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The Scientific Explanation Thread

Of course! I am not anti-science.

I am anti people having blind faith in science, and using it as a means of 'proving' something as absolute truth. Objectivity, method, data etc - they can all be manipulated to suit a desired outcome, just as much as anything else.
 
^ Meh all pointless !!!!! Just get straight to the big question how and why!
 
lostpunk5545 said:
I disagree with what you are saying, but only because I believe I am more informed on the subject of evolution than you (but not through lack of intelligence or anything - I've just spent a lot of time reading about it).

Evolution is pretty much verified, as far as anything in science (or in fact anything full stop can be). Experiments with fruit flies which have very short life spans (and therefore evolve faster) have shown exactly how sexual selection, and random mutations can change a variety of factors in an organism. This is but one example of observation of evolution at work.

There are numerous other examples, such as bacteria evolving to be immune to antibiotics and insects and plants doing the same thing to pesticides and herbicides. Plus there is the fossil record which is a whole other story.

But you were mentioning the origin of evolution and therein is another example of science that is not yet reached a formal conclusion - but is well on the way. There are a few different theories. But the most credible in my mind is that after a long time of increasingly chemical reactions occurring on the early earth an inorganic compound became organic (that is, it was capable of self replication). So obviously DNA was something that evolved in and of itself over a long time.

Anyways if you're interested the wikipedia article, origin of life is a good introduction.

No no - that is completely fair enough. I am not really that educated on the minutia of evolution. However, i don't really think i need to be to still support what i am arguing.

I am not challening evolution per se, i am challening it as a more credible, 'scientific' way of interpreting our existence. As Zophen said, it is not the smaller issues i care about, more the overall ability of science to explain our existence any better than religion can.

You say there are a few theories out there regarding the origin of evolution? Well, until such time as a definitive theory can actually explain evolution's own beginnings, then i maintain believing in the theory as a way of defining humanity requires just as much faith as religion.

Let me know when it has an answer though:p
 
^ Those are answers that may never be completely or satisfactorily explained away. Just one of those frustrating things about existence.

I agree with you Candyslut about data etc. manipulatable which is why peer review exists. If someone is being dodgy it will (sooner generally than later) be found out.

Once a scientist is discredited for for manipulating results he/she will find it hard to ever publish a paper again.

Reasons for peer review

A rationale for peer review is that it is rare for an individual author or research team to spot every mistake or flaw in a complicated piece of work. This is not because deficiencies represent needles in a haystack, but because in a new and perhaps eclectic intellectual product, an opportunity for improvement may stand out only to someone with special expertise or experience. For both grant-funding and publication in a scholarly journal, it is also normally a requirement that the work is both novel and substantial. Therefore showing work to others increases the probability that weaknesses will be identified, and with advice and encouragement, fixed. The anonymity and independence of reviewers is intended to foster unvarnished criticism and discourage cronyism in funding and publication decisions. However, as discussed below under the next section, US government guidelines governing peer review for federal regulatory agencies require that reviewer identity be disclosed under some circumstances.

In addition, since the reviewers are normally selected from experts in the fields discussed in the article, the process of peer review is considered critical to establishing a reliable body of research and knowledge. Scholars reading the published articles can only be expert in a limited area; they rely to some degree on the peer-review process to provide reliable and credible research that they can build upon for subsequent or related research. As a result, significant scandal ensues when an author is found to have falsified the research included in an article, as many other scholars, and the field of study itself, may have relied upon that research (see Peer review and fraud below).

Peer review and fraud

Peer review, in scientific journals, assumes that the article reviewed has been honestly written, and the process is not designed to detect fraud. The reviewers usually do not have full access to the data from which the paper has been written and some elements have to be taken on trust. It is not usually practical for the reviewer to reproduce the author's work, unless the paper deals with purely theoretical problems which the reviewer can follow in a step-by-step manner.

The number and proportion of articles which are detected as fraudulent at review stage is unknown. Some instances of outright scientific fraud and scientific misconduct have gone through review and were detected only after other groups tried and failed to replicate the published results. An example is the case of Jan Hendrik Schön, in which a total of fifteen papers were accepted for publication in the top ranked journals Nature and Science following the usual peer review process. All fifteen were found to be fraudulent and were subsequently withdrawn. The fraud was eventually detected, not by peer review, but after publication when other groups tried and failed to reproduce the results of the paper.

More recently the Norwegian scientist Jon Sudbø published fraudulent articles in The Lancet. He is currently under investigation.

