-Files raised the bar with how well-shot each episode is.

In all fairness to Fjones, Finder was a little arrogant and insulting (No offense, Finder)... or maybe you mean I'm the 'troll'... Internet slang confuses me.

In all fairness, fjones doesn't know how to argue a point, unlike yourself. I was simply frustrated.