Although it is often argued that fraud cannot be detected during peer review, the Journal of Cell Biology uses an image screening process that it claims could have identified the apparently manipulated figures published in Science by Woo-Suk Hwang

And as for your above post that is my major point, belief in anything requires faith on some level. If I don't have faith that a bus will kill me then I will die if I step in front of one. Faith itself is a fundamental facet of the human brain, and necessary.

But saying that science requires as much faith as religion is preposterous. Faith in science is a measured bet, based on observation and reasoning, backed up by experiment and peer review.
 
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Let me know when it has an answer though


This pretty much the question I asked but he veers off tabgent and waxes lyrical about the pleasure of discovery whilst avoiding to respond to my assertion that it's not posssible to find the answer to the ultimate question !

wanna know why LP ?
 
i said less faith.

My issue is not with the requirement of faith. I understand it is elemental to human nature. My issue lies in the paradox of something that asserts itself as the scientific alternative to religion (as a means of explaining existence), and yet it fails to scientifically explain it's own existence.

I am not anti-evolution. I am just anti people thinking it is a purely scientific (and thus more credible) alternative to religion. To me, it is just another belief system, but not one necessarily more credible than religion.
 
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I'm not really understanding your point although you are making it clearly enough. If the the origin of life is not 100 percent explainable as of yet would you prefer someone just made up an answer? It happened 3.8 billion years ago, there's not data just lying around to be investigated. Someone needs to devise an experiment that can prove it. Believe me, these things are in the works:

Alive! The race to create life from scratch

YOU might think Norman Packard is playing God. Or you might see him as the ultimate entrepreneur. As founder and CEO of Venice-based company ProtoLife, Packard is one of the leaders of an ambitious project that has in its sights the lofty goal of life itself. His team is attempting what no one else has done before: to create a new form of living being from non-living chemicals in the lab.

Breathing the spark of life into inanimate matter was once regarded as a divine prerogative. But now several serious and well-funded research groups are working hard on doing it themselves. If one of them succeeds, the world will have met alien life just as surely as if we had encountered it on Mars or Europa. That first alien meeting will help scientists get a better handle on what life really is, how it began, what it means to be alive and even whether there are degrees of "aliveness". "We want to demonstrate what the heck life is by constructing it," says Packard's business partner and colleague Steen Rasmussen, a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. "If we do that, we're going to have a very big party. The first team that does it is going to get the Nobel prize."

Although the experiments are still in the earliest stages, some people, especially those with strong religious beliefs, feel uneasy at the thought of scientists taking on the role of creators. Others worry about safety - what if a synthetic life form escaped from the lab? How do we control the use of such technology?

Finding a way to address these worries will have benefits beyond helping scientists answer the basic questions of life. The practical pay-offs of creations like Rasmussen's could be enormous. Synthetic life could be used to build living technologies: bespoke creatures that produce clean fuels or help heal injured bodies. The potential of synthetic organisms far outstrips what genetic engineering can accomplish today with conventional organisms such as bacteria. "The potential returns are very, very large - comparable to just about anything since the advent of technology," says Packard. And there is no doubt that there is big money to be made too.

Only a few research groups have explicitly set themselves the goal of making a synthetic life form (see "Race for the ultimate prize" - bottom). Most are adapting bits and pieces from existing organisms. ProtoLife's plans are the most ambitious and radical of all. They focus on Rasmussen's brainchild, which he has nicknamed the Los Alamos Bug. Still but a gleam in its creator's eye, the Bug will be built up from first principles, using chemicals largely foreign to existing creatures. "You somehow have to forget everything you know about life," says Rasmussen. "What we have is the simplest we could dream up."

To achieve this radical simplicity, Rasmussen and his colleagues had to begin with the most basic of questions: what is the least something must do to qualify as being alive? Biologists and philosophers struggled to answer that question for decades (New Scientist, 13 June 1998, p 38). However, most now agree that one key difference - perhaps the only one - between life and non-life is Darwinian evolution. For something to be alive, it has to be capable of leaving behind offspring whose characteristics can be refined by natural selection. That requires some sort of molecule to carry hereditary information, as well as some sort of process - elementary metabolism - for natural selection to act upon. Some kind of container is also needed to bind these two components together long enough for selection to do its work.

Containment, heredity, metabolism; that's it in a nutshell. Put those together in the simplest way possible, and you've got the Los Alamos Bug. But every step is completely different from what we're used to (see graphic - the four stages shown are described further in "The Los Alamos Bug" - below).

Take containment, for example. Terrestrial life is always water-based, essentially a watery gel of molecules enclosed within an oily membrane. Modern cells move nutrients across this membrane with the help of an array of different proteins embedded in the membrane. The Los Alamos Bug, however, is completely different. For a start it is oil-based, little more than a droplet of fatty acids. "Instead of having a bag with all the good stuff inside, think of having a piece of chewing gum," says Rasmussen. "Then you stick the metabolic molecules and genetic molecules into the chewing gum, so they are attached on the surface or sitting inside the chewing gum."

The bare necessities

The container is the easy part. The next step - heredity - is where most efforts to create synthetic life get bogged down. The challenge is to create a molecule complex enough to carry useful genetic information, which can also replicate. In modern organisms DNA has a whole army of enzymes to help it replicate its genetic information - far too complicated a process for the Bug. Instead, Rasmussen plans to use a molecule called peptide nucleic acid, or PNA. It uses the same "letters" of genetic code as DNA, but has two forms, one soluble only in fat, the other also attracted to water. Rasmussen hopes to put PNA's dual nature to use in a rudimentary form of replication (see Graphic).

The Bug's metabolism has also been pared down to the minimum. The researchers plan to "feed" it with chemicals that can be converted into fatty acids. If enough are produced, the droplet will grow and divide into two. A similar metabolic process turns PNA precursors into functional PNA.

Although most of the design is still on the drawing board or in the earliest stages of experimentation, the team has made most progress with the Bug's metabolism. "If you look at the individual pieces, they are all sort of demonstrated in the lab. But if you put everything together, not yet," says Liaohai Chen, a biochemist at Argonne National Laboratory near Chicago, who heads Rasmussen's experimental team. If all goes according to plan, these three components - container, genome and metabolism - should fit together to provide all the essentials for Darwinian evolution.

In October 2004, Rasmussen landed a large grant from Los Alamos to begin making the Bug a reality. "I can't promise that we'll have it in three years, but I can guarantee that we'll have good progress," he says. The biggest problem may be coordinating the copying of the PNA and the metabolism of the fatty acid precursors so that replication of the genome proceeds at the same pace as the growth of the droplets. "Almost always when you put processes together there are cross-reactions, things that your theories won't tell you about."

Life support

Another fledgling research programme, known as Programmable Artificial Cell Evolution, or PACE, could provide the solution to this coordination challenge. Packard and Rasmussen are collaborating with PACE, which is focusing some of its attention on Rasmussen's design. A key idea behind PACE is to deliver precise amounts of particular chemicals to synthetic cells at specific places and times using computers to precisely control the flow of tiny amounts of chemicals. For example, a computer could use sensors to monitor the rates of PNA replication and fatty acid production in Rasmussen's experimental system, then deliver the correct amounts of each precursor. That would let researchers work out the kinks one by one in a controlled, programmable setting, providing something rather like a life-support machine that helps artificial cells through the critical steps towards becoming alive. "Once we have our hybrid unit, then we can successively withdraw the machine to approach a stand-alone cell," says John McCaskill, a chemist at Ruhr University in Bochum, Germany, who heads the PACE programme.

In this way the PACE team plans eventually to evolve its way towards a self-supporting artificial cell. To do that, though, the team will need a way to recognise the system's first tentative steps down the pathway to life. But how do you recognise something faintly lifelike, when it looks nothing like the life we know?

Look for the footprints of adaptation, says Mark Bedau, a philosopher who specialises in the boundary between life and non-life. Bedau is on leave from Reed College in Oregon to work with Packard at ProtoLife. If something is evolving then it should be generating adaptations - novel solutions to the problems of the world. And those new solutions, however subtle and incremental, become the foundation from which evolution takes its next steps. Adaptations which confer some advantage should last longer and spread faster than other variations.

Bedau is developing statistical tests which will pick up these kinds of patterns in unfamiliar life forms. But since the PACE project has not yet begun lab experiments, he does not know whether the tests can detect the glimmerings of real life. However, he has road-tested them on a system that works in a similar way, namely human culture.

In 2002, Bedau and colleague Andre Skusa sifted through more than five years of US patent records, counting the number of times each patent has been cited as a basis for later patents. They found that a few patents - such as the one enabling a web browser to display an ad while loading the main page - were cited far more often than one would expect if the differences found in the number of citations for inventions were random. These key innovations are the equivalent of biological adaptations such as opposable thumbs. "That gives you reason to think it should be possible to do the same kind of thing in chemical systems which are not yet alive but might be on the path to being alive," says Bedau.

Using tests like these, the PACE team hopes to see its hybrid gradually become more and more lifelike. But at what point would it actually become alive? Perhaps at no particular point, says Bedau, who thinks it is quite possible that the living and the non- living are separated not by a clear, distinct line but by a wide grey area in which the Bug is partly but not totally alive. "There are shades of grey, and I imagine measuring how dark the grey is," he says. "Our conception of what life is will evolve as we learn more and acquire the ability to make things that are more and more alive."

The moment when a blob of molecules becomes a fully living, evolving being is at least several years off. "Even our optimists wouldn't put a time horizon much sooner than 10 years for that kind of achievement," says Packard. Indeed, sceptics wonder whether the Los Alamos Bug and its ilk will ever yield anything useful. "It's certainly interesting from the conceptual point of view," says Pier Luigi Luisi, a biochemist at the University of Rome 3 and an expert on synthetic life. "But nature with nucleic acids and enzymes is so much smarter, because these are products that have been optimised over billions of years of evolution. To pretend to do life with simple chemistry is a nice ambitious idea, but it's probably not going to be very efficient."

Still, if Packard, Rasmussen and their colleagues do someday succeed in creating synthetic life forms, they will have opened the door to a world of new possibilities. "We are breaking the last barriers between us and living technology," says Rasmussen. "That's going to be a very big thing. It's going to happen, no doubt about it."

Among the most obvious payoffs could be organisms custom-designed to break down toxic compounds or produce useful chemicals such as hydrogen fuel. More conventional organisms can be genetically modified to do these tasks, but as Rasmussen points out, "the problem is these guys have evolved for billions of years. They're extremely versatile, and it's very difficult to keep them on task." An artificial organism, on the other hand, could in principle be built to do nothing but the task at hand, yet still have the evolutionary flexibility to adapt to changing conditions.

Packard hopes that this controlled adaptability could lead to even greater things. He envisions living pharmaceuticals that deliver drugs to us in an intelligent, adaptive way, or diagnostic life forms that could roam our bodies collecting information and watching for signs of a problem. The ultimate goal would be machines that repair themselves as living beings do - even computers that can handle incredibly complex calculations while coping with inevitable errors, just as our bodies tolerate errors and failures within our hundreds of billions of cells.

If life is all about the ability to evolve and adapt, then living technologies always have the potential to surprise us with unexpected new strategies that can take them beyond our control. But then again, that risk is nothing new. We already grapple with it when contemplating what would happen if robots or artificial intelligence were to get out of hand and in evaluating the safety of genetically modified fish, crossbred potatoes or even introduced rabbits. Indeed, for the foreseeable future, synthetic life probably poses much less of an escape risk, because the early versions, at least, will be so fragile and require so much life support. That means the safety of synthetic life is something to keep an eye on, not to be frightened of. "There isn't going to be some precipice we're going to fall over," says Bedau. "We'll be slowly inching our way down, and we'll have lots of opportunity to turn around."

As well as concerns about safety, synthetic life raises some profound ethical and religious issues. "Just the fact that you're making life from scratch will give some people pause. They will think that's a prerogative that humans should never take," says Bedau. If humans can create life on their own, doesn't that remove one of the last deep mysteries of existence, in effect prying God's fingers from one of his last remaining levers to affect the world?
“Our conception of what life is will evolve as we learn more and acquire the ability to make things that are more and more alive”

Not necessarily, say theologians. "We are fully a part of nature, and as natural beings who are living and creating synthetic life, we are in a sense life creating more life, which is what's been going on in evolution for 4 billion years now," says John Haught, a Catholic theologian at Georgetown University in Washington DC. "And that does not in principle rule out that God would still be creating life using natural causes - namely us - which is the way in which theology understands God as always operating in the world."

One thing seems certain; synthetic life will provide philosophers with plenty to chew on right from the start. Until now, efforts to come up with a good definition of life have been hampered by the fact that we are trying to generalise from just one example, the life that arose here on Earth. Having a second form, completely independent and based on different chemistry, should give a new perspective on this age-old question. And knowing what did or did not work in the lab, may also help us understand the origin of life - the first version, that is - on Earth.

The Los Alamos Bug

Containment This relies on the fact that oil and water do not mix. The components of each individual Bug are contained by a droplet of fatty acids, suspended in a watery solution enclosed by a test tube. Each fatty acid molecule has a negatively charged head which is attracted to water and which faces out into the watery environment, and a water-hating oily tail facing inward.

Heredity Instead of DNA the Bug has short stretches of peptide nucleic acid, or PNA. Like DNA, PNA is made of two intertwining strands containing the genetic "letters" A, T, C and G. And like DNA, the sequences of letters on these stands complement each other. A pairs up with T and C pairs with G.

The strands have a peptide backbone which does not carry an electrical charge, so will dissolve in fat. This means that the molecules of PNA prefer to face the inside of the fatty acid droplet, like crumbs embedded in the surface of a piece of chewing gum.

This gives the molecule unusual mobility. In its usual double-stranded form, with its two peptide backbones facing outwards, a PNA molecule is completely fat-soluble, so it will sink into the oily centre of the Bug's droplet. But above some critical temperature, the two strands of the PNA double helix separate spontaneously. When this happens, the bases, which bear a slight charge, are exposed and attracted to the Bug's watery environment.

So these single-stranded PNA molecules should then migrate to the edge of the droplet where the backbone can remain in the oil while the bases interact with the water outside.

This mobility provides the handle needed to control replication. The plan is to supply the Bug with short bits of single-stranded PNA precursors, just half the length of its tiny genome. If a single-stranded PNA gene on the Bug's surface encounters two of these "nutrient" PNAs with the right base sequences, it will pair with them to form a double-stranded PNA molecule. This should then sink down into the droplet, where conditions favour the joining-up of the two "nutrient" fragments into a whole strand.

Eventually, the double-stranded molecule will dissociate once again and its two strands drift back to the surface where each can pick up new partners - a rudimentary form of replication.

Metabolism The third essential part of the Bug's life - metabolism - has also been pared to its barest minimum. The researchers plan to "feed" the Bug with fatty acid precursors. These will have photosensitive molecules attached their charged "head" ends. These photosensitive caps mask the charged head, making the molecules completely fat soluble. This means they will tend to collect within the Bug's droplets.

When light strikes the photosensitive cap, it breaks off, exposing the negatively charged fatty acid head, which migrates back to the surface of the droplet. Eventually, so many new fatty acids will be produced that they will not all fit on the surface and the droplet will split in two to create a larger surface area.

The Bug will also be supplied with inactive PNA precursors bound to a photosensitive molecule. Once again, when light strikes this photosensitiser, it breaks off to release the active PNA fragment.

Effective metabolism also requires one more step to prevent the photosensitive molecule, once broken off, from re-sticking to the fatty acid or PNA and so deactivating it once again. The PNA genetic material prevents this by acting as a rudimentary wire, conducting electrons to neutralise the photosensitiser. In this way, the Bug's "genome" plays an active role in the metabolic process.

Evolution If all goes according to plan, these three components - container, genome, metabolism - should fit together to provide all the essentials for Darwinian evolution. As the Bugs grow and reproduce, corralled in a test tube, natural selection should favour PNA base sequences that pair up and split off fastest, and also conduct electrons most efficiently to the photosensitisers.

Synthetic slaves Artificial organisms could be custom-built for particular tasks:

#

break down toxic compounds
#

produce useful chemicals such as hydrogen fuel
#

act as "living pharmaceuticals", delivering drugs in the body in an adaptive way
#

be tiny diagnosticians, roaming our bodies, collecting information and checking for problems
#

become part of machines that can repair themselves as living beings do
From issue 2486 of New Scientist magazine, 12 February 2005, page 28

But...

Why does not having the answer yet make it any less valid as an alternative to a religious means of explaining existence, when religious means are clearly made up sans evidence?

Trying to work out something that happened 3.8 billion years ago is a lot harder than some tool making up a pretty story. And therein is the reason why science is more valid than religion.
 
MR Candyslut said:
blind faith in science

that's a fucking t-shirt right there
i give it two weeks
mr candyslut, may i ask, are you religious?
 
Not at all. i am not necessarily advocating religion as superior. It just irritates me that evolution is seen as such a superior,
more credible, alternative to religion when it has just as much trouble explaining its own existence.
 
LP imo the concept of creating artificial life is fucking terrifying. Some things should be left in Gods hands, or Jebus' or Allahs or Orwells or whoever the fuck else but NOT in ours..

Not at all. i am not necessarily advocating religion as superior. It just irritates me that evolution is seen as such a superior,
more credible, alternative to religion when it has just as much trouble explaining its own existence.

Well said ^
 
Every now and then I'll need to ship a piece of IT equipment to somebody in another state, and I'll print off their address on an A4 sheet of paper to stick to the box. I position the sheet of paper neatly, and then reel off a 30cm long piece of sticky tape. As i go to stick down one side of the sheet, as the sticky tape is about 2cm away the sheet of paper jumps up off the box to greet it and ruins the alignment. I'm sure it has something to do with the bernoulli effect, but it both annoys and fascinates me.
 
I am not anti-evolution. I am just anti people thinking it is a purely scientific (and thus more credible) alternative to religion. To me, it is just another belief system, but not one necessarily more credible than religion.

Oh yeah? How about the rationale behind each?

sciencevsfaith.png


From our very own Bluelight Gallery

Science vs Faith


Perhaps you'd like to spend a few long hours listening some of the world's most recognised scientists explaining their views. There's also a speaker who attempts to integrate ideas of Darwinian evolution with those of creationism (Joan Roughgarden) and another who sheds some light on recent fascinating discoveries in neorology (VS Ramachandran).

I found it hard to pick who was my favourite speaker, but Neil de Grasse Tyson would be right up there. An amazingly inspiring man. Sam Harris presents his views which are based on a rational scientific appraoch to faith. Sam practices Buddhist meditaion yet despises religionous dogma. He's a great speaker and writer . Then there's Steven Weinberg, an all time hero of us Atheists. He cuts through the BS, to open the presentation with the raw science based argument I've come to know him by.

If you like to be left thinking, then spend the time and listen to these great people put forward their points of view.

Beyond Belief
 
I don't believe in Jesus son of God/Allah is great/ Let me hug you with all my pairs of arms religions. I do believe in the battle between good vs evil. If people stopped and looked around for one second they may realise that we are the Gods. No other organism has such a profound influence on the planet and we are inching closer to complete control over life. Hell eternal life is as easy as downloading a mind and adding this hard drive to a more durable vessel and then jetison it into the universe.

But the universe is not ready for a group of humans who haven't learn't the importance of love and compassion (can you feel the PLUR?) so until we have control of our own existence we won't survive much past the solar system. Win the battle against evil and we will spread forth like the fingers of God.

Sorry doesn't prove evolution is king, but it is a little more female friendly while still allowing oysters and bacon sandwitches.;)
 
ValeTudo said:
LP imo the concept of creating artificial life is fucking terrifying. Some things should be left in Gods hands, or Jebus' or Allahs or Orwells or whoever the fuck else but NOT in ours..


Well no offence, but there you go, you don't believe in a specific god, but you still have this irrational fear left over from your Primary School scripture class. Why?

Creating artificial life in a lab. is essential to proving that life started from a series of chemical reactions. It's hardly going to jump from petri dish and conquer the world. The artificial life they are talking about is about the most basic form of life, it took millions of years of years for life on Earth to evolve even into multicellular organisms. Assuming something can be created artificially, it's hardly going to take over overnight.

Candyslut, I highly respect your opinion on most matters but you haven't told me anything that specifically outlines your case. What are your beliefs? Where are you coming from?

There are five steps (well outlined in Phase Dancer's flow chart) to scientific method. Observation > Theorising > Experiment > Peer Review > Accepted scientific theory. Religion stops at step 2. It is essentially outdated 2000 year old science that never made the grade. That's why science is superior to religious reasoning.

And the biggest joke ever that Zophen brushed upon is that religion is essential for a moralistic life. I have a more finely tuned set of morals than most people I interact with daily, all created from thinking of the world objectively, not because the bible tell me that's the way to behave.
 
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I think Buddhism and Science are a lot more compatible than Western religion and science. I'm not a believer in Buddhism but I think some of the underlying naturalistic principles in it are respectable. Kim Stanley Robinson explores these ideas in his latest trilogy (Science in the Capital trilogy). A Great read, and very informative on the climate change issue.

Stop Meditating, start interacting

THERE has never been a better time to ask whether religion and science can ever coexist. Both are concerned with truth. For science, truth is constantly updated on the basis of theory backed by experiment, whereas for religion it is based on dogma in which we must have faith. Yet in 2005 the Dalai Lama, leader of one of the world's great religions, was invited by thousands of neuroscientists to address their conference in Washington DC.

Before we bring down the wrath of Dawkins, the reason the Dalai Lama could appear there is simple: Buddhism is not like other religions. Because the Buddha said: "My words are to be accepted after examining them, not out of respect for me," Buddhists are free to look askance at dogma and be open to the findings of science. This openness has fostered a long-standing interest in linking Buddhist teachings to science, in particular to the mysteries of quantum physics.

But why would Buddhists be attracted to neuroscience, a more down-to-earth field? Should neuroscientists return their interest? As a practising neuroscientist, my answer is: yes, up to point, but don't expect too much.
“Why would Buddhists be attracted to down-to-earth neuroscience?”

The new books by Sharon Begley and B. Alan Wallace are the latest of a recent crop touching on the links between Buddhism and neuroscience. Don't pay too much attention to their covers or titles. Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain is not marketing some dubious New Age therapy but is a clearly written account of recent discoveries about brain plasticity as presented by leading neuroscientists at meetings with the Dalai Lama. Contemplative Science, on the other hand, tells us nothing about the brain but castigates scientists for their materialism and their failure to develop tools for studying the mind. It also argues for building on Buddhist practices by setting up a subdiscipline of contemplative science - a bad idea, for reasons that will become obvious.

Why is the Dalai Lama (who wrote the foreword to Begley's book) interested in brain plasticity? Begley has some clear answers. Until recently, neuroscientists believed the adult brain's structure was irrevocably fixed. Then research into the brains of songbirds showed they expand each year during the nesting season as the birds perfect their songs, and then shrink again in winter. Similar expansion has been seen in jugglers' brains and in London taxi drivers acquiring "the knowledge" - their "internal map" of the city.

This plasticity does not simply involve an increase in the size of brain regions that are intensively used. It also turns out that brain regions can change their function. If you are born blind, say, your visual neurons will not remain idle: in fact, you can be trained to "see" by attaching a video camera to a device that stimulates your tongue with a pattern of points corresponding to the images. After training, stimulating the tongue causes activity in visual neurons. If these neurons are stimulated directly, you will not see flashes, but feel tingles in your tongue.

These results are not only dramatic evidence of plasticity in adult brains but also demonstrate the intimate relationship between brain and mind, Begley reminds us. They show how changes in brain structure and function influence our conscious experience.

What about the mind influencing the brain? This is what really excites the Dalai Lama. Every year or two, at his base in Dharamsala, northern India, he hosts discussions with neuroscientists, and in 2004 the subject was neuroplasticity. The Dalai Lama told his visitors: "I am interested in the extent to which the mind itself, and specific subtle thoughts, may have an influence on the brain." Behind this lies a deeper question about the relevance to science of the meditative practices that form a major part of Tibetan Buddhism.

So could intensive practice in meditation affect the brain? Might meditation prove a useful adjunct to cognitive behavioural therapy in treating mental disorders, for example? Such a link is in fact already being studied in research centres worldwide.

As to brain plasticity and how far the mind affects the brain and body, there is evidence that just imagining practising a skill can improve that skill. For example, if for about 10 minutes a day you imagine moving your little finger, after four weeks its strength can increase by 22 per cent.

How can we understand this link between the mental and the physical? This is where I part company with the neuro-Buddhist approach. Wallace, in his book, repeatedly emphasises the difference between the objective physical world and the subjective mental world. He says we have direct contact with the physical word through our senses and through such scientific instruments as telescopes. Meanwhile, he argues, our contact with the non-material mental world can only come through introspection. Scientists, he complains, have expended little effort on developing the powers of introspection. In contrast, through their meditative practices, Buddhists have built up such an impressive body of expertise in introspection that Wallace believes they might transform the scientific study of the mental world.

I disagree. I believe there is a much more basic approach to the study of the physical and the mental than Wallace - or Begley - would have us believe. For me, the question is not about how science or Buddhism approaches these problems, but how each individual acquires knowledge of both the everyday physical world (in which I successfully reach for my glass of wine), and the everyday mental world (in which I successfully anticipate your wish for a glass).

The obvious answer is that we use our brains and our sense organs to obtain this knowledge. From this perspective, there is no difference between the physical and the mental. The problem with the mental world is that I can never get inside your mind to check whether I have correctly inferred your wishes. But, as the philosopher Immanuel Kant pointed out, we have the same problem with the physical world: we can never check that our sensory experiences resemble it since we have no independent means of knowing it.

Our brains solve both these problems in the same way, but, like most brain work, largely without our awareness. Our brains are continually constructing models of the world and making predictions from them. If I think there is a wine glass in front of me, my brain predicts how I can move my arm to reach it and how it will feel when I touch it. If my predictions are wrong, if it is warm sake not chilled wine, I adjust my model. When errors in my brain's predictions are sufficiently tiny, then I have a good model of the world.

It is this model of the world I am aware of, not the world itself. Is this model true? It doesn't matter because as long as my brain can successfully predict what is going to happen next, I will survive.

I can use the same system in the mental world. I predict what you are going to do or say, and adjust my model of your mind on the basis of how good my predictions turn out to be. But unlike the physical world, you are also making a model of my mind, and by aligning each other's models through prediction we can communicate ideas. It is only when people can share models of the world that we can wonder about the truth of these models.

Some models are better than others because they make better predictions and so are closer to the truth. This is why I find it strange that both these books say so little about interactions between people. It is only by studying interacting minds, rather than meditating minds, that we are going to make any progress in such difficult areas as consciousness and free will.
Chris Frith is a neuroscientist at the Wellcome Trust Centre for Neuroimaging at University College London. His book Making Up the Mind: How the brain creates our mental world is published by Blackwell this month
From issue 2591 of New Scientist magazine, 17 February 2007, page 50-51
 
Interesting stuff lostpunk5545.

What has impressed me regarding the Dalai Lama, is that he is prepared to accept established science over ancient Buddhist beliefs and so therefore will change the system to fit the science. It's mentioned by several speakers in the Beyond Belief videos that the Dalai Lama is himself studying science. That presents a major difference to dogmatic belief systems, which are more accurately reflected in the above chart.

As mentioned, VS Ramachandran when speaking at Beyond Belief mentions how the brain can be electrically stimulated in the temporal lobe region to artificially create a seizure. Just what do some people experience visually while undergoing this stimulation?

Why do people experience religious visions? In some cases the cause may be a strange brain disorder. Controversial new research suggests that whether we believe in a God may not just be a matter of free will. Scientists now believe there may be physical differences in the brains of ardent believers. Inspiration for this work has come from a group of patients who have a brain disorder called temporal lobe epilepsy. In a minority of patients, this condition induces bizarre religious hallucinations - something that patient Rudi Affolter has experienced vividly. Despite the fact that he is a confirmed atheist, when he was 43, Rudi had a powerful religious vision which convinced him he had gone to hell. "I was told that I had gone there because I had not been a devout Christian, a believer in God. I was very depressed at the thought that I was going to remain there forever."

Gwen Tighe also has the disorder. When she had a baby, she believed she had given birth to Jesus. It was something her husband Berny found very difficult to understand. "She said, isn't it nice to be part of the holy family? I thought, holy family? It then turned out she thought I was Joseph, she was Mary and that little Charlie was Christ."

Professor VS Ramachandran, of the University of California in San Diego, believed that the temporal lobes of the brain were key in religious experience. He felt that patients like Rudi and Gwen could provide important evidence linking the temporal lobes to religious experience. So he set up an experiment to compare the brains of people with and without temporal lobe epilepsy. He decided to measure his patients' changes in skin resistance, essentially measuring how much they sweated when they looked at different types of imagery. What Professor Ramachandran discovered to his surprise was that when the temporal lobe patients were shown any type of religious imagery, their bodies produced a dramatic change in their skin resistance. "We found to our amazement that every time they looked at religious words like God, they'd get a huge galvanic skin response."

This was the very first piece of clinical evidence revealing that the body's response to religious symbols was definitely linked to the temporal lobes of the brain. "What we suggested was that there are certain circuits within the temporal lobes which have been selectively activated in these patients and somehow the activity of these specific neural circuits makes them more prone to religious belief."

Scientists now believe famous religious figures in the past could also have been sufferers from the condition. St Paul and Moses appear to be two of the most likely candidates. But most convincing of all is the evidence from American neurologist Professor Gregory Holmes. He has studied the life of Ellen G White, who was the spiritual founder of the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Today, the movement is a thriving church with over 12 million members. During her life, Ellen had hundreds of dramatic religious visions which were key in the establishment of the church, helping to convince her followers that she was indeed spiritually inspired. But Professor Holmes believes there may be another far more prosaic explanation for her visions. He has discovered that at the age of nine, Ellen suffered a severe blow to her head. As a result, she was semi-conscious for several weeks and so ill she never returned to school. Following the accident, Ellen's personality changed dramatically and she became highly religious and moralistic. And for the first time in her life, she began to have powerful religious visions.

Professor Holmes is convinced that the blow to Ellen's head caused her to develop temporal lobe epilepsy. "Her whole clinical course to me suggested the high probability that she had temporal lobe epilepsy. This would indicate to me that the spiritual visions she was having would not be genuine, but would be due to the seizures." Professor Holmes' diagnosis is a shattering one for the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Their spokesman, Dr Daniel Giang, is a neurologist as well as a member of the church. He dismisses the claims, insisting the visions started too long after the accident to have been caused by it. He goes on to say: "Ellen White's visions lasted from 15 minutes to three hours or more. She never apparently had any briefer visions - that's quite unusual for seizures."

We will never know for sure whether religious figures in the past definitely did have the disorder but scientists now believe the condition provides a powerful insight into revealing how religious experience may impact on the brain. They believe what happens inside the minds of temporal lobe epileptic patients may just be an extreme case of what goes on inside all of our minds. For everyone, whether they have the condition or not, it now appears the temporal lobes are key in experiencing religious and spiritual belief.

link


Just as interesting perhaps is that Richard Dawkins claims that he is one of those who doesn't experience any religious visions or figures.

So, has Dawkins got the "normal" brain? If yes, what does that imply for those who are religious, have religious visions etc.?
 
S
orry doesn't prove evolution is king, but it is a little more female friendly while still allowing oysters and bacon sandwitches.


I like that !
 
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